Jerome

From my experience with the Gurkhas, these terrorists had better hope that they aren't sent in.

steve<G>man

jerome i agree ive worked with the gurkhas and if they are sent in they dont have blunt fishin knifes for choping your head of they have very big sharp ones

Diesel

Wise but sad words AJM...

I heard a mosque got torched in Nepal - that is pretty lenient retribution so far in my book.

I would imagine a distraught father at that school in Russia going absolutely mental and massacring an equal number of equally inoccent Moslem kids should anything happen in the current siege; it is likely most fathers would do the same. Terrible, but the terrorists wont care...

It is time their own kind dealt with them as they cause only pain to everyone yet achieve nothing despite being lauded as heroes at the mosques.

It will just get worse and worse, and I know who my money's on; and it's not the guys without knife sharpners...

D

tiggers

What I think we need to remember here is that whilst these terrorists commit their acts in the name of Islam they are not representative the whole Muslim religion by any means. They are simply using their twisted views of the teachings of the Muslim religon to justify their actions.

Too many posts on here seem to tar all Muslims with the same brush and as someone who has several Muslim friends I can assure you that at least in my experience the average Muslim would no more support the terrorists' actions than you or I would.

Like so many factions across the world religion is used as a means to an end where in reality the core problem has little to do with religion. For instance look at the Northern Ireland situation and ask yourself if all protestants and/or catholics are represented by the para-military factions on both sides of that particular issue. If not then why tar all Muslims by the actions of a few terrorists?

Regards,

tiggers.

Diesel

Tiggers I do actually agree with that, but it is not the knee jerk reaction, and they do SO hide behind the cloak of Islam, chanting from the Qu'ran as they are murdering.

It was really good to see French Moslems getting stuck in and going to Iraq to see if they can save the two kidnapped journos. I suspect if these two professional journalists from a country that is very against the war have their heads hacked off then it will all go VERY sour in France.

D

Nimbus

It's interesting that the kidnappers are not demanding that all Jewish children be allowed to wear their religous symbols... since this is what the law also bans...

tiggers

Diesel,

I hear what you're saying and I agree that these terrorists are using Islam in this way and maybe they even believe this is what the Muslim relligion is about, BUT that doesn't mean that all Muslims think that way.

Reading some of the posts on SN I just worry the way people seem happy to tar them all with the same brush when in my experience this is not the case.

Not quite sure what you really expect the French Muslims to do about the above situation, but I agree that things could turn nasty in france if this all goes pear shaped. Again though it will be down to a small minority which is kind of my point really.

Regards,

tiggers.

unclebuck

In my view the problem here is that too few Muslims will come off the fence and condemn the terrorist atrocities. Have you ever seen Muslims protest publicly against the extremists? I haven’t. Until the moderate Muslim voice is heard loud and clear in condemnation of these acts of barbarism then it should come as no surprise to them that they are all ‘tarred with the same brush’.

UB

ajm

My stance against these types of religious terrorists is the same no matter what their adopted religion happens to be. It is my personal opinion that all religious people are weak minded and easily lead, however I have absolutely nothing against the majority who are not involved with terrorism of any kind following their religion so long as it is not at the detriment of others.

The unfortunate fact is that devoutly religious people are easily lead and tend to make very dangerous terrorists because they cannot be reached or swayed by any normal methods and their minds are completely closed to reason. Hence religious extremist terrorists must be killed in order to stop them.

tiggers

ub,

So because a group of people commit atrocities in the name of a religion you expect people of that religion to take to the streets to condemn them when most of them can't even begin to identify with what they are doing or who they are.

Do you also call for all Jews around the world to demonstrate when ever Israel goes on a Gaza killing spree or all catholics when the IRA detonate one of their bombs?

The problem here is not Islam or Muslims, the problem is a group of sick twisted terrorists and as ajm says who cares what their adopted religion is - their actions are what matters and any stance against them should be the same regardless of what religion is or isn't involved.

MJW

Unfortunately it is this mindset which perpetuates religious violence worldwide. The constant reprisal and tit-for-tat killings just add fuel to the fire. Example - Hamas - Israel assassinates two of its leaders, so they blow up a bus. Israel responds with bulldozers and helicopter gunships. People killed or made homeless by this reprisal want revenge and so on and so on. It's the same in Northern Ireland, the same in Chechnya, the same everywhere.
Every revenge attack creates an exponential amount of new enemies.

