gsm1

First of all what is it any of your business what neighbouring countries were being endangered by Iraq, apart from oil, oil, oil and oil? If neighbouring countries were ever endangered then that is something for those countries and their people to decide, NOT YOU. It was the West that supported Iraq against Iran, so don't come telling us how Iraq was a danger to the rest of the region. Iraq invaded Kuwait fourteen years ago and paid a heavy price. Since Iraq has been no threat to its neighbours or anyone else. Iraq was invaded because it was weak and the second largest oil supplies were there for the taking. Invade, stick in your own puppets, make a few billion in oil, reconstruction contracts and arms sales and make a military base for the US in the ME. That's what this invasion was about - Greed, not about justice or freedom or the rest of the spiel.

Aaquil

MICHELLE,

YOU WROTE:
"Seeing as the minor dispute ended in a friendly manner (thanks Aaquil ) I will give the benefit of the doubt." AND "and Aaquil, I hope your wife and son weren't too bothered by the delay to ASDA that Scoobynet caused."

You are welcome and you didn't delay me at all...I delayed myself.

DIESEL,

I'm getting ready to open those cans of worms...right about now.

YOU WROTE:
"It has been good to hear one lone voice of Islamic reasonableness and moderation..."

If you meant that statement directed at me then thank you, you are most kind.

AND:
"Unfortunately however the bombs are still going off in the name of Islam – I wonder where today’s will be?"

Diesel I think that everyday especially when will it happen here. I swear by my Lord everyday I pray that this nightmare will end and that it will not happen here because only then will you know the true horror of what this evil brings. I now seem to live in a situation of that kind of sick feeling in the pit of my stomach whenever I hear something else has happened, when someone is kidnapped...please let them be released unharmed and with the School tradegy in Russia I prayed that some good result or solution would be reached without any bloodshed but your prayers are not always answered.

AND YOU WROTE:
"The irony (sorry cant think of a better word) is that it is mostly fellow Muslims who suffer most in these terrorist acts – they didn’t kill a single Australian in Jakarta after all, only innocent local Muslim civilians."

Do you know that the primary target of these Terrorists is to kill Muslims who are not upon the same way as them and to cause overthrowing of the Muslim Rulers because they are deemed to them to be legitimate targets due to the fact that they do not establish (their twisted version) of Islamic Law by the letter. So they kill and spill the blood of anyone who works for or supports these so called 'Legitimate targets'.

Unfortunately, Islamic Law cannot be established in a land except that the people are ready for it and THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN ISLAAM. If the correct Islaamic Law was established as these extremist claimed they want it to be (so they must bring about rebellion etc.) they would be the first to be executed!

The Muslim Scholars refer to the likes of Bin Laadin and the group that affiliate themselves to him as 'Jama'at tul Fa'saad' which means:

"The community who bring about great trial, tribulation and harm."

These extremists bark on about the fact that Muslims are suffering but what has their action lead to...not just Non-Muslims were killed in the Twin Towers you know. What has it lead to... civil war in Algeria. My friend who is Algerian (who speaks more harshly about these people than I do...he has seen the harm of these people himself) said babies, women, men MUSLIMS were slaughtered by MUSLIMS (Government troops fighting these evil, rebellious extremists) he said once. "The people (innocents) were slaughtered as if they were chickens being slaughered for the butchers" thousands upon thousands. Then you have the Taliban with the help of the devil himself (Bin Laadin) they slaughtered MUSLIMS then the Northern Alliance slaughtered the Taliban (What goes around comes around). So yes killing Muslims may seem strange to you but it is not strange or a problem to them.

YOU WROTE:
"Clearly US/UK have to depart Iraq [and leave it in chaos]..."
If they leave Iraq then these devils will take over and it will be more of a threat. By the way the Shia Cleric they were all fighting recently are extreme evil people who curse and insult many of the MAJOR COMPANIONS of our Prophet their corrupted belief takes them out of the fold of Islaam this is in agreement with by far the Majority of the Scholars of Islaam...the support of the Muslims shoul be 150% behind our allies amongst the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) the Coalition of the UK and USA fighting them.

