Ok, Fox Hunting.
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Originally Posted by unclebuck
I don’t know if this has already been done to death on here but I don’t remember any previous threads on the subject.
Well, this time it looks as though the game is finally up for the pro-hunt lobby. Seven years ago when New Labour came to power I would have probably supported getting rid of hunting with dogs as an outdated anachronistic toffs pass-time.
Now I can see what it’s really about… Of course, it not Politically Correct to hunt foxes with dogs, and what do we do with all such non-Politically Correct activities? Yes, we *ban*them of course. We don’t care about wiping out generations of tradition, or the destruction of a centuries old way of life that will affect thousands of country dwellers.
This is a purely political decision and is being done for all the wrong reasons. These people don’t care about the well being of foxes, it’s just a spiteful attack on the indigenous people and traditions of this country by a group of here today, gone tomorrow political minnows – the Labour Back Benchers. If this is New Labour democracy in action then frankly I have to say, it stinks.
Or have I missed something?
UB
Well, this time it looks as though the game is finally up for the pro-hunt lobby. Seven years ago when New Labour came to power I would have probably supported getting rid of hunting with dogs as an outdated anachronistic toffs pass-time.
Now I can see what it’s really about… Of course, it not Politically Correct to hunt foxes with dogs, and what do we do with all such non-Politically Correct activities? Yes, we *ban*them of course. We don’t care about wiping out generations of tradition, or the destruction of a centuries old way of life that will affect thousands of country dwellers.
This is a purely political decision and is being done for all the wrong reasons. These people don’t care about the well being of foxes, it’s just a spiteful attack on the indigenous people and traditions of this country by a group of here today, gone tomorrow political minnows – the Labour Back Benchers. If this is New Labour democracy in action then frankly I have to say, it stinks.
Or have I missed something?
UB
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Originally Posted by **************
Its been saved for a time when Labour need a pick up in ratings.
However I totally support the ban although I detest Labour. About time this out of date activity was stopped, period. If foxes need controlling then use alternative methods of which there are plenty. No excuse for fox hunting apart from wanting to participate in a blood thirsty slaughter of a wild animal.
However I totally support the ban although I detest Labour. About time this out of date activity was stopped, period. If foxes need controlling then use alternative methods of which there are plenty. No excuse for fox hunting apart from wanting to participate in a blood thirsty slaughter of a wild animal.
Well the pro hunting lobby say in excess of fifty per cent (I don't know the figure) don't want the ban so I don't think they would win any extra support.
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Originally Posted by Jason Crozier
When a Lion brings down a Zebra it massages it's nose causing it to immediately go into a trance like state. This is essential as the Lion cannot possibly afford to get injured in an extended struggle. It kills, it eats, it survives.
I think you'll find it SUFFOCATES it by pinching the windpipe or putting its jaws around its nose and mouth. Welcome to nature at its harshest!
Don't presume to tell me what galls me and what doesn't.
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Originally Posted by Jason Crozier
You surprise me ajm, I wouldn't have thought you would have stooped to insults in an attempt to justify your opinion.
However, if I have offended you then I apologise. I have no need or desire to insult anyone.
(except maybe Jye )
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I've heard ajm talk some boll0x before now (mostly on cat threads) but his posts here take the biscuit!
The pro lot here are contradicting themselves massively - no surprise there though as their argument is so flawed they have to claim its all a political issue
One says fox hunting hardly has any affect on the population as the hunt isn't that susccessful, while another says its needed to control the population. Which is it then as it can't be both ffs! Then there are the statistics that claim during the ban on hunting while foot and mouth was rife the fox figures didn't hardly change, therefore there was no boom due to lack of hunting/population control so shows the hunt has **** all affect on fox population figures and totally not needed.
The fact is its cruel to hunt a wild animal with hounds and let a pack of hounds rip that animal to pieces when they catch it. Its not a natural one animal on one animal like ajm said earlier Its nothing more than a blood thirsty tradition thats way out of date and needs put in the same banned basket as badger baiting and **** fighting.
Wish I had more time to go into detail with pulling ajm's responses to pieces but right now I don't so this will have to do!
