Little Miss WRX

Everyone calm down and stop throwing wild accusations around else this thread will get closed and it will be a deep shame as this has potential to have some awesome debate.

The last few posts have turned sour and unless they stop, they will be removed.

Let us move forward in a reasonable manner please.

Regards,

Little Miss WRX.

Little Miss WRX

Indeed, they have been, understand that my post is geared more to calm the overall tone that this thread is headed in.
Aaquil's responses have been well balanced, informative and he has not risen to any bait that has been offered.

I will no longer participate within this thread unless such a circumstance arises that I need to.

May I also express appreciation to those who have contributed to this discussion with well balanced and positive posts.

martyrobertsdj

iTrader: (1)

Now.....................

I'm a resonably intelligent person.
Not particularly well read, or eloquent in my ability to put into words what is in my thoughts.

BUT I'll have a go..................educate me as required!!

I do not KNOW anything about the teachings of Islam, but I am led to believe that it is a peaceful religion?
If it is a peaceful religion, how come there will NEVER be peace in The Middle East??
Is it just the extremists that twist the teachings to create a different set of rules and codes by which to live ones life?
Television pictures often show mass celebrations when abhorrent acts have been carried out against others. This seems to be more prevalent in The Middle East.
Sure....I am as guilty as the next man of muttering words of revenge upon persons who have carried out such atrocities, but it stops there. I wouldn't go out in the street, waving, celebrating and firing my air rifle (!!) I do not wish revenge upon all Muslims because of 9/11 or what has happened in Beslan.
I have friends who are Muslims and they have been just as appalled as anyone about these events.

The one thing that really gets me is this..........how the f**k can a suicide bomber REALLY believe that they will go "to the other side" or wherever it is? Paradise???
BLOWN UP MATE!!!! END OF STORY!!!!
There's only one place a suicide bomber goes......all over the f**king place!!!

It's just a shame that they have to take so many innocent lives with them. Indescriminate murderous scum!!! If you want to make yourself a martyr, go and jump off a bridge shouting about your beliefs on the way down, go and shoot yourself, go and drown yourself, go and jump under a train....just don't take children with you eh!!!???

Maybe I'm just a non-believer. Maybe there is something waiting for us all after death................Yeah there is................ Worms !!

We all need something to believe in, some more than others. I believe in living my life in a reasonably decent manner, working for a living, looking after my little lad, having dogs and cats, having friends, riding my motorbike. All "normal" things I think.
I'll not try and impose my will upon you if you believe differently and I'll not punish you for those beliefs.

I'm not a protester, or a member of any peace movement, not a hippy, or a tree hugger. I'm just sick of seeing the same terrible things on the television and reading the same terrible things in the papers.

Anyway....they are just my laymans thoughts ......for what they are worth!!!
Stick that in your pipe bomb and smoke it!!!

Marty

MooseRacer

Ah, now that's easy - even I can answer that one for you

Soulgirl

It would appear that this thread has been chosen for the axe, albeit that there has been genuine passion displayed.

As I am not one to mind my p's and q's I had best bow out of this thread too. But I still maintain that religion, any religion, is a means to control the massess, holds no significant wellbeing to mankind and is, in effect, bad!

Brit_in_Japan

Full marks to you Aaquil for trying to educate muslims and non-muslims alike about Islam. If there were more moderate and educated people such as yourself in all religions then the world would be a better place. I wonder how many muslims, christians and jews are aware that the god they prey to is one and the same?

The murder of all those in Beslan is truly shocking, a new low point in what individuals or groups are prepared to do for their cause. I hope those in power will recognise that violence is not a viable long term solution to the problems in that part of the world and they have the courage to try and resolve the conflicts through political means.

Leslie

Soulgirl

Despite the fact that you are "fundamentalist" in your hatred of anything religious and will search for anything to decry it, many people do follow religions in the basic spirit of their teachings and live good and unselfish lives for that very reason.

Its just a matter of tolerance and understanding about what the real cause is of the troubles that we see really.

Wars and genocide are always down to the selfish ambitions of evil minded leaders who will manipulate their followers in any way possible to further their wishes, regardless of the misery that it causes. These are the people to blame, not the religions that they use for their own purposes.

