OllyK

It isn't a crusade against them - it is trying to get it discussed elsewhere, Parent and Child spaces is off topic for this thread and in comparison irrelevant.

It was unfortunatle then to use the word in a context where disability is being discussed and even more so to emphasise the "CAN" in the sentence.

TelBoy

Personally i see very little difference between Parent and Child spots and disabled spots. YOU are assuming that ALL disabled people are disabled NOT as a result of lifestyle choices - itself manifestly erroneous of course. But i guess that doesn't suit your "lifestyle choice, that's the difference" story.

At the end of the day, they're BOTH there to help the relevant groups of society, and anyone who thinks there isn't sufficient justification for either just hasn't had real-world expereince of them. Parking in them just to avoid door dings is plain selfish, end of story.

End of "hijack".

StickyMicky

all i wanna know is, how many times this thread has been RTM`d so far and how many mods are watching it like a hawk LOL

Jap2Scrap

There really should be 3 categories of allocated parking:

Disabled
Parent and Child
Coupés

OllyK

No - I didn't assume that at all
the other is something that you (except for some rare cases) had absolutely no choice about whatsoever

I don't deny some people have caused directly or indirectly their disability, but an awful lot of others have not. Have a look here About 8% of accidents that result in a physical disability result from sport. Most of the rest are car related (again some of which will be that persons fault) Then look at all the medical causes for disability. The bulk had little or no choice in the factors leading up to their disability.

There may well be some abuse of the system in terms of those with a blue badge that may not (or more likely may not visually seem) really in need of one, however, there are plenty (the majority) out there that do.

TelBoy

So are the disabled drivers who brought on their disabilities themselves less entitled to disabled parking spots than those who haven't?

How many disabled drivers have chronic asthma because of smoking?
How many disabled drivers need mobility assistance because of choosing to play rugby, choosing to become obese, choosing to go pot-holing?

How do YOU know it's rare?? You don't, and in any case, differentiating on the basis of whether a disability is effectively self-inflicted or not is impossible under the current orange badge scheme. You're trying to make a distinction between groups of society that simply isn't there in 100% of cases, and therefore any attempt to differentiate between parking spaces for the two groups is flawed from the outset, obviously.

OllyK

Don't believe I have tried to justify a disability ranking system. I have however said that "most" people that qualify for a blue badge are not there because of their own actions. Some are yes, as to whether they should be entitled to a blue badge or not because of that, well that's a different debate.

I don't know, do you?

I am guessing they fall in to the 8% of Accidental causes under the category "Sports injuries", but that's just a guess.

How do you know it isn't? Have a read up on some sites, ok there are not exact figures for every kind of disability cause and all the other possible contributary factors but I am pretty confident that there are more disabled people out there that are disabled through no fault of their own than there are children about that are here because the parents had no choice in the matter.

That would be blue badge scheme and who is trying to, only you it would seem. You said:
YOU are assuming that ALL disabled people are disabled NOT as a result of lifestyle choices

And I countered that I had not and that I accpeted and indeed already stated (for what it is worth) that not ALL disabled people are disabled through no fault of their own.

You are trying to tell me that I can't distinguish between a parent with 1 or more children and somebody that is physically disabled??? I do conceed that the 2 are not mutually exclusive, but I can also make a distintion as well.

Really - so why do we have "Parent & Child" AND "Disabled" parking? The differentiation is there for all to see otherwise it would be "Parent & Child / Disabled Parking"?

OllyK

Yup

Spot on!!!

Nice idea - do me a favour and work out roughly how many extra square metres would be required to this for say a 500 space car park. Then cost up that land in the USA and the UK and let me know the comparative land costs associated Nice idea though!

My point - its nice to have them, but if they are not there you can mange just fine if you have.

TelBoy

That would get my vote too, Dave, if room permitted. BlueWater in Kent has great big spaces, and footpaths to the shops that avoid the roads. It just takes space and a bit of planning.

Sure - anyone CAN shop without these spaces - i obviously have to if they're all taken, but it DOES irk me if somebody without kids uses them - there is no valid justification for it that i can see.

Olly, i've given up reading your replies, sorry. Do and think as you see fit.