The pro lot here are contradicting themselves massively - no surprise there though as their argument is so flawed they have to claim its all a political issue
One says fox hunting hardly has any affect on the population as the hunt isn't that susccessful, while another says its needed to control the population. Which is it then as it can't be both ffs! Then there are the statistics that claim during the ban on hunting while foot and mouth was rife the fox figures didn't hardly change, therefore there was no boom due to lack of hunting/population control so shows the hunt has **** all affect on fox population figures and totally not needed.
The fact is its cruel to hunt a wild animal with hounds and let a pack of hounds rip that animal to pieces when they catch it. Its not a natural one animal on one animal like ajm said earlier Its nothing more than a blood thirsty tradition thats way out of date and needs put in the same banned basket as badger baiting and **** fighting.
Wish I had more time to go into detail with pulling ajm's responses to pieces but right now I don't so this will have to do!
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I've heard ajm talk some boll0x before now (mostly on cat threads) but his posts here take the biscuit!
Originally Posted by **************
Wish I had more time to go into detail with pulling ajm's responses to pieces but right now I don't so this will have to do!
a) its too late its as good as banned now anyway
b) I will continue to participate in the field sports I do regardless of what anyone else thinks
I'm here because I want an insight into the mind of the sort of person who enjoys enforcing their personal moral views upon the activities of other people. So when you get a bit of spare time I will gladly explain all over again, not that I imagine you would be receptive to the answers in the slightest.
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Originally Posted by ajm
I was referring to the fact that you were challenging my facts on UK deer hunting laws by quoting USA laws!
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Originally Posted by ajm
I'm here because I want an insight into the mind of the sort of person who enjoys enforcing their personal moral views upon the activities of other people.
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I'm here because I want an insight into the mind of the sort of person who enjoys enforcing their personal moral views upon the activities of other people.
UB
#190
Personally I don't want it banned. Never done it and have no interest. We are about the only country in the world that gives animals almost human rights. Sheep are transported with more care and consideration than humans on LUL. Spain, France etc couldn't care less.
It boils down to PC. The Anti's want to see it stopped just because they think it's wrong and as a result feel it should be banned and they don't care if anyone disagrees. Very blinkered.
People want speeders much more harshly punished to stamp out speeding. But most are against it. Civil Liberties etc. But when it comes to something furry and dog like, they throw their toys out of their prams.
What next, Rabbit hunting to be banned? Poor little fluffy. Hare coarsing, Dear Hunting, pigeon hunting. Go outside to get some pigeon pie, pop bang, there goes Mr Pigeon. Will that be banned???
If the fox was an endangered species fair enough. But it's not, it's vermin. Mangy old discoloured things.
It boils down to PC. The Anti's want to see it stopped just because they think it's wrong and as a result feel it should be banned and they don't care if anyone disagrees. Very blinkered.
People want speeders much more harshly punished to stamp out speeding. But most are against it. Civil Liberties etc. But when it comes to something furry and dog like, they throw their toys out of their prams.
What next, Rabbit hunting to be banned? Poor little fluffy. Hare coarsing, Dear Hunting, pigeon hunting. Go outside to get some pigeon pie, pop bang, there goes Mr Pigeon. Will that be banned???
If the fox was an endangered species fair enough. But it's not, it's vermin. Mangy old discoloured things.
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Originally Posted by Sith
If the fox was an endangered species fair enough. But it's not, it's vermin. Mangy old discoloured things.
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Check out this thread:
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=362167
It's a link to a story about some youths booting a puppy about, and the response across the board seems to be one of revulsion, with outraged Scoobynetters queuing up to register their disgust.
"It's all the parents fault", "why don't the govt do something" blah yak etc.
Then we get a discussion on fox hunting, the *same* animal cruelty just dressed up differently, and oh how the arguments change. "It's tradition". "It's people's right to do it". "The govt are just interfering for political reasons".
Presumably the pro fox hunting lobby on this thread would regarding preventing these youths from doing things like puppy football to be an "erosion of their civil liberties". Why is it peoples "right" to kill foxes but not puppies?
Nice quote from one of the Loonyside Alliance contingent that ran into parliament.
"This isn't democracy. You are overturning democracy.".
What, some elected MPs voting on an issue? The House of Lords are the ones who "overturn democracy". What an idiot. Fortunately, the days of these clowns and their silly "sport" seem to be well and truly numbered. At long last, the Blair govt gets something right.