It is wrong and unfair to slam religions in such a generalised manner.

Les

Leslie

I agree with what you say B2Z, I just think it is unfair to blame the troubles of the world on religion.

Its not the religion which starts the problem, but the unprincipled actions of those who use it to their own ends.

War and genocide have always been the fault of man, evil leaders who are trying to increase their own power at all costs. This goes all the way back in history, it is easy as in these cases, to influence people to carry out such shameful acts. Some will do it out of fear, and others for personal gain. It is not the normal way of life advocated by the religions. As you say, they all have similar teachings for people's way of life, probably largely based on natural law.

Like you, I was able to make up my own mind and have gone through life in a way based on natural law. Those people I know who have followed a religion have lived a good life with full regard for their fellow human beings. Before this country became relatively Godless, there was far far less of the unpleasant attitude we see towards others and comparatively little violent crime which so often leads to murder these days. People used to think of others far more and it was a considerably less miserable way of going through life. No one should be forced to follow any particular religion however. Its your own conscience that matters.

I believe we have to concentrate our anger towards those who with their vicious ambitions are manipulating others to do their dirty work in any way they can regardless of the consequences. There is an enormous battle going on and it is not for the good of the "man in the street"!

I think that Aaquil's posts are an illustration of how his religion has influenced a moderate and fair man.

Les

Leslie

Yes I understand what you are saying and it is strange that that is possible. These people are very clever of course and could probably twist anything to their own advantage. It happens all the time, in politics of all kinds of course, its a matter of degree I suppose. These people know what they are doing alright.

Les

unclebuck

Clever? How strange to dignify these people with such a description. They are only ‘clever’ by comparison to the gullible fools that listen to them and believe them. (The image of that stupid retard Richard Reid springs to mind.) Evil would be a more appropriate word IMO.

moses

soulgirl whoever u are or a man , u seem a learned woman or man and cant believe u are distorting the truth and bullsh1t u have created by quoting something out of context.


those verses were about the war with the quraysh the meccans , majority of the arabs vs handful of muslims, who got killed, butchered, persecuted in the times of ignorance and idolatary, that God says during the times when theirs the time of hajj that u wont fight and then fight them enemies who fight against u and slaughter them those who fight and want to destroy the muslims in the war against the quraysh and their allies against muslims, u sick man or woman, whoever u are.

why do u quote something out of context, pls why dont u cut and paste the whole verse, which is awesome and truthful .

2% of muslims vs 98% arabs all idolworshippers and killers of muslims, slaughtering the early muslims and persecuting them out of their homes and cities and muslims did defend themselves and 2% become 100% in the arab lands amongst their enemies the persians, fellow arabs, yemens, egyptians and byzantiums.

and also bravo

religiously we have the same God , God of abraham
judaism was the original islam
but judaism itself is a man made religion, their was no such thing as jews in the torah, have a look just hebrew people like their cousins the ishmaeliters who were called arabs, semites basically.

the name judaism came from the tribe of judah the step brother of the holy prophet joseph, these brothers tried to kill joseph as u may know they were jealous of him, jews come from the stepbrothers aka judaism.

joseph himself was married to an arab woman aka egyptian same as moses was married to an ishmaelli arab zephorah.

hebrews religion was submittion and worship of the God of abraham for short meaning islam or muslim. they got their name judaism coz of the place they lived and coz they were the tribe of judah.

and through wars and wars with the enemies they lost alot and they merged with the ruling tribe the tribe of judah, and the people surrounding them used to call them jews or judaism people

like we are called glaswegians, scousers, mancs etc etc and it wasnt a religion.

and their teachings had been lost , u can check with their rabbis, they have oral traditions etc and also historians and torah and old testament itself is full of Gods word, prophets word, historians, rabbis, kings stories all mixed up and distorted to suit one another.

then comes christianity, jesus wont even recognise this religion

his name was esau and classical yeshua , not the christ, christ means short for christos the anointed one and thats in greek, jesus aint greek he never spoke it.