OllyK

As it does me, but this is about a difference in perspective and comparitive importance not a difference in opinion about what is morally right or wrong. Parking in parent and child spaces just isn't a big deal in the scheme of this thread which is about disabled spaces.

In general an able bodied parent is more able to cope and has more options available to deal with the situation than somebody with a disability.

Claudius

My point exactly.


There arent sufficient financial resources as the local coucils spend that money on speed cameras.


These family and kids spots dont exist here...

David Lock

is there a disabled parking event in Paralympics? - could be fun

EddScott

paulr

i wonder how many parking bays there are at athens right now?

logiclee

I would love to live in your fantasy world where there are always loads of disabled spaces left empty.

The reality however is very, very different I can assure you. Most places only have a few, most pubs and restraunts don't have any and most atraction/leisure places never have enough.
Remember disabled people like to do other things other than going to the supermarket.

And yes I do tend to check other cars as I'm walking past them when disabled bays are taken up. Why? Because I've lost count of the the times Lorraine has come home after not getting parked.

Cheers
Lee

dba

Right,I have to police these bays for a living,and without question the majority of people that park in these spaces when they should not,are ignorant,rude,have no social conscience and couldn't give a toss about anyone apart from themselves.My staff have been verbally and physically abused for simply pointing out they aren't card carrying disabled drivers.I would go as far as saying some are just gutter insects.

Its no good arguing with these people,if they are selfish enough to park there they won't move,or listen to reason.If you do this,then stop the silly arguements to justify it,far better to just admit you are lazy and get on with your lives,and hopefully someday you will see someones elderly parents struggling past your performance car and a tang of humanity creeps in through your thick skull.

I have worked for 17 years in retailing and this still winds me up,simply becuase its an unneccessary arguement.For a start these carparks are private property and the retailer can impose any restrictions they want.I have a colleague who decided to ban able bodied customers who park in disable bays,and he had some scraps within days,but luckily he is a big bloke and has some big security gaurds.Good riddance i say,f**k off to Netto

RAJ27

I got diagnosed with Non Hodgkinson's Lymphoma last October. I had the cancer in my left shoulder, spine and the outside of my skull.

I have intense chemotheraphy and radiotheraphy since then.

I am 28. Sometimes I "look" normal, but in reality I have driven properly for the last year. Having Cancer can really mess up your blood levels and can make you dizzy.

I have a blue badge and I get the look from some people. I used to give the look to a number of people prior to be diagnosed as my mum is in a wheelchair, but now I undertstand that to never to judge a book by it's cover.

There are fraudsters I have to admit, but it's hard to know who is disabled and not.

J

TelBoy

Let's just answer this last point before moving on. The reason for this is that the spaces would be filled up with parents/children long before disabled people had a chance to use them, as the former group far outweighs the latter numerically, as anyone who uses either of these spaces will appreciate. Without trying to be funny, you really should think out your opinions more thoroughly before attempting to be dogmatic and petty on here. On some subjects, believe it or not, others have sounder reasoning and firmer logic on which to base their arguments than you. Listening and thinking rather than continually firing back point after point might be advantageous occasionally.

dba - i can only imagine. The level of selfishness and ignorance in society these days goes way beyond parking restrictions. Unfortunately, there seems to be little that anyone can do about it. Personally, i've always blamed the majority of it on the reduced contact we have on a daily basis with our neighbours, but who really knows? It's not pleasant a development, of that i'm certain.

dharbige

Exactly. This, OllyK, was my original point. Stop moaning about and, and respect their decision.
Oh, and before you harp on about people comparing parent&child spots with disabled spots, it's YOU who have been making the comparisons.
And the proponents of P&C spaces were only reacting to the ignorant posts complaining about their very existance.

The only person whinging is you. Nobody has even suggested that P&C spaces are as necessary as disabled spaces, so why do you keep whinging that they have?
(Oh, and by the way, YOU ARE NOT A MODERATOR! (Just in case you forgot.))

OllyK

Interesting how you choose to quote me out of context, but never mind. You were claiming:

"any attempt to differentiate between parking spaces for the two groups is flawed from the outset, obviously" See Post 186.