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=362167
It's a link to a story about some youths booting a puppy about, and the response across the board seems to be one of revulsion, with outraged Scoobynetters queuing up to register their disgust.
"It's all the parents fault", "why don't the govt do something" blah yak etc.
Then we get a discussion on fox hunting, the *same* animal cruelty just dressed up differently, and oh how the arguments change. "It's tradition". "It's people's right to do it". "The govt are just interfering for political reasons".
Presumably the pro fox hunting lobby on this thread would regarding preventing these youths from doing things like puppy football to be an "erosion of their civil liberties". Why is it peoples "right" to kill foxes but not puppies?
Nice quote from one of the Loonyside Alliance contingent that ran into parliament.
"This isn't democracy. You are overturning democracy.".
What, some elected MPs voting on an issue? The House of Lords are the ones who "overturn democracy". What an idiot. Fortunately, the days of these clowns and their silly "sport" seem to be well and truly numbered. At long last, the Blair govt gets something right.
Last edited by popeye; 16 September 2004 at 01:40 AM.
#193
Originally Posted by gareth123
So shoot them. Job done. End of story.
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Originally Posted by Sith
But why stop these people doing what they want just because others don't like it? .
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Originally Posted by Puff The Magic Wagon!
The only way to truly sort out the debate is to have a plebisite on it
They could also put this "59% in favour of it" claim to the test as well. (Even though, as with everything else they claim, it's total tosh).
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OPINIONS ARE LIKE ARSEHOLES.................
EVERYBODY'S GOT ONE
AND MOST OF THEM STINK!!!!!
We all have our feelings on foxhunting.....I'm kinda torn between the two (bit like a fox with hounds the eh?)!!!
My wife and I have horses and she has "hunted" quite a few times. I put the inverted commas there, as she was along for the ride on the horse and never saw much of the fox at all!!
I think the hunt probably only caught 1 out of 4 or 5 foxes that they chased.
I am an animal lover and have always found the thought of chasing a fox for fun quite horrible. However......the arguments about country jobs, etc are reasonably valid and for someone to say "thousands lose their jobs all the time.....get over it" is a bit daft!
They didn't say that at the miners strike........or did they???
People will "get over it", but is it right to create these losses in ANY "industry"??
Fair enough....if it's banned, it's banned and that's the law. It won't affect me, as our horses are used for other events anyway.
Marty
EVERYBODY'S GOT ONE
AND MOST OF THEM STINK!!!!!
We all have our feelings on foxhunting.....I'm kinda torn between the two (bit like a fox with hounds the eh?)!!!
My wife and I have horses and she has "hunted" quite a few times. I put the inverted commas there, as she was along for the ride on the horse and never saw much of the fox at all!!
I think the hunt probably only caught 1 out of 4 or 5 foxes that they chased.
I am an animal lover and have always found the thought of chasing a fox for fun quite horrible. However......the arguments about country jobs, etc are reasonably valid and for someone to say "thousands lose their jobs all the time.....get over it" is a bit daft!
They didn't say that at the miners strike........or did they???
People will "get over it", but is it right to create these losses in ANY "industry"??
Fair enough....if it's banned, it's banned and that's the law. It won't affect me, as our horses are used for other events anyway.
Marty
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Originally Posted by Leslie
I am looking forward now to the news video of our brave policemen chasing the illegal hunt on horseback waving their truncheons!
Les
Les
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LOL Les me too, although I think hunt saboteurs will still be on the scene as they know damn well this wont be the last of fox hunting, except this time they can claim they are trying to prevent an illegal activity.
I wont hold out for any sort of sentence from the courts though for those who are caught still fox hunting, I would guess most of the out of date judges are actually on the side of the pro fox hunting lot
I wont hold out for any sort of sentence from the courts though for those who are caught still fox hunting, I would guess most of the out of date judges are actually on the side of the pro fox hunting lot
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No excuse for fox hunting apart from wanting to participate in a blood thirsty slaughter of a wild animal.
foxes are vermin mate, they litter everywhere, cr4p all over the garden and offer nothing to my well being or comfort.
flea bitten scumbags should be hunted down!!!!
boo to labour, once again, but they have gone for the majority of the countries opinions, i hope people can see through that.
BB
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Originally Posted by SJ_Skyline
My sisters dog chases squirels in the woods, would this be classed as hunting with dogs?
