lem0ncurd

My main point was comparing the human digestive system to that of meat and non meat eating animals. It is quite clear from this comparison, that we neither have the teeth, claws or digestive system to eat meat, our digestive systems are obviously like that of non meat eating animals. It is no coincidence that man has to cook his meat in order to eat it.

As for Primates, I never mentioned Chimanzees?? I mentioned 'anthropoid apes' which live on the diet of fruits, nuts, and grains, much like prehistoric man will have done before he acquired a taste for meat.

I think people confuse the fact that, just because early man may have eaten meat, it does not mean that we are designed to eat it, or that it is good for us. Man has always taken to doing things for convenience, and will have adopted meat eating as an easier and less time consuming food source than picking nuts, berries and fruit. Added to the fact that a side of pig roasted over an open fire will have tasted a damn sight better than a pile of berries!

Diablo

"Flesh-eating carnivores have small salivary glands in their mouths because they do not need to predigest flesh"

Someone tell my dogs that. They will, and can, happily eat and digest raw meat. Drool like the fecking niagra falls in winter though....

Tiggs

milo...how old are you?

milo

im 25, why do u ask?

Tiggs

just curious.

between 16 and early 20's i trained very hard, did lots of steroids, ate lots of meat, etc, etc.

at 30 i have a few issues with my health that can be easily linked to either the extreem diet or the heavy lifting.....nothing serious but stuff that if i have to put up with for life will make me wonder if it was worth it.

with hindsight i would rather have weighed 18 stone not 20 but put my digestive system through slightly less strain!

T

milo

i have been training hard and eating like this for over 10 years now and (touch wood) havent had any problems to date. i get blood levels and liver values done every 3 months for safety (and to know when i can go back on).

i do absolutely anticipate having some health issues later in life if i keep increasing my mass and the weights im lifting (which naturally arent great for joints as i train like a powerlifter.. i.e. heavy and explosive for max effort exercises). but i love it too much so will take that risk... plus i live life very clean in other aspects (i.e. no drinking, no smoking, no recreational drugs etc).

incidently, a lot of the health issues can be related to actually carrying around the mass, and the strain on internal organs to support the mass, rather than the method of gaining that mass. not that thats any comfort to you now of course.

but sorry to hear of the problems you've had.. hope its nothing serious. good to hear from another fellow lifter on here.. hope you're still lifting these days

Tiggs

nope not really.

i do 1hr a day of cardio and a bit of free weights now and then. I am still big but not huge. i now look like i exercise as opposed to looking like i lift weights. at 30 thats better for me and my health.

at 21 i couldnt care less about my helath at 30 and would do/did anything if i thought it meant bigger guns!

the other thing that stopped me was family...when you have wife/kids its hard to do something as selfish (not in a bad way) as train that much. when my wife books a meal out she doesnt want to hear "ohh...i cant eat that!"

turbotroll

Interesting thread. For me personally, vegetarianism was a complete disaster. Are animal products bad for you? - according to a little known 1940's american dentist called Dr Weston A. Price, apparently not.
Although an old study, his work represents probably the only detailed study of the health and nutritional practices of non-industrialised people groups. His book, 'Nutrition and Physical Degeneration' is a bloody good read, and the photographs of the perfect teeth of the people he studied are unbelievable.
Start here - http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...nal_diets.html

Enjoy!!!!

Leslie

Since cholesterol is fairly important to me, I was wondering how the diets you were following Telboy and Milo affected your levels. i was wondering how much effect diet really has on cholesterol. I gather that levels depend on ones own personal genes as well.

Les

milo

cholesterol in food is *not* strongly linked to blood cholesterol levels. what does affect blood cholesterol levels is the mix of types of fats in your diet.

many types of fats raise hdl levels and lower ldl levels.. which is a good thing.

trans fats are the killer.. these raise ldl levels and dont touch hdl levels.. which is about the ****test u could hope for. sadly, most "ready meals" are extremely high in trans fats. people will die from this in years to come. there is absolutely no reason to have trans fats in your diet. they're bad for you and will block the absorbtion of good fats. i am shocked that these havent been banned by the govt yet.

saturated fats raise both hdl and ldl levels (slightly).. so arent as bad as trans fats, but arent great. i will happily argue that *some* are required in a diet (for sportsmen particularly), as animal fats are seen to raise test levels, so are worth the trade-off, particularly if u eliminate trans fats.

other forms of fats (polyunsaturated and monounsaturated) raise hdl levels and lower ldl levels.. this is a good thing.

as a rule, if the fat is solid at room temp, its bad (either trans or saturated). if its liquid at room temp, its good.

the reason why many "new age" bodybuilders will eat the whole egg is because research has shown that while yolks do have *some* impact on blood cholesterol levels, it is *very* minor (read as: not worth worrying about). and by taking in the yolk, you get benefits such as vitamins, extra protein and other nutrients.

lem0ncurd

Spot on Milo.

