4.5 CONVERSION better than 2.5??
22 September 2004, 10:34 PM
#31
Legacy in the USA?
The 911 unit with it's dry sump would sit nice and low in the front, headers are very tight to the underside of the block.
Can the CW&P in the front diff be reversed to avoid 5 reverse gears and one forward? (as a guess)
Even a 911 engine uses 4 bolts for the trans fixing; bloody hell this might work!
Must concentrate on the mods!
Time to sleep and dream,
911
The 911 unit with it's dry sump would sit nice and low in the front, headers are very tight to the underside of the block.
Can the CW&P in the front diff be reversed to avoid 5 reverse gears and one forward? (as a guess)
Even a 911 engine uses 4 bolts for the trans fixing; bloody hell this might work!
Must concentrate on the mods!
Time to sleep and dream,
911
22 September 2004, 10:52 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by 911
Legacy in the USA?
The 911 unit with it's dry sump would sit nice and low in the front, headers are very tight to the underside of the block.
Can the CW&P in the front diff be reversed to avoid 5 reverse gears and one forward? (as a guess)
Even a 911 engine uses 4 bolts for the trans fixing; bloody hell this might work!
Must concentrate on the mods!
Time to sleep and dream,
911
The 911 unit with it's dry sump would sit nice and low in the front, headers are very tight to the underside of the block.
Can the CW&P in the front diff be reversed to avoid 5 reverse gears and one forward? (as a guess)
Even a 911 engine uses 4 bolts for the trans fixing; bloody hell this might work!
Must concentrate on the mods!
Time to sleep and dream,
911
I think an engineer with a little development aptitude could take a little inspiration from this thread and, as I say - think outside the box - alternative engines could enhance a modern Scoob, now we have a strong trans system - I believe people are speculating 450 lb ft capacity?
I think 400 lb ft would be more than adequate for the road - if this can be accompanied by lag free full character engine - particularly flat 6 then it could be a rather exciting project -- 996 performance for under £25k - cant be bad (cheap high mileage / engine damaged Bug / Blob Sti @ £12 to £16k +, what £6000 for conversion?............. - Air cooled 911 turbo? - will any of these fit??? - Still quite like idea of Scoob flat 6, enlarged, HC, tuned and multi throt bodies - would sound awesome
Come on you tuners - will a 6 fit? - bear in mind with air cooled motor, you can remove rads.....
22 September 2004, 11:01 PM
#33
pmsl a 4.5ltr conversion, isnt this for peeps with a bottomless wallet 
the pure weight of the engine would trounce bhp/ weight figures plus it would be funny seeing an insurance quote for a 4.5ltr impreza
im sure ££££/lbs would not be worth it on an impreza try clawing your money back from that one, in a porche yes an impreza no
the pure weight of the engine would trounce bhp/ weight figures plus it would be funny seeing an insurance quote for a 4.5ltr impreza im sure ££££/lbs would not be worth it on an impreza
try clawing your money back from that one, in a porche yes an impreza no
22 September 2004, 11:09 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by stevebt
pmsl a 4.5ltr conversion, isnt this for peeps with a bottomless wallet the pure weight of the engine would trounce bhp/ weight figures plus it would be funny seeing an insurance quote for a 4.5ltr impreza
im sure ££££/lbs would not be worth it on an impreza try clawing your money back from that one, in a porche yes an impreza no
the pure weight of the engine would trounce bhp/ weight figures plus it would be funny seeing an insurance quote for a 4.5ltr impreza im sure ££££/lbs would not be worth it on an impreza
try clawing your money back from that one, in a porche yes an impreza noIt just seems people are happy developing a 4 cylinder 2 litre engine with hundreds of hours work and £5 to £10k when there might be an equally interesting alternative route for possibly less...
22 September 2004, 11:21 PM
#35
The thought of a porker engined Scoob crossed my mind. Would so much prefer somthing with some grunt that doesn't need to wait for stuff to start spinning.