I feel that the US opened a real can of worms (there I go again) invading Iraq. You cannot expect to just take over a country then everything will be cool you can take full control then send you troops home without a scratch on them. In the past the kings and their advisors used to go into battle with their troop...go on Bush, Blair, Powel go get em!!! I think not...unfortunately this may be the second Vietnam for the US. You reap what you sow. Go to Sudan and Zimbabwe and stop the genocide...send in troops kill the baddies, kill the terrorists...go on...Oh but of course nothing to gain. No oil and certainly no strategic base.

YOU WROTE!!!:
"Can anything similar be done (other than cloning and dispatching thousands of Aaquil’s)"
As quoted from 'THE FLY' "Be afraid be very afraid."

YOU WROTE:
"Many of us have learnt a lot and, I’ll be honest, it has killed some hate I had and calmed some of my horror driven and reactionary anti-Islamic feelings."
You cannot appreciate how great and happy that has made me feel. I truly feel honoured that so many kind people have taken the time to read my sometimes very lenghthy replies.

YOU WROTE:
"You know the feeling when you see someone walking down the street in Islamic dress or wearing a veil/burkha, and you sometimes wonder ‘do they hate me and wish me and my family harm’?"

You know I get the exact same feeling when I walk past a Non Muslim. My daily experience is to get stared at and mocked especially when I am with my wife. I feel it is getting worse now and I honestly feel that some day I will have to leave the UK for good as it will get too bad. Most places I go to with my wife I always feel tense she can't stand it but she doesn't notice it like I do. That is what I mean be 'Jama'at tul Fa'saad' they cause trial and tribulation wherever they go.

Diesel I can guarantee they do not feel that but she certainly will be feeling a sense of fear of what you might do to her but that is not your fault you know who's fault I think it is. I always let my wife go anywhere and everywhere she wants but I'd much rather go with her mainly because we are best of mates and like each others company and also that I want to make sure she is going to be safe - Sad state of affairs eh? I think I just worry too much.

Diesel even if they hate you that is their problem and sickness. How can they hate you they don't even know you from Adam! As for harm your family, no way the majority of Muslims would fight these so called Muslims that want to kill indiscriminately. I feel very strongly about this and if I was in the kind of situation where innocent people were going to be killed I would (and hope I have the courage) to use all my might to protect those people MUSLIM OR NON MUSLIM.

I have female colleagues at work NON MUSLIM and in Rochdale where I work there is a scumbag sex attacker on the loose. I teach them self defence techniques, escort them everywhere I can (outside) usually with my friend Nichola (Yes, that is the way she spells her name) when we go across the road to the Hospital canteen for breakfast and after I do the Emergency Dental Service in the evening I always accompany my nurse colleagues to their car. I gave one of my Nurse friends my wifes spare 'Rape Alarm' beacuse she goes walking the dog and I am gonna get them all one. This is how a Muslim should try to conduct themselves with Non Muslims not the other way. I am not trying to get browny points or praise I just want you all to see where I am many of my friends are coming from. I'm not the only one you know.

I bet you guys are thinking not another one of he's bloody long replies.

Aaquil...I did warn you before.

Diesel

Aaquil - take your time as I am off to break into my car that has locked both keys in it EDIT AS POSTS CROSSED : I'm just going to read your post again Aquil, but am fixing this crossed post first

Gsm - I'm not implying that the oil factor is irrelevant, but I do think this is always over emphasised. If this was truly the case Saudi should have been first and the US would never have left Kuwait. The situation is FAR far more complex than oil; power dominance, 'saving face', posturing and a stab at morality in making things >cough< 'better' for the citizens are far greater considerations in my view (I know many wont agree )

Aaquil

gsm1 your statements make a lot of sense to me. Taking my previous replies into account of course.

Aaquil

If the US and UK who whoever invaded Saudi they would open a real, massive can of worms (sorry, that can of worms stuff again).