he spoke aramiac , sister language of arabic and hebrew mix.

romans and their st paul traitor to the jesus real faith changed the religion to suit the romans and brought in pagan teachings, mainly mithra or mithraic teachings.

and turned jesus into God and he jesus himself never praised himself and was always praying to our father in heaven, , if u look at the new testament, all 90% of words in the 5 gospels or even 95% arent his its passed on and written like a story book.

jesus went to such and such place etc and this happened and that

not i jesus went their and i told him to do this, it aint even the word of God and jesus only a bit of it is.


and basically christians had the same God but they turned him into a human, who eats and ***** and sleeps and cries and doesnt want to be crucified, we believe in jesus the messiah and he aint God but a messenger of God like the rest of the prophets and all power is Gods and jesus said himself

i myself can do nothing, with the power of God i cast out demons and heal the lepers and sick

he was awesome

and also soulgirl mind telling everyone about the rapes and incest in the bible and how it is condoned

and how God sents the jews to go and slaughter the arabs and rape their woman and kill their children and even the ox and the donkey, pls quote the verse would u and how God said keep the virgins( only way to know who the virgin is , is to rape them) and kill all woman who have known man and guess what , God says in the bible, bring back 29 viirgins for me, well whats God gonna do with 29 virgins

Chris L

Casting relgion aside for one moment. The thing that has always struck me about the Chechan situation is what the bloody hell did Russia do in Chechnya to make them resort to such depths? Granted their situation may have been inflamed in recent times by outside sources such as Al-Quieda, but it really does make you wonder....

moses

soulgirls, she misses out the main parts and theirs more, i only showed u the bit before the verse and afterwards

christians used to run to muslim lands coz they knew the muslims will look after them from their christian evil leaders who used to persecute them, read the books of jews themselves under saladdin, they didnt like to live in the jewish quarters coz their rabbis were horrid and zealots and they wanted saladdin to judge them and protect them but saladdin had made a pact with the rabbis he wouldnt interfere with the jewish law and the torah and talmudic law to keep the peace and jews used to critisize saladdin coz why saladdin do u leave us in the mercy of our rabbi's who dont judge in the rightful manner, but what could have saladdin done if he had made a pact with the jewish religious scholars , some didnt want to stay in the jewish quarters so they used to live along with the arabs and travel to turkey instead and syria etc


----------------------------------------
the verse she put out of context



(declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

2. Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

3. And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

8. How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.

9. The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.

10. In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.

11. But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.

12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.

13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

14. Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

15. And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise

Brendan Hughes

Chris, I'm trying to find out. Best I can manage so far is this Amnesty report, Chapter 3. It's bad, but it's nothing like the figure of 40 000 children killed since the beginning of the conflict - I want to know where that figure came from and if it's reliable.

Diesel

Chris - several of the terrorists were not even from Chechnya; they were bonded by religion rather than geography it seems...

Like Leslie I too always find the religious label thing often inaccurate - Palestinians v Israelis has zero to do with religion; it is not about Muslims v Jews. It's about systematic humiliation and lost territory; being forced to live in refugee camps etc etc

However the Western perception of the whole Islamic 'tribe' and their 'united under religious bonds in hatred against all other non muslims/infidels' thing is a much greater valid reality than any comparison of Christians as one big world dominating capitalistic 'bullying gang' by Easterners. Why? Well simply because most people I know aren't religious or Christians (and it is getting more so) so 'fear' of 'them' based on religious labeling cant be valid. I would hope it is also beyond anyone's credulity that 'Christians' would shoot kids down like rats. After 9/11 we knew islamic fundamentalists had a very dark heart after all.

I rejected religion as a bit 'far fetched' & refused to go to chapel at age 14 which my parents respected. Personal morals and values are the key to a good life and I seem to have similar values to Aaquil.

I think it's all about gangs, wealth, territory & power at the end of the day- not God(s) although he is a handy excuse/shield. Do you agree?