..but I came up with 2 things that would stop me.
The Porker engine would be far better left it's original chassis
and my own scoob is in too good a state to start hacking it to pieces
Was thinking an aircooled jobbie....then you have the extra space at the front for the 2 extra cylinders (no radiator) Although you'll need a super-scoop on the bonnet to suck the air into the cooling fan, and would look crap.
..but I came up with 2 things that would stop me.
The Porker engine would be far better left it's original chassis
and my own scoob is in too good a state to start hacking it to pieces
Was thinking an aircooled jobbie....then you have the extra space at the front for the 2 extra cylinders (no radiator) Although you'll need a super-scoop on the bonnet to suck the air into the cooling fan, and would look crap.
22 September 2004, 11:21 PM
#36
On the subject of 6 pot engines it has been done, the 3 litre H6 engine from the Outback fits, but the siamesed exjaust ports don't lend themselves to easy twin turbo applications, the alternative is to fit an SVX EG33 (3.3 litre) engine.
Pat has been playing about with the installation of twin turbos on an EG33 in his Sti 2...his main problem was finding a home for the intercooler, otherwise it's a very neat fit and goes straight in...more or less
Pat has been playing about with the installation of twin turbos on an EG33 in his Sti 2...his main problem was finding a home for the intercooler, otherwise it's a very neat fit and goes straight in...more or less
22 September 2004, 11:29 PM
#37
The V8 is too long. Even if you moved stuff out the way, it will not fit infront of the Subaru gearbox. If someone did manage to fit it in, I think it would damage the weight distribution of the car so badly that the excellent dynamics of the car would be lost. I don't even like the idea of the flat 6 in my car, as it's set out to be a light weight car.
I also think you underestimate the flexiblity and response of a 2.5 with a suitable turbo, which still carries with it massive midrange torque.
Paul
I also think you underestimate the flexiblity and response of a 2.5 with a suitable turbo, which still carries with it massive midrange torque.
Paul
22 September 2004, 11:47 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by Tim W
On the subject of 6 pot engines it has been done, the 3 litre H6 engine from the Outback fits, but the siamesed exjaust ports don't lend themselves to easy twin turbo applications, the alternative is to fit an SVX EG33 (3.3 litre) engine.
Pat has been playing about with the installation of twin turbos on an EG33 in his Sti 2...his main problem was finding a home for the intercooler, otherwise it's a very neat fit and goes straight in...more or less
Pat has been playing about with the installation of twin turbos on an EG33 in his Sti 2...his main problem was finding a home for the intercooler, otherwise it's a very neat fit and goes straight in...more or less
22 September 2004, 11:48 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by Pavlo
The V8 is too long. Even if you moved stuff out the way, it will not fit infront of the Subaru gearbox. If someone did manage to fit it in, I think it would damage the weight distribution of the car so badly that the excellent dynamics of the car would be lost. I don't even like the idea of the flat 6 in my car, as it's set out to be a light weight car.
I also think you underestimate the flexiblity and response of a 2.5 with a suitable turbo, which still carries with it massive midrange torque.
Paul
I also think you underestimate the flexiblity and response of a 2.5 with a suitable turbo, which still carries with it massive midrange torque.
Paul
p.s. the AJP is only 21 ins long
22 September 2004, 11:51 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by ALi-B
The thought of a porker engined Scoob crossed my mind. Would so much prefer somthing with some grunt that doesn't need to wait for stuff to start spinning.
..but I came up with 2 things that would stop me.
The Porker engine would be far better left it's original chassis
and my own scoob is in too good a state to start hacking it to pieces
Was thinking an aircooled jobbie....then you have the extra space at the front for the 2 extra cylinders (no radiator) Although you'll need a super-scoop on the bonnet to suck the air into the cooling fan, and would look crap.
..but I came up with 2 things that would stop me.