I countered that it is possible to differentiate between "Parent with Child" and a "Disabled Person" (although not mutually exclusive) and likewise between the parking spaces marked up for them as they are labelled accordingly. My point being that if you can't differentiate between them, they would be one and the same to all intents and purposes, they plainly aren't as we have parking spaces marked up differently for each group and as a result your logic was incorrect. The question was rhetorical by the way.

My opinions are my opinions, you may claim my arguments require a little more thought, but as you don't seem keen to put forward much in the way of an argument as to why "a parent and child parking space is more important than a disabled one" I am not sure what the above statement brings to the discussion.

I have my own style for replying to posts, that style is to include the original text broken down point by point and address each point in turn. I find this reduces the risk of mis-quoting, mis-interpretation and just plain avoiding the issues. It also makes it obvious which point I am responding to and saves the reader having to trawl back through numerous other posts to try and figure out what I am replying to.

You seem to prefer an opposite approach with affords few of the advantages mentioned above, no doubt you have your reasons for that approach.

OllyK

Please show me where I have moaned about the existence of Parent and Child parking spaces or suggested that the decision for supermarkets etc to have them is wrong. My arguments have been to do with people who seem to think that non-parents parking in parent and child spaces causes parents the same level of inconvenience and problems as it does when an able bodied person parks in a disabled space.

Have you actually read any of my posts? Please show me where I have "complained about the very existence" of parent and child spaces. Feel free to appologise for lying if you can't.

The whole of your posts reads as a whinge to me.

I think the suggestion that "any attempt to differentiate between parking spaces for the two groups is flawed from the outset, obviously" See Post 186, constitues a claim that there is no difference between them and therefore they are of equal importance - or maybe you read it differently.

And that statement brings what to the argument?

TelBoy

Why should i put forward that argument? I don't believe the above to be true.

They're both perfectly and equally legitimate, and should both be avoided by people not falling into the groups for which they are intended. There - clear enough?

dba

I don't need an arguement to differentiate between the 2 Olly,I can decide to ban all ginger people from my carpark,put 'Welsh only' spaces right at the back and make 'Subaru only' spaces smaller.I can do what I want.Obviously this would be ridiculous,or as ridiculous as hoping that my normal customers don't actually have an opinion on something so insignificant as to why parents can save 3 secs off their shopping trip and everyone else can't.
Its not for anyone except the retailer to decide who gets the best spaces,and we reserve those for drivers who need them,like J above.
As for so called invalidity claimants getting an orange card,so bloody what? Anyway,these cards aren't easy to get,and I should know,my wife is a civil servant working for the benefits agaency

Senior_AP

Back on track.

Disabled car parking is ok if:

1. You're disabled
2. In an emergency.

TelBoy

Emergency as in allowing the emergency services to attend you mean?

bren@apex

iTrader: (20)

Bloody hell, I put up a post for a bit of a maon and come back to find it 11 pages long!

The excuse that you dont want your car damaged is not valid. I often park in two spots but do so at the far end of the car park where its quiet and Ill not inconveniece anyone.

To say that its ok to park in a disabled spot because you dont want to walk accross the car park is rediculous. If you love your car so much then dont be so lazy!

scoobynutta555

Come down to my local Sainsburys then. Then we'll see who lives in fantasy land

If you bothered to quote the rest of my thread you'd see I'm specifically refering to supermarkets. No doubt you have a valid arguement with bays at other venues, but it's not the point I'm making. Read posts properly before climbing on your high horse.

Spoon

scoobynutta555- Specifically your supermarket maybe. Any supermarket I've ever been to would have posed problems to find an empty disabled parking bay.

Then if it rains, well, all the disabled come out to shop then!!

Senior AP-

dharbige

If I must:
After this, you changed tack to :
Yes, your later arguments were about this. The thing is NOBODY was suggesting what you were arguing against.

Yes, unfortunately. They were mixed in with people who had valid points. Have YOU read any of your posts?

This wasn't actually refering to you. Can your ego handle that? The original negative comment re P&C spaces was:

None necessary. It was your mistake.

Et tu.

Yes, I do read it differently. To me it says that the two things are so different that trying to compare them is a nonsense.

Nothing. I was just reminding you, as you seem to have forgotten:
What gives you the right to tell people what they should and shouldn't post?