D

Aaquil

Well...I didn't realise that I would get such genuinely nice responses to my threads I thought I was going to get gunned down...not that I was looking for it of course. The issue of the same Creator, Sustainer and Provider that the Jews, Christians and Muslims worship is not as simple as that. As Muslims we believe that we should respect all life and honour it as that life is sacred and given by Allaah (The Sole Perfect Creator, King, Provider and Sustainer of the Heavens, Earth and everything within them who truly deserves to be worshipped alone without any partners or associates in that worship, who was not born nor does he give birth and there is nothing that He has Created that is anything like Him).

We believe that amongst mankind the Jews and Christians have a special relationship as they received Revelation from Allaah and we honour and hold in very high esteem all the Prophets and Messengers. The best of which we believe are: Muhammad, Ibraheem (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Nuh (Noah) and Eesa (Jesus the son of Mary).

However, we do not believe that Jesus (in specific relation to the Christians) nor Uzair (in specific relation to the Jews) were anything more than specially chosen from amongst mankind to be Prophets calling the people to Worship Allaah (As defined before) Alone. We do not give these noble and honoured Prophets any part of Divinity that only Allaah deserves even though we do not fall short in our love and honour of these and all other Prophets. This applies to Muhammad as well. With regards to Eesa (Jesus) we believe he was a Miracle from Allaah that he was conceived in Maryam (Mary of which there is a whole Chapter devoted to her being one of the best of ALL women) and Jesus was given signs of Prophethood such as raising the dead, healing the leper and the blind. We do not believe that Eesa (Jesus) was the son of Allaah nor one part of three (Trinity) we do not raise him above his honourable station. Likewise we do not go to the other extreme and say that he was a man born through fornication which insult him and his noble mother.

The Greatest thing to establish in Islaam is to have the correct belief in Allaah and to worship Him Alone without any partners in that worship and the Worst thing in Islaam is to worship anything besides Allaah or share the worship of Allaah with anything else.

Once the Muslim has grasped these principles then he/she will be well aware of the way to treat people because he / she is well aware of Allaah's Attributes such as the ability to See and Hear all things and to Reward and Punish then that person will Fear his Lord in balance and Hope in the Reward in balance any would therefore would fear doing the kind of sick, evil, devilish deeds that have recently been done and continue to be done by evil and ignorant Muslims. If you are aware and have some belief and love your Lord...you want the reward and success in this life and the hereafter you will follow and honour His Messenger Muhammad and follow his way or Sunnah which gives plenty advice and guidance on things like the way we interact with people Muslim and Non Muslim.

For example "The one who kills a Non-Muslim will not smell the fragrance of Paradise."
"The one who kills himself will continue to do that forever in Hell" Puts a new perspective on so called "Murdering Suicide Bombers" what happened to all those virgins in Paradise eh? Read it and weep extremist Bin Laaden scumbags.

Okay rant over...was that too deep and complicated? If it was then sorry.

Aaquil

Little Miss WRX I got your PM thank you that made me feel very happy. Did you get mine?

Little Miss WRX

My apologies for not responding earlier Aaquil, I did indeed, thank you.

Many thanks also to everyone who have responded since my post and have kept their posts as I requested them to be. This is an excellent thread, keep it going.

Leslie

Anyone who thinks that those who are leading the terrorists are not intelligent is being very naive indeed. Extremely dangerous attitude to take.

Les

unclebuck

I see the intellectuals have been busy at work again today in Jakarta. You have to admire their sheer cleverness in killing and maiming the innocent.

Leslie

UB

If you had read the post again before you wrote, it might have saved you a bit of "mouth frothing!"

Les

Aaquil

Of course these people who are the evil leaders...most of the burden of blame is on these people they speak without ignorance or lack of intelligence. In fact what Leslie has written about them is true. They are intelligent they are not IGNORANT or what they do. Unfortunately, they are highly intelligent in two ways:

1. They plot and plan in increasingly clever ways causing death, murder and mayhem. They way in which they do it and they type of places and people they attack e.g US Cole Warship, Twin Tower, Russian Theatre and school etc.

2. By far the more dangerous way in which they are intelligent is by their so called 'beautiful' and 'eloquent' speech, twisting of the Islaamic texts and stirring up of emotions of the ignorant generally non practising Muslim youth calling for a so called honourable Jihad. This is the truth evil because it breeds more and more of them. Get rid of one Bin Laadin or Abu Hamzah and there are another load ready to take their evil places.