Aaquil

Diesel are you a member of the AA they can do it for you and it won't involve much hassle. Been there done that...on two separate occassions and AA did a top job.

Aaquil.

bigJoe

Leslie, Diesel,

Tolerance is what someone does when they disapprove of something, yet feel they have to put up with it and hence end up having to be tolerant.

As a society we don’t tolerate criminals, we deal with them otherwise they’d eventually ruin society for everyone– so what’s wrong with having a global policeman?
Someone’s got to do it and if the UN won’t then why not the USA?

I think a lot of people in the west need to wake up, this situation won’t go away by giving land away, tying to be nice or fair etc – you just can’t pacify these people. Just weed out the bad ones, it’s not about religion, land or oil – it’s just bad people doing bad things because they can get away with it. Things will only improve when they can’t get away with this behaviour any more.

It may sound patronising but the middle east and Africa need to mature (as societies) a lot as a whole before they can integrate into the world properly, that’s not to say the west is perfect, but it is a whole lot better place to live – as regular working guy or gal.


Gsm1

The situation in Iraq is the business of the whole world, the stability of the whole of middle east depended (to a large extent) on the actions of Iraq, don’t try and pretend otherwise.

As for oil, the whole of the world economy is built upon oil, Russia, China, USA, Brazil the list is as big as the world – so a safe and steady supply is in everyone’s interest.

Aaquil

Where has Diesel, Leslie and Little Miss WRX gone?

Suresh

Excellent thread - especially the insight Aaquil has been so kind to take considerable time to provide. There has actually been a little too much back-slapping going on for my tastes :P Including mine of course Hopefully I can help to balance the discussions a little.

I appreciate and accept the points made about cause and effect; how unreasonable Israeli behaviour and percieved US oil grabs have contributed to make the world a less safe place. The US most certainly has let itself down and obviously no longer plays the traditional role of global policeman with impartially, honour and reasonableness. One hopes that serious US foreign policy short-comings and indeed, short-sightedness will start to be addressed when GWB gets retired later this year...

I have a question for Aaquil : going back to one of the points a few pages back, you stated something along the lines of that the Koran allows lives to be taken when the cause is just. My concern is that this a very subjective 'law' and therefore it allows extremist [non representitive] leadership to stipulate what is and isn't just. Would appreciate your opinion. For me the risk and reality is that a doctrine of hate and murder can be justified in the minds of a minority fraternity as that particular religion would seem to allow it. For example was the fatwa against Salman Rushdie issued because of a just cause? Agree that Rushdie is a pillock and to be quite honest a rather boring writer too, but surely does not deserve the death penalty for some writings which the majority of those offended haven't even read?


I tend to subscribe to the school of thought that organised religion is usually the refuge of the weak-minded, as it requires that people blindly obey old books that supposedly fell out of the sky and must not develop and use their own reasoning. This description excludes the religious leadership, who are unusually intelligent, shrewd and powerful individuals of course. Ayatollah Khomeini and his little green book of sayings illustrates this quite well I think. The ignorant and immovable standpoint of the Catholic church to contraception would be an example of ridiculous and outdated religious doctrine remaining unchallenged by the faithful.

I appreciate that having this particular viewpoint potentially risks upsetting the few billion people who have abandoned their own reasoning and blindly follow a particular faith (usually one of their parents choosing). Happily I live in a society where I have the freedom to have an alternative viewpoint.


Suresh

unclebuck

Case rested.

UB

gsm1

What exactly does that mean? Can you expand? Is it okay for another country to invade the UK because they feel it is their business?

Well, yes you could say the whole world did have an interest in the business of Iraq as every country does in whatever may affect them but only Blair and Bush felt they had the right to invade a sovereign nation illegally.