Yep, to explain things further, what many people don't realise, and often get confused about, is that there are two main types of cholesterol, dietary and blood cholosterol. Dietary cholesterol occurs in high amounts in foods such as liver, egg yolks and prawns, but it has been proven that dietary cholesterol doesn't necessarily affect blood cholesterol levels. In fact recent studies have shown that prawns contain subtsances which may even help lower blood cholesterol levels.

Blood cholesterol is produced by the liver and in low levels is very necessary to the body as it is involved in several functions such as making certain hormones, vitamin D and bile acids. It is only when cholesterol levels get high (over 7.8 mmol/l) that they start putting the health of the heart in danger!

LC

Leslie

Thank you Milo and lemOncurd. Its difficult to find that sort of information and is very useful.

Les

paulr

Some good,but contradictory,articles there.
..

Cider boy

Just to raise another point - there seems to be a general concencus among the scientific community that it was mans adoption of meat eating that accelerated our evolution to where we are today!

It stems from when started develpoing stone tools - this enabled us to butcher animals quickly and effeciently, and therefore not have to worry about other predators (lions etc) from attacking us for the carcass of a recently killed animal.

Therefore we were able to greatly increase the intake of meats in our diet, and the effect of these and the nutrients etc. they contain was to enhace the brain, particularly the frontal lobe area, and as brains became more advanced we were able to develop better tools, traps, homes etc. Each step forward led to easier access to more meat in the diet, and so the cycle continued.

So in answer to the points and questions raised earlier in this thread about the human body not being "designed" for eating meat - whilst it not may be able to cope as well as some animals with the breakdown / digestion it is the adoption of meat eating into our pre-historic diets that is allowing us to sit and debate the matter now

Matt

scooby_si

who cares i'm a happy bunny cause after years moaning about not being able to get it any more i did a quick search on yee olde internet (i'm new to this computer thing so hadn't thought of it b4 lol) for vegebanger mix he shoots he scores £30 of said delight now been ordered to keep my perfectly healthy beer & vege diet on track
Si (i lurve that stuff it rocks i so cant wait!!!)
PS (/sad git mode off lol)

turbotroll

The most interesting thing is the differences in diet between different people groups of the world - what is good for one may be disatrous for another. Ask an Innuit to survive on masses of dairy like the high alpine Swiss and it could prove disatrous.
To prescribe one type of diet for the whole world is a bad idea to say the least. For example, many people of coastal Scandanavian descent can't convert vegetable sources of omega 3 fatty acids to the useable forms - EPA and DHA, which are essential for human life. The only way thay can get them are through animal sources - in this case, fish. A vegan or vegetarian diet would be impossible for good health in these people
Nutrition is a minefield, why?, because the diet of (modern) man is so processed and nutritionally deficient it's hard to discern just what 'factors' are causing illness in the general populace. It's damned easy to pick out one particular factor as a cause for illness, especially if you have diet books to sell, or the backing and interests of a grain, meat, dairy etc. conglomerate at heart.
I guess the whole point of this post (yes there is one!), is a call to get back to nature - and I don't mean dancing naked around a tree indulging in primal scream therapy (although it depends who's there!). My advice for what it's worth is to:

- Eat lots of fresh veg (and always wash it, organic or not).
- Eat a portion of raw food each day.
- Eat some fruit.
- If you can afford it, eat grassfed/pastured organic meats and free-range organic eggs.
- Prepare grains and nuts/seeds properly (most traditional diets use soaking techniques).
- Avoid commercial vegetable oils.
- Don't eat margarine or any foods containing hydrogenated, or partially hydrogenated fats.
- Use real butter (anchor is particularly good), and traditional real cold-processed vegeatble oils (flax/linseed and olive oil).
- If you can handle it, try raw dairy - and not any old raw dairy either (animal husbandry is very important). In the UK try to obatin this from a 'green-top' herd (the Queen Mothers favourite - or was). Most people are scared of this, however, I switched to raw dairy for one month, switched back to pasteurised and got the sh*ts for two days - happens everytime.
- Take cod-liver oil (yummy!)
- if any foods disagree with you, don't eat them! (and that goes for any of the above)
- Experiment with your Protein, Carbohydrate and Fat intake to determine what works best for you.
- Drink a couple of pints of water per day.
- Sleep well

and finally.........................do some exercise!

Goodnight.