Irrespective of which side of the fence you sit on with regards the rights and wrongs of Fox Hunting surely it's a black and white Issue - Why spend so much time talking / debating etc. when you aint gonna change anyones mind on this one.
I wonder what will happen to the fox when it is only a predator / vermin and the Country folk can be sure of a Kill 100% of the time they go "Hunting". I wonder if they will become a protected species like Badgers or will they be wiped out from the British Countryside all together ?
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Originally Posted by beemerboy
foxes are vermin mate, they litter everywhere, cr4p all over the garden and offer nothing to my well being or comfort.
flea bitten scumbags should be hunted down!!!!
boo to labour, once again, but they have gone for the majority of the countries opinions, i hope people can see through that.
BB
flea bitten scumbags should be hunted down!!!!
boo to labour, once again, but they have gone for the majority of the countries opinions, i hope people can see through that.
BB
No one on this thread is saying they cannot be killed, its just the manner in which that is achieved.
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whats the diffference between this and driving your car at 70mph killing thousands of moths, flies, gnats and suchlike of god's creatures.
And Dazza I have lived pretty much most of my life with foxes being in our back garden/on our door step and I have never had any issue with them what so ever. Yes they are noisy, yes they can make a mess but they are a wild animal and to me its a privilege to be able to watch them in the garden playing with their cubs. The fox is one of Britains last remaining large wild mamals after the wolf went.
However I know the fox can and does do destruction to farmers property and livestock. I have no issue with the fox being killed for this reason but there are other means which it should be done, not the barbaric method of hunting with foxes.
Don't be silly mate, deliberately setting out to participate in an activity that involves extreme cruelty is not even on the same planet as hitting any creature with your car.
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I'm curious about one thing. Why does it always come down to class?
I don't think anyone is really suggesting that everyone who hunts is a blue-blood, are they? Because if they are then, frankly, they must be a couple of hounds short of a pack. Hunts and their associates come from all walks of society. The only requirement is that if you own a horse then you can afford to keep it. Which probably means that half the people here could join in if they so wanted.
And why is it that everyone who is anti-hunting is obviously a raving marxist whose sole aim is to crush the bourgeois elite? There are antis from all walks of society as well, rich and poor.
Obviously some of the hunt are loaded and lots of them are what you might want to call toffs. And some of the antis may be motivated more by their Socialist tendencies and a desire to ban something they see as elitist rather than by any concerns about animal welfare. But the majority of hunters are pretty normal folk in real life, as are the majority of antis.
I don't like this government but they always said they were going to do this. In fact, when they failed to do it in their last term there was quite a lot of fuss and bother and it was bumped further up the agenda to be dealt with if they got in again. They did, and that's down to election promises made at the time. Oh, and the fact that there wasn't a coherent opposition, of course.
Personally I'm anti hunting because I don't like the idea of killing anything for fun. I like seeing the hunt, I've ridden on drags and I have plenty of friends who hunt. I spent my formative years in the countryside, I'm an ex officer in the forces, I support public schools and I speak properly. Tabloid pigeon-holing would make me an avid hunt supporter yet I'm not. But the semi-pikey that I meet at the stables every other weekend is virulently pro hunt. I think he'd actually hunt anything at all with any means available provided there was a kill at the end. Yet your SWP lot would assume he would be well in with them because he has no class whatsoever.
Get over the class crap and you see hunting for what it actually is. An out-dated, unreasonably cruel and irredeemably unpleasant exercise in killing for sport. Hounds can easily be trained for drag hunting. If they couldn't then there'd be precious few drag hunts today and sabateurs with their aniseed trails would be wasting their time. There is no need for thousands to lose their livelihoods, they just need to adapt and move with the times.
The hunt is a great thing to see and hear, it probably does our tourist industry good and it's an image people associate with Britain. It needn't change that much. All that needs to happen is a change in the object. Lose the kill.
Many hunters argue that they don't kill that much and that they don't go out for that anyway. That's cool - the ban won't make much difference then, will it?
Here's an offer for any hunts. I've written to several anyway. I and my associates will happily act as prey for a drag hunt. In fact, we'll cover every drag hunt you do over the year. We're all ex commandos and will give your hounds a run for their money. Nobody needs to lose their jobs, nobody needs to break the law.