There was a steady supply already before this invasion, now pipelines are being blown up regularly. But of course all the mayhem is not doing the likes of Haliburton any losses - Iraqi oil and American taxpayers will always keep their bills paid and they will get richer by the minute regardless of who gets killed. Oil will always be available, regardless of whoever is in power in these countries. Oil is there to be sold. It is a myth that unless we take control of these countries that our economies will be held hostage to oil prices. The western oil companies and their corrupt politician friends are not doing the average taxpayer in the west any special favours or discounts. These oil producing countries need the rest of the world as much as the world needs them.

As for why we haven't invaded Saudi Arabia, there is no need to. The Saudi Royal Family are allied already with the Brits and esp the USA. This was Saddam's mistake. If he had still been in the US's pocket he would still be in power today and you'd be hearing President Bush telling us how Saddam is a 'stand up guy' who stands against terrorism. Iraq was a secular state, anti-west sentiment was fairly unheard of amongst Iraqis but since the 91 war and the crippling sanctions the rise of fundamentalists had grown. The US took their chances with trying to court the Iraqi people but if they did that in Saudi they would have no chance at all. An invasion in Saudi would make Vietnam look like a picnic. Their only option is to keep a precariously seated Saudi Royal family on the throne.

For the average Joe on the street it may be about morality and making things 'better' for the citizens of other countries and many may have believed this about Iraq but that was just a sweet propaganda package that's always sold to them. Hitler, Mussolini etc. all claimed they were invading to 'liberate the people'. It's the big money men, the big corporations who make the real decisions and morality doesn't come into it. Why is the USA providing such support for dictators like Karimov in Uzbekistan, for example?

<knocked up in a rush - pls excuse typos etc! >

Aaquil

SURESH WRITES:
"I tend to subscribe to the school of thought that organised religion is usually the refuge of the weak-minded, as it requires that people blindly obey old books that supposedly fell out of the sky and must not develop and use their own reasoning."

Well I'm sorry I wont be able to answer your question:

"...going back to one of the points a few pages back, you stated something along the lines of that the Koran allows lives to be taken when the cause is just. My concern is that this a very subjective 'law' and therefore it allows extremist [non representitive] leadership to stipulate what is and isn't just. Would appreciate your opinion."

As I am obviously "...weak-minded..." and I am required to "...blindly obey old books that supposedly fell out of the sky..."

So my answer would probably not be up to your intellectual prowess. As for the statement

"...old books that supposedly fell out of the sky..."

I find that highly offensive and you are well out of order...get your answer from someone else who is up to your high standards!

TO MY FRIEND LITTLE MISS WRX (MICHELLE):

I'm sorry I had to respond to him (SURESH) if you read his thread above and what I have copied and pasted of it you will hopefully understand why I responded. I had to...

Regards Aaquil.

Aaquil

By the way back slapping is good...slagging off is not. There is too often too much slagging off on these threads that is just unecessary. This one makes a nice change apart from a few comments and no I am not pointing any fingers at Suresh I have already written what I had to write to him/her.

LESLIE, DIESEL AND LITTLE MISS WRX PLEASE READ MY PREVIOUS REPLIES TO YOU ON PAGE 11.

Aaquil.

unclebuck

Not if it's designed to achieve political point scoring by insidiously exploiting an issue.

That's corrupt.

<edit to say> Of course, nobody is doing anything like that on this thread.

UB

Aaquil

Uncle Buck I mean and you know exactly what I mean...being just plain nice to one another whether in agreement or not without trying to gain Political points or any exploiting.

Aaquil.

unclebuck

I totally agree. In an ideal world... But there are some funny people about, if you know what I mean.

UB

Aaquil

I know exactly what you mean UB. Anyway I'm going to bed as I am working tommorow. I'll be back on in the morning to see what's been going on.

Aaquil.

Aaquil

Now you edit it...after I've written my reply...that's well sly (Joke by the way).

unclebuck

Yea... good night to you and yours...

there was no agenda in my edit BTW I just qualified it.

UB

Aaquil

Take it easy UB we'll carry on with the fun here in the morning.

