BOB.T

I've taken the food out, thanks!

Will the salt take care of the Nitrite problem and should I put some salt in with the others? Also, by airstone I assume you mean the stones that you run an air pump through? We don't have a pump but have considered getting one.

andrewdelvard

:Types really quickly: You don't have a pump for any of the fish ??? Oh wow. LoL! Look go and buy one now. Just go to a shop, get some advice and set yourself up properly.

BOB.T

I'm gonna go to a different shop then cos the evil cowbag that we've been using till now said we wouldn't need a pump

ajm

We are working blind here really. Ideally you need to get a water test kit and post the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in the tank.

Most problems come back to water quality issues, whether it is direct poisoning due to ammonia or nitrite or disease brought about by low immunity due to the former.

Nitrite poisoning is usually accompanied by gulping at the surface because it bonds with the haemoglobin in the fish's blood and starves them of oxygen, similar to how carbon monoxide behaves with air breathers . Gills will tend to be a browner colour instead of a healthy oxygenated red.

IF it is nitrite poisoning then salt will help to relieve it, however without a water test it can be little more than guesswork.

This excellent article by DonH at piranha fury should tell you all you need to know about salt treatment: http://www.piranha-fury.com/informat...lt.php?id=salt

If your water quality is ok then from the symptoms you have described the most likely cause is a bacterial infection of the swim bladder, although it could be a multitude of other illnesses.

If they are in a tank with no filter, how often do you do water changes?

Dicke C

Had a goldfish (Kids call it Bubbles) for about a year, and never used a pump. Just change the water every 2 weeks...Chap in our shop said not to bother with a pump as well...

Dicke C

Delboy2

Salt will not remove Nitrites from the water - Get a small external filter/pump, add the filter media provided to the compartments and add a small amount of Nitrate reducing resin and some Zeolite. This will lower both the Nitrate and Nitrite levels and establish a biological filter. Some plants will lower the Nitrate levels naturally as will frequent water changes but with the latter the addtition of Chloramides will then be a problem


Cheers

ajm

I think we are all bombarding the poor bloke with information here. Until we can get a water test I think we are having to speculate wildly on water quality issues and can only advise on symptoms alone.

Re: Nitrites: salt *will* alleviate the symptoms of nitrite poisoning, although you are right in saying it will not actually remove nitrite from the water

Chorine/Chloramine is easily removed using sodium thiosulphate based water conditioners which should be a normal part of the water change routine. I mix up 200 litres of water and conditioner at a time for water changes!

Delboy2

The toxicity of nitrite is affected by salinity. In salty water, that is water with added sodium chloride, the gills will tend to take up chloride ions in preference to nitrite ions, thus offering some protection against nitrite poisoning. Adding ½ oz of salt per gallon, along with regular water changes should suffice as a short-term measure against poisoning, aeration should also be increased. The addition of salt will not remove the Nitrites from the water though as already stated
The water testing would be a good step in the right direction as already stated to establish the cause

Cheers

chiark

Bob, seems like you've got some sound advice here and I don't know about anyone else, but this is gripping stuff - better than any of the soaps any day!

Hope it all works out well for all involved.

BOB.T

Blimey, I didn't think you had to be a chemist to keep Goldfish! I'll get a test kit at lunch time.

I think we've done 2 water changes in about 3 months, sounds like that isn't often enough? In that time we've also changed some of the water though.

Many thanks guys

ajm

If it makes you feel better that is a very common reaction! If you want to keep fish to any sort of standard you really do need to understand the chemistry behind the nitrogen cycle at least, and knowledge of medication and the mechanisms by which they work is also very useful!

You also need to up those water changes. High water quality is of paramount importance to healthy fish. I would advise you do a few smallish (10%) water changes every few days for the next week and then go to between 10-20% every fortnight depending on how stocked the tank is. If your fish is to recover it will need pristine water conditions, and often that is all that is required!

Buy some water conditioner which will remove the chlorine/chloramine from the tap water and mix as directed when doing water changes. Try to avoid large changes in water, temp etc. as this can cause stress for the fish.

If you can get a water sample tested by buying a kit or taking a sample to an aquarium shop it would also be very useful in narrowing down the problem!

SomeDude

LOL, yeah, I can understand the "chemist" reaction

Non chemist approach...

OK, fish do **** in water. Through digestion, and also through the gills, they produce ammonia.

The more food, the more waste/toxic stuff that accumulates in water.

The higher the fish/water volume, the faster your water deteriorates.

Ammonia is highly toxic to fish.

Nature normally has ways to change ammonia into nitrite (less toxic, but still very toxic to our finned friends), and nitrite into nitrate (only toxic in very heavy concentrations). A bio filter can emulate nature.

Next to that, they really love oxygen. They suffocate if there isn't enough. The oxygen is not the air that we breathe, but is dissolved in the water.