I agree with tiggers that the Muslim population of the world (several billion) cannot be judged by the actions of a relatively very small minority, and that this blinkered approach will only widen the divide between the west and the arab nations.

ajm

Where is your alternative suggestion?

Religious terrorists' demands are impossible to meet. The simple fact is that these people do not stop committing atrocities until they are dead because they don't expect any reward for their efforts until they are! Whether that happens by continual tit-for-tat killings on either side or one concentrated effort from those in the right against those in the wrong, there is no touchy-feely "everyone's happy" solution.

Your example of Israel vs Palestine illustrates the point that there is no place left for negotiation in wars where religion is involved. These people cannot live in harmony, and the terrible reality of that means constant fighting until one side is eradicated.

I am not a religious person and I am not a threat to religious nations, yet I am under threat every time I step aboard a plane. We are under threat and we should be prepared to defend ourselves by any means necessary and lefty liberals should prepare themselves for the reality that this will mean killing.

gsm1

How about trying to defeat terrorism rather than use it as a bogus excuse to make fat profits for a handful of greedy *******s in their corporations and their oil and arms friends? How about trying to understand why people join these groups?
You know why over 1 million people marched in Hyde Park and half the people in the UK were against this invasion in the first place? It wasn't cos they're all tree hugging liberal lefties, because people from all sides of the political spectrum were against it. It's because they had more than 2 brain cells - they knew the Iraq was not a threat. They knew it would destablise the Middle east and create more support for these extremist groups. Even the British intelligence report said terrorism would increase (which Blair edited out).

unclebuck

But is Islam is far from being an ‘adopted’ religion. These are not secular people for whom religion is an optional extra that can be exchanged or swapped as it suits them. It lies at the very core of their fundamentalist beliefs. It makes them what they are and you cannot ignore the connection.

As for demonstrations, you see plenty of anti-west demonstrations or demonstrations demanding various rights from Muslims communities, so why do you never see any condemning terrorist acts?

Easy to say, but all the Christians of the world (in fact all non believers) are regarded as legitimate targets by the extreme element of Islam. As the ‘Army of Ansar al-Sunna’ themselves claim -

That sounds pretty religious to me. I’ll say it again, as it is a criticism often used in relation to the Muslim communities’ apparent tolerance of the extremists in their midst. Until they themselves rise up, come off the fence, or whatever, and condemn those carrying out these appalling acts in their name they can expect nothing but suspicion from the rest of the non-muslim world. IMO it is within their powers to solve this problem, and it’s their responsibility to do something about it.

UB

ajm

That is exactly what I am advocating, by use of lethal force!

MJW

Erm ... *not* conducting revenge attacks ? *not* invading Muslim countries ? Maybe that would help ...

And the reason they can't live in harmony ? Because Israel has invaded the West Bank and Gaza Strip, violating numerous international laws, and has been allowed to get away with it scot free. Unlike Iraq. Now can you see why this might just make some Muslims a teeny bit peeved ?

And where does this solution end ? With the extermination of every Muslim ? Maybe bringing back the good old British invention of the concentration camp ? How many more terrorists do you think that would create ? The reason you are under threat every time you board a plane is the result of decades of western meddling with middle east affairs for the sole purpose of greed. Recent sabre-rattling foreign policy decisions by the US and UK have only exacerbated the situation.

Yes, the extreme element of Islam - the minority, as I originally stated.

ajm

What is every religious extremist's overall objective? To take over the world and replace all faiths with their own. That is what they want, their non negotiable "higher purpose", backed by an omnipotent being, is to rid themselves of godless heathens such as myself. Are you willing to give them them what they want?

Perhaps you still believe that all religions and races can coexist in perfect harmony and the extremist minority will get bored and just melt away?

Perhaps you are religious yourself and you are hedging your bets that your faith "wins"?

Brendan Hughes

*cough* Neocons *cough*

ajm

If you're not part of the solution, Brendan, you must be part of the problem!

tiggers

Yes I see what you're saying in relation to these terrorist groups, but do you accept that they are twisting their religion's (adopted or otherwise) teachings to suit their own ends (either because it suits their cause or because they really believe it) or do you believe their way of thinking is actually what the Muslim religion is really about?

tiggers.