Brit_in_Japan

BigJoe, are you are saying tolerance is a bad thing and intolerace is a good thing? You may disapprove of Chavs wearing Burberry but do you have the right to stop them from wearing it? OK, a cheap point, but we should only be intolerant of something if it stops us enjoying a basic fundmamental aspect of our lives. We should not have to fear crime, we should not have to worry about whether a wife/girlfriend/colleague can walk to their car safely, we should not accept it if/when politicians lie to us, we should not be tolerant of any fanatic (not just talking about religious fanatics) who insists that we must change our beliefs to match their beliefs. We should not tolerate being in fear of being blown up by suicide bombers. The question is what will lead to a lasting situation where such extremists are "put out of business". A military only response will only add more fuel to the flames, it will lead to more children without fathers, wives without husbands and siblings without other siblings, the perfect raw material for future Al Qaeda recruiters and others.

What I want to know what is it that can be done to undermine those extremists and terrorists? We have to try and understand what the thought processes are which lead them to do these horrific things. The whole Israeli/Palistinian conflict is like a festering sore from which there extremists can constantly draw on new horrors and injustices with which to justify their actions. So some type of peaceful resolution is one of the keys to solving the Al Qaeda problem in the long term.


Because people do not trust the USA. They think they are acting out of their own self interest, not out of genuine interest for the Iraqi people. This was a fundamental reason why I and many many people opposed the war with Iraq, not because Saddam was a benign leader, but because it was carried out without UN backing, it further reduced the power of the UN to act as international policeman in the future and established the doctrine of pre-emptive military action as acceptable. Now the Russians say that they will hit terrorists wherever in the world they find them. Is the world a safer place?

After 911 the US had a huge amount of sympathy and goodwill from around the world, including the Islamic nations. The US has squandored that goodwill with it's actions in Iraq and has made the world a less safe place to be. I hope the US electorate will be intolerant of that.

andrewdelvard

Can you post the link you found that on?
Thanks.

martyrobertsdj

iTrader: (1)

I've deleted my previous post and edited this one to remove the link to another site.

As "Brit In Japan" pointed out....the quotes I copied from another site were maybe written by some funamentalist......and we don't want that on here do we!!

I'll probably have some more input later.

Marty

Leslie

Interesting link Marty, but who do you think made that pronouncement? Would it be someone who follows the basic teachings of his religion to lead a good life, or would it be a fundamentalist as described in previous posts who is trying to influence peaceful Muslims to support his personal ambitions by passing these statements off as genuine Islamic teachings?

Les

bigJoe

gsm1

Well maybe the fact that Iraq has a (recent) history of invading it’s neighbours, firing Scuds at Israel and hosting terrorist training camps makes it the business of the world – after all the UN had taken an interest and was trying (unsuccessfully) to bring them into line.

Brit in Japan

Don’t dis the Burburry!

I am questioning why we have to tolerate bad behaviour though, we’ve been doing it for a while and it doesn’t work – the boundaries of what’s considered bad behaviour just get shifted for the worse and we end tolerating again, except in more uncomfortable situation.

There comes a point when you have to say – no more. Sure invading Iraq isn’t the ideal solution , but in the current climate it’s the only one that will provide progress – talking just doesn’t work. Sure the middle easier situation may rumble on for another 10-15 years but it couldn’t have gone on as it was, imagine Saddam with ICMB’s – don’t think he’s use em??

At the end of the day though there is light at the end of tunnel, once oil can be obtained in large enough quantity’s from elsewhere, the world can forget about the middle east – that would probably the catalyst for a change for the better in the whole region.

As for world policemen the choices are USA, Russia or China and no you can’t pick the UN


Suresh

“when GWB gets retired later this year...”

Check the latest polls, you may be a bit disapointed

Brit_in_Japan

martyrobertsdj, what you quoted was from another website which in turn was copied from a post in from another bulletin board. Who is Allah-hu-Akbar? Is this a real person, a made up name, a crazy fanatic with no followers? Or is he the invention of some anti-Islamic group or individual who just wants to misrepresent the real views of Islam to perpetuate their own plotical agenda. The internet is a dangerous place and although it doesn't sound like you believe what was written, such writings are designed to inflame and misinform and in quoting it you have helped them achieve their objective. I did a search and I found some incredibly offensive, xenophobic, anti-islamic postings by someone with the user name "Allah-hu Akbah". It could easily be the same person. I am all for free speech, but I really don't think the quote you have included is in any way helpful to the discussion we're having. Would you please consider removing the quote?

andrewdelvard

Just to clarify.

