unclebuck

The Riot Squad are provocing the crowd from what I can see. Pushing them around, hitting them on the head with battons and filming them. WTF is going on? I think the idea is to get them to riot so they can be portrayed as acting like 'yobs and thugs'. Cunning, but the Police should never be used as a political tool.

UB

Butkus

The police should say "right, you've got a five minute head start then we're sending out the Range Rovers and the motorbikes to mow you down.... go on get running!"

Brendan Hughes

Where are a pack of frothing Dobermanns when you need them?

"See how you like it then..."

the moose

This is classic Tory vs Labour.

The Conservative view is, and almost always has been, than life is fine, nothing much needs to be revised, and that change is, overall, a bad thing.

The Labour view is that change is good - it must be, because there are so many bad things in the world, so that a change (almost *any* change) is better than standing still.

Neither of these worldviews is entirely right or wrong, though I tend to the latter. Think back to the days of slavery, of Empire, of capital punishment, of no universal suffrage. In each case the traditionalists decried the proposed change, claimed that freedoms were being eroded, that the rule of law was all to ****, and that *this* was a line in the sand not to be crossed.

The traditionalists lost, as they almost always do, because of the will of the people. In general, people don’t like hunting. It’s a fact, and even when the Countryside Alliance put up posters saying “46% of people support hunting” – I forget the exact number, but recall clearly that it was less than 50% - you know that’s the best possible number they could get, having couched questions in such a way as to get maximum support for their argument.

The real figure truly supporting hunting is probably more like 15%, with around 40% being just as vociferously anti- and the rest of us not really giving much of a damn about it. In general, those of us who aren’t that bothered either way see it as being a posh and/or yokel’s sport, where the rich get to ride around on very expensive horses and the poor get employment from this; this view may be incorrect, but that’s the general perception, like it or not.

The pro-hunting lobby don’t help themselves when the issue statement like “in a democratic society we don’t need to obey unjust laws” (quote taken from a Radio 5 interview this morning). Clearly, in a democratic society you *do* need to obey laws, even those which you believe to be unjust. Protest, sure, but ultimately obey.

And although the pro-hunters may not like it, there are more people anti-hunting than pro-hunting. OK, so the rural economy will be damaged – the damage to local economies didn’t seem to bother Tory voters when Thatcher closed down the steelmills and the mines, did it? It didn’t matter then because the people affected were poor and had no loud voice to represent them, other than Scargill, who was stupid enough to present himself as a mad Lefty, just the sort of person that even traditional Labour voters couldn’t stomach.

What really annoys me about this debate (I’m anti-hunting, for the record, though not passionately so – I don’t really care about foxes, I just don’t like the people involved, as a rule, and yes, I *do* know people involved in it) is that it’s so far off the agenda it hurts. I mean, let’s spend time looking at the NHS, at education, foreign policy ……..basically ANYTHING other than sodding fox-hunting

gsm1

Bloody hell, I'm agreeing with Bravo2zero on something!

Abdabz

I can understand some folk not caring about the fox hunting ban, but those who support hunting with dogs clearly have a screw loose.
I think we can call the countryside an industry in its own right, as it generates income through only a handful of ways. One is tourism and all it brings with it and two is paying some stablehands a few grand a year to feed horses and dogs in the name of fox hunting.
Like in any industry trends dictate the need to alter your sources of income in line with what the public wish to pay for.
So if hunting is banned the paltry few who may lose their income will have to find other ways of earning. So rather than getting a kick out of torturing an animal before watching it get ripped apart these guys have a choice 1/ carry on and go to jail or 2/ work in another countryside based job...
As for waiting 2 years before its banned once the bill is pushed through well thats even more daft! If its deemed illegal tomorrow then it should be punishable tomorrow. I imagine all those years ago "Errr murder is illegal but only in two years"... exactly...talk about going easy on the barstewards...
The arguement that shooting is crueller has me laughing too - course it isnt - dont talk twaddle - If as a gamekeeper you aer not capable of shooting an animal a few hundred yards away with a proper huting rifle then turn the gun on yourself - if you wound it track it and use a clean shot to finish the job.
Quite simply there is absolutely no arguement whatsoever to justify hunting with dogs - even those who may reply to this post will add no weight the other way for me...
Maybe a huntsman should be the fox for a day - then tell me its in the fox's interest.
Foxes interest my a$$...

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

If foxhunting was not a 'English countryside Tradition' the Fox would now be extinct.

Three men, 3 dogs and 3 shootguns WILL kill 10 tens more Foxes that 30 Horse riders and 30 dogs.

Foxes are ONLY abided on Farmland because of the 'Hunt' and as soon as 'it's banned' the Fox population will be extinct in 10years.

Years of Countryside evolution has maintained the balance of the fox population. Political interference is as bad as intruducing a foriegn animals into an Eco-system such as rabbit's and Cat's in the Austrailer's.

Tony

gsm1

Well, the ITN reporter said protestors were throwing bottles, firecrackers and all else. But I'm sure many innocent people probably got a few good whacks from the police.

gareth123

The Isle of Wight was a fox free place until humans took them to the island. So they could hunt them. The pro-hunt lobby can shut the **** up about it being vermin control.

Ban it ASAP.

(Yes, I've seen firsthand the damage foxes can do. I have no problem with farmers shooting them).