The Porker engine would be far better left it's original chassis
and my own scoob is in too good a state to start hacking it to pieces
Was thinking an aircooled jobbie....then you have the extra space at the front for the 2 extra cylinders (no radiator) Although you'll need a super-scoop on the bonnet to suck the air into the cooling fan, and would look crap.
no - its fan will draw more than enough from the front opening, leaving scoop for its TMIC..
23 September 2004, 12:13 AM
#41
Originally Posted by Pavlo
The V8 is too long. Even if you moved stuff out the way, it will not fit infront of the Subaru gearbox. If someone did manage to fit it in, I think it would damage the weight distribution of the car so badly that the excellent dynamics of the car would be lost. I don't even like the idea of the flat 6 in my car, as it's set out to be a light weight car.
I also think you underestimate the flexiblity and response of a 2.5 with a suitable turbo, which still carries with it massive midrange torque.
Paul
I also think you underestimate the flexiblity and response of a 2.5 with a suitable turbo, which still carries with it massive midrange torque.
Paul
23 September 2004, 07:06 AM
#42
1970's racing 911's (ie RSR's) had a horrizontal fan to cool the engine, although Porches engines are significantly oil cooled too. Mine takes 15 litres of oil...
A big 911 engine, ie 3.5 L is an easy cheap build, has been very proven to work for 20 years or more.
Top this with fuel injection and the drivability is mind blowing, so flexible.
Come forward to the late 1990's and the Vario ram 3.8's and the game is so much further on.
A 911 Scooby is going to be the best in NA format, the 911 turbo is only just at 500 bhp/ 400 lbft, the going rate for a very good 2.5 (?), but the 911 will do it ALL DAY every day.
I am very bias here of course having a well tweeked 1973 911 (970 Kg) with a chipped 3.2 engine @ 240 bhp, and that engine is best left in it's original chassis!
Great debate though.
911
A big 911 engine, ie 3.5 L is an easy cheap build, has been very proven to work for 20 years or more.
Top this with fuel injection and the drivability is mind blowing, so flexible.
Come forward to the late 1990's and the Vario ram 3.8's and the game is so much further on.
A 911 Scooby is going to be the best in NA format, the 911 turbo is only just at 500 bhp/ 400 lbft, the going rate for a very good 2.5 (?), but the 911 will do it ALL DAY every day.
I am very bias here of course having a well tweeked 1973 911 (970 Kg) with a chipped 3.2 engine @ 240 bhp, and that engine is best left in it's original chassis!
Great debate though.
911
23 September 2004, 08:09 AM
#43
Pat's 33B project has been discussed a bit over on 22B, the threads here and here give an idea about what he's been up to...
I think I'm correct in saying that at the moment the project has slowed down because of Pat's work comitments (mapping everyone elses cars ) and the last time I saw it the engine was out along with most of the interior as the process of stripping the shell began in preparation to get it caged...
I think I'm correct in saying that at the moment the project has slowed down because of Pat's work comitments (mapping everyone elses cars
) and the last time I saw it the engine was out along with most of the interior as the process of stripping the shell began in preparation to get it caged...
23 September 2004, 10:57 AM
#45
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Originally Posted by ChristianR
depending on how heavily you tune a 2.5, u can get something like this (but I will be turning it down for everyday driving, especially with a top speed of 40mph! 
) :
) :Ye Gods!
What on earth was done to this?
23 September 2004, 12:10 PM
#47
AJP engine with bellhousing adaptor likely to be around 25 inches long I suspect, about 10 inches longer than a subaru engine, with much increased height at the top to poke through the bonnet. Sorry, not going to happen.
N/A 3.8 Flat 6 from Porsche more likely and with good performance too.
Paul
N/A 3.8 Flat 6 from Porsche more likely and with good performance too.
Paul
23 September 2004, 12:45 PM
#48
I'll measure my 911 and Sti engine width and 'free' length tonight. Having recently taken the Sti engine out it looked very close in width to the 911. As to the 6 cylinder length, Porsche keep them very short due to the overhang in the 911 chassis.
This would be a fun road car!
