Duck_Pond

I see a great deal of thought has gone into the list from the Sun. How Phil Taylor or Jack Nicklaus can be considered athletes is beyond me.

In terms of athletic ability, what about gymnasts, decathletes (sp?), skiers, ballet dancers, marathon runners, and those nutters who do the endurance races etc?

Lance is a great athlete though, and I applaud him for his amazing achievements and record of success in the Tour De France. It's just shame that there are so many jealous, narrow-minded people out there who refuse to believe that he might actually be good at what he does, without cheating.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

TelBoy

Unfortunately, D_P, achievement at the highest level doesn't have the greatest reputation for being unassisted. SO MANY kids these days want to be the next big money-earning thing, they'll do *anything* to achieve it. Of course, i've been involved with a sport where performance enhancing drugs are almost mandatory, but their use in a whole range of other activities is more widespread than many people care to imagine, or believe.

When Ben Johnson broke the 100m world record, i genuinely thought i was watching something incredible. I was gutted to learn it was all drug-assisted.

Having said that, there are certainly a core of top athletes who strenuously claim to be clean, including Michael Jordan, Paule Radcliffe, Jonathan Edwards, Ian Thorpe and of course Lance Armstrong. I hope, genuinely hope, that we haven't been duped all along.

Duck_Pond

"Of course, i've been involved with a sport where performance enhancing drugs are almost mandatory"

Do you really need such drugs to achieve greatness in Gnome Hurling?

TelBoy

anc-sti

I've raced bikes since childhood, still do and reckon I have a fair bit of experience in this area. I'm sorry to say if you think pro cycling is a clean sport then you are greatly mistaken. Lance is an outstanding athlete but if you think he or any other cyclist at that level has been clean throughout their career then I'm afraid you have got the blinkers on. (DAVID MILLER our supremely talented world time trial champion, Oh dear!!!!)



His ex-doc (Lance) is publicly saying he uses doping products (could be sour grapes), the team used a product for there first two or three tours which is now banned but wasn't at the time (basically a natural steroid).



EPO (allows blood to carry more oxygen) is undetectable so they test your red blood cell level. This level is set at a cut off point of about 52% amazingly most pro's will be 50% hmmm. This is not a natural level but it has to be set at this point because it can from time to time get to this level because of factors such as altitude causing the body to naturally produce more red blood cells.



The fact is cycle racing has always been prone to this sort of abuse because it is so bloody hard.

Its a shame really but the sport isn't really interested is exposing the doping for fear or destroying the appeal and credibility to the public.



Sorry, but that's the way it is don't kid yourself otherwise.

Walwal

His book dropped on my doormat as promised (see earlier post).

I'm not a great reader of books (I don't mean I'm not good at reading just haven't got the patience to sit for an hour wading thro print ).

Started at 5.00 yesterday, by 6.00 tonight, I was 160 pages in. I've never read so much in such a short period of time.

What he went thro must have been Hell. I'm just past where he had his chemo. A nice touch was where his sponsors (Nike, Giro etc) stuck by him even tho they didn't know whether he'd live or die. Cofidis were a bit naughty, but again, they might have been paying for a corpse.

A friend of my sister has just found out recently that she's got breast cancer. I've told my sister she can borrow the book, even tho every case is different, it might give her things to think about, and to never give up, cos it IS beatable.

Hope she takes up my offer, cos although I'm only halfway thro the book, it's made me think about stuff.

I think the man is class, clean or not.

Andy.

anc-sti

Agreed

TelBoy

*That's* the bit i'd struggle with to be honest - how much of his "class" is due to stuff we don't know about? Although i'm assuming, from the ease with which he wins, that he'd still be winning the TDF, even if it could be guaranteed everybody in the field was clean as a whistle...

anc-sti

Yes I believe he would, the fact is at that level they will all have access to the same or similar aids. As would Merckx, Hinault, Anquetil and Indurain before him.
Don't get me wrong I'm not dissing the guy he is the greatest cyclist of his and arguably any generation, its cycling as a sport that is in the wrong.
I am a fan, I have the top and the bike in postal colours, but don't think cycling is a clean sport, or athletics for that matter!

PeeOne

Innocent until proven guilty guys? Imagine if you had just achieved the greatest thing ever in your sport, and instead of everyone being happy for you, they just start a witch hunt accusing you of being on drugs. Only Lance knows the truth as to whether he has or hasn't taken anything, but I can see no reason to believe that he has. The guy is a legend, and I couldn't be happier for him-after all the insults and false accusations he has been through being a pro cyclist, he deserves all the fame and glory that he gets. A true champion if ever I saw one.

anc-sti

Yes a true champion but if you really think they are totally clean a that level you are kidding yourself, sorry.

As said earlier I am not singling out Lance, it’s cycling that has the problem. As in the news last night most of these drugs are undetectable and that’s why they don't get caught.



The tragedy of this is that these drugs have a flip side; EPO can cause blood clots and subsequent heart failure. 5 young pro's die in their sleep last year (remember these are fit people), this is the side of cycling that the governing bodies try to hide.

imlach

I'll repeat what I said before.

The average lifespan of a professional cyclist is something like 57 years old. Fit and healthy people don't die at an average age of 57

imlach

Interesting article here

http://www.iconocast.com/H/Health7-15-4/HealthNews1.htm

Oh, and an article about the first rumoured death from taking drugs in cycling - back in 1896 (yes, not 1996, but 1896!).

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...50/ai_63502475

Walwal

I've finished Armstrong's book in 2 days. Something of a record for me.

Very good read. Really enjoyed it.

Andy.

Ted Maul

I always thought cyclists died early due the 'Bruce Lee Syndrome' - too fit...

SomeDude

No hard fast rules there either I think. Merckx is in excellent shape this year, and did Alpe d'Huez the day before the race. He was still trying to win .

And yes, Merckx did get caught on drugs in the 70ties.

Many modern drugs are untracable, so you can never be "sure", but give the best drugs to an average athlete and he/she still won't win.

There is some **** hitting the fan related to US female track athletes though, quite a few of them won't be at the Olympics.

imlach

Of course, which is why Lance is still to be admired - he is the best of a bad bunch

If they were all 100% drug free, I'm sure Armstrong would still be one of the best.

I think the drug use in cycling is not so much about power gains, but more to aid & quicken recovery.....

SomeDude

That's what I was trying to say (in an admittedly heated post) in the other thread.

Now imagine, just for one second, that he *doesn't* do drugs

Some of the rest surely are, and yesterday another career came to an end ... a cyclist/olympic champion/world champion in Belgium as he admitted to have used quite a few things (Meirhaeghe)...

Recovery... agreed. But then again the tempo of the modern tour is just murder. It is *beyond* what normal people can endure.

anc-sti

Bang on, its not just about recovery EPO gives you real power it allows you to work at a higher VO max. Have you seen the interview with the Kelme rider who nearly died during a passed tour(can't remember his name) he describes the effect of EPO as like riding a motorbike "you can do 50 kph without any pain", Scary!

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

He definitely doped IMO. Should just admit it and let them use it as an example of why they need t clean up the sport.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13481408