Jye

As someone who shoots and goes fishing (and I eat what I catch or shoot) I despise fox hunting as much as I despise badger baiting and dog fights.

I think it was it Oscar Wilde who called fox hunting with hounds "The unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable". Wannabe blue blood tally ho w@nkers looking for old money snob appeal. It's not for control, that has been covered. So is it a sport? Radio-equipped trucks for tracking, "earthstoppers" to fill every fox hole they can find the night before, "blooding" of newbs (usually children), nope it's all about an anachronistic social scene and nothing more.




Cool sport m8

unclebuck

Jye - this is not about fox hunting mate. It's about social engineering and pure politics.

This goes all the way back to the miners' strike. It's pay-back from Labour for the Tories closing of the pits way back in the early eighties. Now they've returned to destroy 'the Toffs way of life' as they mistakenly see it.

Like the miner's strike, this decision will create bitterness for years to come. So much for reform and 'the third way', eh?

UB

Jye

OK UB m8, I know new labia are complete gimps, but let’s face it so are the fox hunters. BTW I do worry about who's next on the ban list and I pretty much detest banning anything without good grounds (and imo there are in this case) but please explain the social engineering bit as I'm not sure I get your drift. I doubt banning fox hunting will ever make up for what that shrivelled old bitch was responsible for during the miners strike, if it would I'd support a ban even more tbo

ajm

Good post Tony, couldn't agree more!

Fox hunting is conservation - unfortunately the fact that people also enjoy doing it is enough for the fickle nose pokers to want to ban it in order to try and hurt the people they see as "toff class", as is evident in many of the bitter posts in this thread.

Now the damage is done I guess we will be forced to sit and watch what happens to countryside ecology when the government becomes involved in something it doesn't understand in order to please a group of ignorant meddlers with chips on their shoulders.

Jye

lol @ Jason UB, twisting a thread to politically thwart the Labour Party, no way baby

Jye

Jye - a bitter, bitter man scoff, scoff

unclebuck

It's called 'developing an argument'.

Let's face if it were any other 'ethnic minority' instead of an idiginous one, the very same people would be arguing for their protection under the 'Human Rights' act.

UB

PeteT

IMHO this whole thing has nothing to do with animal welfare and everything to do with class warfare, look how many times the word "Toff" has been used in the anti-hunt arguments.
If you want to see real cruelty in the countryside visit a battery farm and then sit down to your boiled egg in the morning with a clear concience.

PeteT

IIRC "Free range" hens have something like 1sq yard to roam around in rather that 1sq foot and access to a small patch of mud outside.

SJ_Skyline

I do quite fancy the idea of hunting down mice with packs of cats

Regardless of what people think, this is just as much a political issue as it is about hunting.

All IMHO of course.

ajm

Conservation is not about conserving one species, is it about maintaining a balance between the foxes, their prey, our livestock etc.

Hunting is a tradition, part of our heritage, a sport for some, a livelihood for others, but above all it is an activity that has kept things in balance for the last 300 years!

Banning it is going to have a long lasting negative knock-on effect.

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Thanks,

I was brought up in a Rural area (although a Towny) and I certainly don't agree will animal cruelity and not really 'For' Fox Hunting but City folk are damaging an Ecology they don't understand.

Only the 'blind City folk' can't see the Damage it will do to the Countryside Ecology.Most land owners ONLY 'allow' the Fox to breed on their land and put up with these viscious vernin because of 'Fox Hunting'. As I said in my previous post, Two years time the Contrywide extermination of the Fox WILL begin and sorry the Fox WILL lose


Very nicely put

Tony

gareth123

When we started hunting with rifles and shotguns didn't we upset this delicate balance? Looks like the balance survived to me, so I'm sure it can cope with excess foxes being shot instead of hunted with dogs.

How *exactly* is The Balance upset by a fox being shot as opposed to killed by dogs? How does The Balance know? Is there a weekly report sent to The Balance on the specific method of death for all wildlife?

unclebuck

That is precisely the point. The banning of hunting is *not* rational. It's political.

UB

ajm

How have you managed to interpret what I wrote in this way? I make no assumption when I say that hunts are a part of predation on foxes that, along with other methods, has worked very well in keeping a healthy balance between the fox population and the prey populations for hundreds of years. Its a self regulating way of keeping the the fox population stable because the people who want them dead are incentivised not to kill too many.

Scrutinise by all means, but in my view the actions have been anything but rational.

Well I hope you are right, but I'm araid I cannot agree with you. I am an avid conservationist and even I cannot tell exactly what will happen. You mentioned arrogance above, I believe beaurocrats messing with an established and proven system, especially one that could affect species population, is arrogance in the extreme.

gareth123

It's a rational action for a humane people to take. Or are we not humane? And if we're not, shouldn't we strive to be so?

paulr

Me too,i'm worried.

..

ajm

Correct. The fox cannot be exterminated it is an important predator, just like we are an important predator of the fox.

unclebuck

Banning something requires no thought and no insight. It is a simple form of legislation designed to please the masses. Do you think the many folk whose livelyhoods and way of life will be destroyed by this are being treated in a humane way?

UB

Echo

Ban it. It was an important part of Labour's manifesto so it's about time the law was passed. I live in the Cotswolds and grew up in the country and used to be taken of fox hunts when I was a kid. It's mostly snobby, loud, boorish people that are involved (in my experience) who mostly spend the week in their BMW's pushing people out of their important way.



Mike