SB
I don't think anyone is really suggesting that everyone who hunts is a blue-blood, are they? Because if they are then, frankly, they must be a couple of hounds short of a pack. Hunts and their associates come from all walks of society. The only requirement is that if you own a horse then you can afford to keep it. Which probably means that half the people here could join in if they so wanted.
And why is it that everyone who is anti-hunting is obviously a raving marxist whose sole aim is to crush the bourgeois elite? There are antis from all walks of society as well, rich and poor.
Obviously some of the hunt are loaded and lots of them are what you might want to call toffs. And some of the antis may be motivated more by their Socialist tendencies and a desire to ban something they see as elitist rather than by any concerns about animal welfare. But the majority of hunters are pretty normal folk in real life, as are the majority of antis.
I don't like this government but they always said they were going to do this. In fact, when they failed to do it in their last term there was quite a lot of fuss and bother and it was bumped further up the agenda to be dealt with if they got in again. They did, and that's down to election promises made at the time. Oh, and the fact that there wasn't a coherent opposition, of course.
Personally I'm anti hunting because I don't like the idea of killing anything for fun. I like seeing the hunt, I've ridden on drags and I have plenty of friends who hunt. I spent my formative years in the countryside, I'm an ex officer in the forces, I support public schools and I speak properly. Tabloid pigeon-holing would make me an avid hunt supporter yet I'm not. But the semi-pikey that I meet at the stables every other weekend is virulently pro hunt. I think he'd actually hunt anything at all with any means available provided there was a kill at the end. Yet your SWP lot would assume he would be well in with them because he has no class whatsoever.
Get over the class crap and you see hunting for what it actually is. An out-dated, unreasonably cruel and irredeemably unpleasant exercise in killing for sport. Hounds can easily be trained for drag hunting. If they couldn't then there'd be precious few drag hunts today and sabateurs with their aniseed trails would be wasting their time. There is no need for thousands to lose their livelihoods, they just need to adapt and move with the times.
The hunt is a great thing to see and hear, it probably does our tourist industry good and it's an image people associate with Britain. It needn't change that much. All that needs to happen is a change in the object. Lose the kill.
Many hunters argue that they don't kill that much and that they don't go out for that anyway. That's cool - the ban won't make much difference then, will it?
Here's an offer for any hunts. I've written to several anyway. I and my associates will happily act as prey for a drag hunt. In fact, we'll cover every drag hunt you do over the year. We're all ex commandos and will give your hounds a run for their money. Nobody needs to lose their jobs, nobody needs to break the law.
SB
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
I'm curious about one thing. Why does it always come down to class?
I don't think anyone is really suggesting that everyone who hunts is a blue-blood, are they? Because if they are then, frankly, they must be a couple of hounds short of a pack. Hunts and their associates come from all walks of society. The only requirement is that if you own a horse then you can afford to keep it. Which probably means that half the people here could join in if they so wanted.
And why is it that everyone who is anti-hunting is obviously a raving marxist whose sole aim is to crush the bourgeois elite? There are antis from all walks of society as well, rich and poor.
Obviously some of the hunt are loaded and lots of them are what you might want to call toffs. And some of the antis may be motivated more by their Socialist tendencies and a desire to ban something they see as elitist rather than by any concerns about animal welfare. But the majority of hunters are pretty normal folk in real life, as are the majority of antis.
I don't like this government but they always said they were going to do this. In fact, when they failed to do it in their last term there was quite a lot of fuss and bother and it was bumped further up the agenda to be dealt with if they got in again. They did, and that's down to election promises made at the time. Oh, and the fact that there wasn't a coherent opposition, of course.
Personally I'm anti hunting because I don't like the idea of killing anything for fun. I like seeing the hunt, I've ridden on drags and I have plenty of friends who hunt. I spent my formative years in the countryside, I'm an ex officer in the forces, I support public schools and I speak properly. Tabloid pigeon-holing would make me an avid hunt supporter yet I'm not. But the semi-pikey that I meet at the stables every other weekend is virulently pro hunt. I think he'd actually hunt anything at all with any means available provided there was a kill at the end. Yet your SWP lot would assume he would be well in with them because he has no class whatsoever.