OllyK

Twisting or interpreting differently, or putting more emphasis on a given part??

Read the bible, there are so many contradictions in it, which one is correct? Much the same is true of the koran and other religious texts and indeed many of them have a lot of common history.

tiggers

Agreed, so maybe twisting was a bad way to put it. Put another way what I'm interested in is whether the Muslim religion as a whole is seen as being aligned to the terroists way of thinking or whether the terrorists are considered extremists.

The Muslims I know will openly condemn these terrorist factions and claim they have little to do with the teachings of the Muslim faith as far they understand it.

I therefore find it difficult when I read posts that make sweeping generalisations about a whole religion and hence group of people, but maybe I'm wrong and I'm lucky enough to know the only Muslims in the world who don't desire to take over the planet

paulr

Its an unwillingness to compromise.
If you were a schoolkid and the girl next to you wore a muslim headscarf would you find it objectionable to the point where you would want her to remove it?

unclebuck

Well, this argument is easy to turn on its head. Are you suggesting that because you know a Muslim who is moderate that they all are except for the few who commit atrocities? The fact is we don’t know what proportion of Muslims sympathise with the extremists and I find that worrying. What we do know is that fundamentalism is on the rise and has been for a number of years. It is spreading through the Muslim community worldwide like a horrible cancer.

Given that the adherents to any given doctrine are susceptible to influence from those they regard as their superiors (in this case the Clerics) who’s to say what can happen if they are subjected to new and more radical interpretations. I’m sure all Muslims start out as moderates. It’s not until they come under the influence of these radical cleric types, whose mission it is to reprogramme the faithful, that they become ‘radicalised’.

The nine people recently charged in the UK on terrorist offences illustrate that there are indeed extremists at large in this country. How long till some similar atrocity to what we are seeing today in Russia takes place here?

UB

tiggers

Even if I know only a handful of moderate Muslims that means they are not all extremists which is precisely why I feel uneasy when sweeping generalisations are made about them on here or anywhere else.

Sure we don't know exactly what proportion are sympathisers the same way we don't know what proportion of Catholics sympathise with the IRA, but then again Muslims are easier to pick out of the crowd aren't they?

Anyway I can see that yet again we're not going to find any common ground - at least our discussion didn't descend into a petty slanging match this time so that's at least something I suppose

All the best,

tiggers.

mart360

There are times when ultimate force is the only answer..

ww2 in japan came to a very swift and decisive end following hiroshima &

nagasaki..

The people of the free world need to say enough,s enough

24 hrs notice and then nuke them!!!!

and if anyone starts any pc crap then F88K off

for too long we have been butt F88ked by politicians & terrorists.

its got to the stage now where the veklvet glove must be removed..

anyone here feel so strongly that they are misrepresented or its unfair

there are flights from heathrow daily go and play with the big boys, and see how long you last...

they dont give a flying f**k about us its only about there own means

so its about time we got in there first


there rant over...

happy head on

mart

ps i hate anyone who takes kids hostage....

moses

i saw that in the papers, very very sickening, i felt so sorry for their families, what the hell did the nepalese do to them , made me really sick, them and what they dont to the other innocent civilians and now the french guys, its sad really
and also andrew delvard go evil on who the innocent iraqi civilians who suffered alot already or these evil terrorists who kidnapp, pls explain, i wish to go all evil on the israeli goverment and evil soldiers, i think that will be good they should be cleansed on the face of the earth

makes me more bitter since i read israeli scum even spy on their number one ally they milk day and night the USA, hmm not a good thing to spy on the people they milk of their blood and lifeforce for billions of dollars of aids


edited to add uncle buck we can have the same arguements all the time same reply, so i wont even bother dude.

what those evil guys done in russia the planes and school is an evil, u have to ask why they doing it, i dont know if u know the bodycount of chechyna over the yrs , what the russians done to them and raped their woman day and night and killed their male , boys and older men

gsm1

Who is this fruit cake?? You make Sun readers look intelligent.

moses

just read all these posts uncle buck your brain is warped mate u need your head checked

unclebuck

You wish. Is it warped that I would like see all moderate muslims stop sitting on their hands and put a stop to fundimentalism?