Just the air cooling gets in the way, but the 3.8 fan dia is small as you have the water cooled heads. Christ, you can even still have a heater! (but no Air con.)
911
This would be a fun road car!
Just the air cooling gets in the way, but the 3.8 fan dia is small as you have the water cooled heads. Christ, you can even still have a heater! (but no Air con.)
911
23 September 2004, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by 911
I'll measure my 911 and Sti engine width and 'free' length tonight. Having recently taken the Sti engine out it looked very close in width to the 911. As to the 6 cylinder length, Porsche keep them very short due to the overhang in the 911 chassis.
This would be a fun road car!
Just the air cooling gets in the way, but the 3.8 fan dia is small as you have the water cooled heads. Christ, you can even still have a heater! (but no Air con.)
911
This would be a fun road car!
Just the air cooling gets in the way, but the 3.8 fan dia is small as you have the water cooled heads. Christ, you can even still have a heater! (but no Air con.)
911
23 September 2004, 07:52 PM
#51
Right:
A 3.2 litre 911 6 cylinder is 800 mm wide and 500 from front pulley to gearbox housing face.
My Sti is 800 mm wide and 400 mm long from pulley to gearbox face.
So, just 100mm in it. Take the rad out and it's in! Oh boy, a hot rod Impreza.
911
A 3.2 litre 911 6 cylinder is 800 mm wide and 500 from front pulley to gearbox housing face.
My Sti is 800 mm wide and 400 mm long from pulley to gearbox face.
So, just 100mm in it. Take the rad out and it's in! Oh boy, a hot rod Impreza.
911
23 September 2004, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 911
Right:
A 3.2 litre 911 6 cylinder is 800 mm wide and 500 from front pulley to gearbox housing face.
My Sti is 800 mm wide and 400 mm long from pulley to gearbox face.
So, just 100mm in it. Take the rad out and it's in! Oh boy, a hot rod Impreza.
911
A 3.2 litre 911 6 cylinder is 800 mm wide and 500 from front pulley to gearbox housing face.
My Sti is 800 mm wide and 400 mm long from pulley to gearbox face.
So, just 100mm in it. Take the rad out and it's in! Oh boy, a hot rod Impreza.
911
Are there more powerful motors of same proportions likely to be available for practical price from breakers / tuners - Autofarm still going?
Can you get the dry weight for the unit - presumably being dry sumped it will line up with tranny ok....
23 September 2004, 10:29 PM
#56
The engine's just a feeble 240 bhp but in a 970 kg car....1985 engine.
For 3K you can get a full 3.6 maybe a 3.8 with Varioram complete with ecu.
Being sumpless, you could align with the g'box input shaft and still get over the front crossmember.
Front engine mounts are easy as they come off the front of a 911 to the extreme sides of the motor, just weld to the chassis using stock 911 biscuit mounts.
Starter motor is as Impreza, and the later 911's had pull type hydrulic clutch a la Impreza.
this combo is not ballistic. 3.8 = 300 bhp/300 lbft and the car weighs 1.25tonne.
Now, put that engine in a 970Kg early 911 and we have a real car.
my 911 off the start of a hill climb will cover the first 64 feet in 2.07 secs on road tyres @ 240 bhp. My Sti v3 will do exactly the same on moulded slicks @ 314 bhp if i get it just so...
Going round a fast bend racing is another thing though!
911
For 3K you can get a full 3.6 maybe a 3.8 with Varioram complete with ecu.
Being sumpless, you could align with the g'box input shaft and still get over the front crossmember.
Front engine mounts are easy as they come off the front of a 911 to the extreme sides of the motor, just weld to the chassis using stock 911 biscuit mounts.
Starter motor is as Impreza, and the later 911's had pull type hydrulic clutch a la Impreza.
this combo is not ballistic. 3.8 = 300 bhp/300 lbft and the car weighs 1.25tonne.