Allah-hu-Akbar-Translation-God is Great.

Diesel

Guys I have reached closure on this - which is unusual and great! Also Aaquil needs to see his kids and do some DIY

My perceptions and approach have been changed mainly through Aaquil. My 'liberal' (??) approach has been vindicated by Joe - who, with his 'we know best' interventionist approach will just make things worse (although I suspect somewhat unwittingly so).

I still need to think more about the 'oil factor' - I still think that this was a side issue 'bonus'; it was the bogus WMD and the two fingers that Saddam had been sticking up for 10years that were more the reason for 'steppin' in - yeeehaaaa'...

Aaquil I seriously think you have work to do outside Scoobynet. I have NEVER heard a Muslim espouse such views so lucidly and intelligibly; you could make the UK a better place. You at least need to have a feature published in the Times; I can put you in touch with the editor. You need to be speaking on TV post the next atrocity 'in the name of Islam' rather than us hearing the rare and benign platitudes given by the current 'specialists' that the journos’ call first. If there is say a terrorist episode in a school in the UK it may get racially violent here – you have after all seen me frothing at the mouth at the thought of my baby being harmed. The NF & others will start ‘vindicated’ revenge killing and the thought they might get you because of your attire horrifies me. As I work in TV I can assist in pointing you in the right direction; you need to be heard. Please consider it and PM me.

Salaam (and don’t start speaking till the mic reaches you!)

D

gsm1

If that was ever published/shown by an Islamist website then I'm the King of Siam. Wouldn't it just be easier to write Vote BNP and save the propaganda?

Again you use a loose argument and have still failed to answer many of my previous points. Kuwait was invaded 14 years ago. The scuds aimed at Israel were during that war. Since Iraq has threatened nobody. What terrorist training camps? Are you going to tell me that lie about Iraqi troops taking babies out of incubators in Kuwait as well? The training camps, the mobile laboratories and the WMD were all a crock presented by the US/UK and their Iraqi opposition friends so eager to get their hands oily. The UN has a interest in many areas around the world, that doesn't give you the right to go and invade.

What couldn't have gone on? Iraq was not a threat. If I accused you of having something you didn't and then held a gun at your head unless you produced those items, what chance have you got?
I remember when the invasion had just started a spokesperson for the British military was questioned about Saddam using chemical weapons against coalition troops. Her response was "We have told him not to use them". Talk about laughable. Oh..right...this is Saddam Hussein, they guy you claim is a madman and has chemical weapons, but because you told him not to use them it's okay to invade? So when was he going to use them? Oh, I forgot he's hidden them in Syria, hasn't he? Yep, so sophisticated were the Iraqis they smuggled all the weapons into Syria but couldn't even smuggle themselves out and ended up hiding in family homes or in the case of Saddam a hole in the ground.

BigJoe, If you believe you have the divine right to run the affairs of others and the resources in their land then, quite frankly, the terrorists have every right to blow you up.

Aaquil

Diesel...I do wish to benefit as many people as possible through my profession (Dentistry) and my religion (Islaam). I would love to have a feature in the TIMES but would they want me to have that kind of feature they seem to always choose the kind of so called Muslims who fuel that issue rather than put it out! Muslims that always get on the defensive when criticised and start attacking others well self criticism is needed for the Muslims at the moment and if any Muslims don't like it then that's tough.

I'll have to go and carry on later...Diesel my friend I will try to PM you later...I'm on 'Mosque opening duty' today so they'll be outside waiting for me arms crossed and 'tutting'. I'll be back later...

Aaquil.

By the way...froth at the mouth when any innocent gets harmed let alone killed even one.