Airstones or water movement help to dissolve oxygen into the water. They will also "blow out" other nasty gasses out of the water.

The friendly bacteria in your bio filter also luuurrve oxygen. They can't do their work without it.

Fish also like stable pH and temps. They get "stressed" when these swing about too much, which makes them more vulnerable for bacterial and parasitic nasties.

A big waterchange will seriously shock them, so 10 to 20 % a week (or every 2 weeks) will be better than just cleaning out the tank and starting all over.

Tap water can be of seriously varying quality BTW.

Take care of your water quality, and the water will take care of the fish.

See, no chemistry terms

chiark

You said pH! But I understood that one - cheers!

SomeDude

Dang, rumbled

TelBoy

Can't you go to a funfair at the weekend and win a new one?

SomeDude

Even buying a new one every week is cheaper than to actually take care of them, agreed.

But that would be cruelty to animals, and we of Scoobynet can't condone that can we

ajm

Love the "non chemist" approach SomeDude!

I saw on the news recently that they are planning to ban winning of animals in the UK, which (if it goes ahead) will mean no more goldfish at the funfair!

Its a shame in a way, but the goldfish is probably by far and away the most abused animal in the UK, and its mainly through ignorance rather than spite.

Edit: found a link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html

andrewdelvard

Sounds to me that you want the fish to have a good quality of life which is nice. Carp (goldfish) are an incredibly hardy fish and will put up with a lot. I do remember as a child the old lady who lived next door kept a fish on a book shelf in a bowl for years. Incredible. However thats not to say the fish had any quality of life....
Fish keeping really isn't that hard. Especially cold water fish like the carp. Honestly you can't fail. Have fun with it but remember the biggest killer of fish is stress. Things like noise and too much bright light. They just don't like it. Oh and they can live a long time. The oldest goldfish I have I've had since I was 18.
I'm now 37.

TelBoy

mj

LOL @ the bog seat - Goldfish Valhalla

SomeDude

At least the water changes would be easy

Andrew, IIRC wild carp can live up to 75 years. In captivity, carp/GF's can live to be about 25 years in good conditions. So yours still should have a few good years ahead of it

BOB.T

OK, filter / pump is installed and working (in main tank)

A water test has been carroed out and has found the following results,

PH 6.8
KH 3
GH >6
NO2 0
NO3 0

Now that doesn't mean much to me, hopefully it does to you guys!

There's no change with Fish...

ajm

Do you have an ammonia (NH4) reading? In a fully cycled tank you would expect NH4 and NO2 to be zero and NO3 should show at least a trace (as it is the end product of the nitrogen cycle)

The pH is fine really and I wouldn't worry too much about the hardness (GH) and buffering (KH) of the water for goldfish, your readings look about average from memory anyway.

SomeDude

Bob, the most important test is the NH3/NH4 one (ammonia) - was that included ?

KH is a bit low as is pH, but that has nothing to do with your sick fish. Once you have no more worries about the fish you might want to look into adding a bit of baking soda which will up both.

NO2 (nitrite) is undetectable which is good. Once your filter starts working (takes a few weeks actually) you will first see an N02 spike (bacteria consuming the ammonia and turn it into nitrite) and then you will see nitrate (NO3) building up (once other bacteria turn nitrite into nitrate)

The nitrate can be diluted with water changes as said above.

SomeDude

Crossposted

AJM, the only risk with such a relatively low KH and pH is what is known as a "pH crash". It's not likely to happen if you do many water changes, but I've seen it in a pond before and the results were awful (all fish went to fish heaven in one night)

KH does buffer pH (keep it stable)

Mind you, in Japan they keep low KH (3) for their prize koi as it enhances color & growth.

ajm

Yeah, I wasn't too fussed with the the KH and the pH because it is very unlikely they would be responsible for the symptoms that we are looking at. Koi isn't really my area of exertise, but 6.8 is not an unusual pH for water in the UK, in fact its about the same pH as the water in my tanks, although they have a bit of tannin in.

I guess the important thing for us is that we can see that the pH is low so we can infer that ammonia is also likely to be low (despite the resistance to acidity being a bit on the low side as per KH).

BOB.T

No, nuffin about NH, I knew I'd miss summat!

SomeDude

Agreed, no discussion there. Also agree in that the lower the pH, the less toxic the NH4.

Koi are just fancy carp, as are goldfish, and thrive in the same waterconditions (generally speaking). My koi have the habit of breeding with my (one) goldfish, so I have quite a few of those little ones around (they are sterile though, thank god)

Oh well, off to do my daily 1000 liter waterchange Sometimes I wished I never started this "little hobby"

SomeDude

Bob, without wanting to cost you a fortune, it's back to the shop then for you

NH test is probably the most important one.

BOB.T

We just spent 25 quid!

Good luck with your water change!