Now, put that engine in a 970Kg early 911 and we have a real car.
my 911 off the start of a hill climb will cover the first 64 feet in 2.07 secs on road tyres @ 240 bhp. My Sti v3 will do exactly the same on moulded slicks @ 314 bhp if i get it just so...
Going round a fast bend racing is another thing though!
911
23 September 2004, 11:10 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by 911
The engine's just a feeble 240 bhp but in a 970 kg car....1985 engine.
For 3K you can get a full 3.6 maybe a 3.8 with Varioram complete with ecu.
Being sumpless, you could align with the g'box input shaft and still get over the front crossmember.
Front engine mounts are easy as they come off the front of a 911 to the extreme sides of the motor, just weld to the chassis using stock 911 biscuit mounts.
Starter motor is as Impreza, and the later 911's had pull type hydrulic clutch a la Impreza.
this combo is not ballistic. 3.8 = 300 bhp/300 lbft and the car weighs 1.25tonne.
Now, put that engine in a 970Kg early 911 and we have a real car.
my 911 off the start of a hill climb will cover the first 64 feet in 2.07 secs on road tyres @ 240 bhp. My Sti v3 will do exactly the same on moulded slicks @ 314 bhp if i get it just so...
Going round a fast bend racing is another thing though!
911
For 3K you can get a full 3.6 maybe a 3.8 with Varioram complete with ecu.
Being sumpless, you could align with the g'box input shaft and still get over the front crossmember.
Front engine mounts are easy as they come off the front of a 911 to the extreme sides of the motor, just weld to the chassis using stock 911 biscuit mounts.
Starter motor is as Impreza, and the later 911's had pull type hydrulic clutch a la Impreza.
this combo is not ballistic. 3.8 = 300 bhp/300 lbft and the car weighs 1.25tonne.
Now, put that engine in a 970Kg early 911 and we have a real car.
my 911 off the start of a hill climb will cover the first 64 feet in 2.07 secs on road tyres @ 240 bhp. My Sti v3 will do exactly the same on moulded slicks @ 314 bhp if i get it just so...
Going round a fast bend racing is another thing though!
911
24 September 2004, 01:26 PM
#59
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Originally Posted by 911
A 993 will cost the same as a good 2.5 USA engine screwed to 400 bhp, but the porker will be super smooth, bullit proof and sound so good!
911
911
could you be tempted?
do you have the skills?
I am just getting a quote from USA for equivalent in large bore Scoob 4 pot as benchmark / alternative
24 September 2004, 06:28 PM
#60
Always tempting, but the car is too good to cut about like this, and it would not be eligable for the hill climb class I race in, so no!
Have I the skills? Yep, and the confidence too having spent many years building hot rods in the 70's/80' before 'going 911'.
I think this kind of work is best with the simplicity of the NA engine, and realy simple if you take the 993 911 as it is 100% air cooled (Real Porsches don't have water pumps...)
The 911 turbo(s) would be exactly where the front fog lamps are on the Scooby...
The exhaust would be the only nightmare in the job.
Other considerations are the engine weight. The Scooby is probably 60% of the 993 engine, but you have no rad/water volume to offset the weight.
I think this is a real conversion. Stop distracting me!:
Good to talk about these dreams (sadly that is all it can be for now..)
9 1 : 1
Have I the skills? Yep, and the confidence too having spent many years building hot rods in the 70's/80' before 'going 911'.
I think this kind of work is best with the simplicity of the NA engine, and realy simple if you take the 993 911 as it is 100% air cooled (Real Porsches don't have water pumps...)
The 911 turbo(s) would be exactly where the front fog lamps are on the Scooby...
The exhaust would be the only nightmare in the job.
Other considerations are the engine weight. The Scooby is probably 60% of the 993 engine, but you have no rad/water volume to offset the weight.
I think this is a real conversion. Stop distracting me!
:Good to talk about these dreams (sadly that is all it can be for now..)
9
1 : 1
Last edited by 911; 24 September 2004 at 06:29 PM. Reason: spelling