Get over the class crap and you see hunting for what it actually is. An out-dated, unreasonably cruel and irredeemably unpleasant exercise in killing for sport. Hounds can easily be trained for drag hunting. If they couldn't then there'd be precious few drag hunts today and sabateurs with their aniseed trails would be wasting their time. There is no need for thousands to lose their livelihoods, they just need to adapt and move with the times.
The hunt is a great thing to see and hear, it probably does our tourist industry good and it's an image people associate with Britain. It needn't change that much. All that needs to happen is a change in the object. Lose the kill.
Many hunters argue that they don't kill that much and that they don't go out for that anyway. That's cool - the ban won't make much difference then, will it?
Here's an offer for any hunts. I've written to several anyway. I and my associates will happily act as prey for a drag hunt. In fact, we'll cover every drag hunt you do over the year. We're all ex commandos and will give your hounds a run for their money. Nobody needs to lose their jobs, nobody needs to break the law.
SB
I don't think anyone is really suggesting that everyone who hunts is a blue-blood, are they? Because if they are then, frankly, they must be a couple of hounds short of a pack. Hunts and their associates come from all walks of society. The only requirement is that if you own a horse then you can afford to keep it. Which probably means that half the people here could join in if they so wanted.
And why is it that everyone who is anti-hunting is obviously a raving marxist whose sole aim is to crush the bourgeois elite? There are antis from all walks of society as well, rich and poor.
Obviously some of the hunt are loaded and lots of them are what you might want to call toffs. And some of the antis may be motivated more by their Socialist tendencies and a desire to ban something they see as elitist rather than by any concerns about animal welfare. But the majority of hunters are pretty normal folk in real life, as are the majority of antis.
I don't like this government but they always said they were going to do this. In fact, when they failed to do it in their last term there was quite a lot of fuss and bother and it was bumped further up the agenda to be dealt with if they got in again. They did, and that's down to election promises made at the time. Oh, and the fact that there wasn't a coherent opposition, of course.
Personally I'm anti hunting because I don't like the idea of killing anything for fun. I like seeing the hunt, I've ridden on drags and I have plenty of friends who hunt. I spent my formative years in the countryside, I'm an ex officer in the forces, I support public schools and I speak properly. Tabloid pigeon-holing would make me an avid hunt supporter yet I'm not. But the semi-pikey that I meet at the stables every other weekend is virulently pro hunt. I think he'd actually hunt anything at all with any means available provided there was a kill at the end. Yet your SWP lot would assume he would be well in with them because he has no class whatsoever.
Get over the class crap and you see hunting for what it actually is. An out-dated, unreasonably cruel and irredeemably unpleasant exercise in killing for sport. Hounds can easily be trained for drag hunting. If they couldn't then there'd be precious few drag hunts today and sabateurs with their aniseed trails would be wasting their time. There is no need for thousands to lose their livelihoods, they just need to adapt and move with the times.
The hunt is a great thing to see and hear, it probably does our tourist industry good and it's an image people associate with Britain. It needn't change that much. All that needs to happen is a change in the object. Lose the kill.
Many hunters argue that they don't kill that much and that they don't go out for that anyway. That's cool - the ban won't make much difference then, will it?
Here's an offer for any hunts. I've written to several anyway. I and my associates will happily act as prey for a drag hunt. In fact, we'll cover every drag hunt you do over the year. We're all ex commandos and will give your hounds a run for their money. Nobody needs to lose their jobs, nobody needs to break the law.
SB
Sounds very reasonable to me.
#209
everyone is entitled to an opinion,but in are so called free society,it don't matter what you say or do,or if you think you are right or wrong,someone will think you are a c**t i agree it's not so much about the hunting,as more people coming down to your neck of the woods and telling you how to run your lives. but what the so called animal lovers/do gooders don't realise,in 2006 and beyond they may have condemned hundreds of hounds,and even horses to their deaths,we shall wait and see,also there won't be mass legislation and control over culling,so more animals will end up with holes in their heads,a more humane way you might say,what about urban foxes?,i can't see van loads of shooters going around citys at night doing foxes!. i wonder how many anti-hunt people still go fishing or horse racing? spain tell people to f**k off when they kick up about bullfighting. finally are we all going to sell are subarus because japan still hunts whales,i think not!
#210
Originally Posted by mt fuji
finally are we all going to sell are subarus because japan still hunts whales,i think not!
I expect to see lots of Scoobs and Mitsi's for sale. NOT!