Anyway for all those Muslims contemplating being foolish, evil and devils let me tell you about Jihaad...all the people of knowledge in Islaam state that the first and most important Jihaad is of the heart. To fight against what you desire because it is the natural instinct for example of a man to go after a nice looking woman that he is attracted to and desires. The Muslim controls these desires because in Islaam intimate and sexual relationships are through marriage. So part of the fight or Jihaad of a man or woman is to control his/her desires if he/she is not married. from another angle when we pray our prayer 5 daily prayers that is then one is in the morning at 5.20am in the morning at the moment to be exact. Then, your Jihad is to get up out of your warm bed and away from your warm wife and go to the local Mosque and pray your morning prayer and all the other ones in the mosque if you can. If you are not then you are failing in the most important Jihad that Allaah has ordered the Muslim with the Jihaad of what you desire and what you know you must do and not to do what you know you must not.

Again as I wrote before the first and main purpose of every Muslim man and woman is to have the correct belief and knowledge in their Lord then to worship Him alone without peer or partner. The main purpose of the Muslim is not to dominate the World, kill all the non-Muslim/Infidels or establish the Islaamic state. What kind of Islaamic state will there be if it is established by people who cannot even be bothered to worship their Lord properly. It will not happen anyway because Allaah only will give success to Muslims in this life if they do good any righteous deeds.

What kind of righteous deed is killing yourself and others with injustice, or having a corrupted belief in your Lord or not even worshipping him with the most important action for the Muslim...the prayer. Wake up everyone it doesn't make any sense does it all this killing...all this injustice.

Aaquil

I forgot to write before that the intelligence of these leaders is NOT the praiseworthy type of intelligence but the blameworthy and condemned type.

r32

What an amazing thread, keep it up, you can learn so much ..........

andrewdelvard

Aaquil.
Great, great posts. Very well written. Keep it up.

Brit_in_Japan

Aaquil, I am interested to know what steps you think Western countries like the UK, US etc can take to reduce the incidents of terrorism by these fanatics.

I'm sure that a different policy to Israel/Palistine would be a good starting point. But what would it take to fundamentally change the views of those people who fall under the spell of the radicals? Can the west do anything or would it be dismissed as insincere or false?

Is it an issue that can only be tackled from within Islamic nations?

Heavy handed military action will not bring long term peace to the middle east. It creates an enviroment of discontent and resentment against the west which in turn makes it far easier for the extremists to recruit new cannon fodder. Trying to impose some western (US) ideal of freedom and democracy on a middle east state is doomed to failure unless there is an overwhelming percentage of the population who want that. A more pragmatic approach is called for I think.

Leslie

Thank you for your posts Aaquil, and for indicating that what I was saying is somewhere near what is actually happening. This is what I felt was the truth and you have helped a great deal by giving us the view from the Muslim side. I hope that your posts will generate a more tolerant attitude towards those of your faith who do not advocate terrorism.

I think Brit in Japan has made some good points too. As I have said often enough, the attack on Iraq was illegal and the wrong thing to do. We are all, Iraq more than anyone, suffering the consequences of that now of course.

It is a gross presumption that Iraq or any other Arab nation would want to be ruled in a western style democracy. To try to force that upon them is the same as if we were occupied by a foreign force and made to accept a dictatorship. Having known some Iraqis in the past, I bet they would be happier with a strong leader but with a benign attitude towards his people, unlike the previous man who was in the same class as Hitler, Stalin, or even Vlad the Impaler.

As B in J indicated, we are now in a parlous situation where we can't leave Iraq and the various terrorist factions have leapt on the bandwagon. Whatever we do will be unpopular and we are risking our servicemen's lives every day. By associating our country with the allied attack we have now become an important terrorist target.

Wonder what they will say to wriggle out of the situation when the report arrives in a couple of weeks to say that there never were WOMD's in Iraq anyway.

Gives the lie to the whole situation as far as I can see!

Les