LG John

I think this is the very PROBLEM with society today! Blame, blame, blame, litigation, litigation, litigation. You can't do anything without having to cover your own back and it just stifles creativity and who we are as people. Taking it out of the criminal context - we were looking at urban design today on a training course and in particular housing within urban areas. First you have to have roads and pavements that are of an acceptable standard, then you need visibility splays so that if little johnny runs out and gets run over its not the roads engineers fault. Next we need open space for people to enjoy but 8 foot high fences so people can't use the open space to rob the houses. Now we need playparks (x sqm per x houses). Now we have to shift everything this way because some old kings remains were found at spot Y, everything another way because of the nice trees at spot Z and back the other way because of a land ownership dispute. Finally we can think about putting houses on, but wait, they are too close and have to be made of timber as the ground can't take heavy structures - now building control can't allow them for fire safey and so on!!

I hope you see my point though. The whole world has gone daft ensuring that everyone is accountable for everything at all times and whenever anything goes wrong someone has to get the blame! Sometime things just happen!!!! We are an ordered race that live in a chaotic environment - bloody well accept it!!!!!!!!!

We'll, you know what! I played with chestnuts when I was a kid and can still see! I stayed out till dark and didn't get bundled into a van! I'd drop a sweet in the playground and eat it without being sent to the school nurse for a blood sample to be taken and so on.

Daft I tell ya, daft!

NotoriousREV

It's nothing to do with "blame culture", if you trip over a paving stone it's your own fault for not looking where you're going. I'd say that if he fell asleep at the wheel and then had a crash as a result, then he is to blame, same as if he'd gone out and drunk 10 pints before driving and had a crash.

davyboy

Surely in your example, it would be the fault of who ever laid the paving slab?

What if it was an old person who tripped over it.......cut her leg, got a clot and died. All because a council worker wanted to get home early to watch the footy. Jail Him, his boss, and the Cheif Executive!

NotoriousREV

paving slab laying is not protected in the same way as aircraft maintenance

Jye

Is that bóllocks or bollócks Spoon? Oh, and stop talking bollox

dtriggs

You are missing a big issue here. It is illegal to drive with too much Alcohol in your blood but it isnt illegal to drive whilst tired. He wasnt actually doing anything illegal until it is alleged he fell asleep.

He crashed and and didnt hit anything or anybody else. The fact the Car and Trailer ended up on the Track was more the fault of the Highways Division or Railtrack - there should have been fencing to stop any vehicle doing this - how can he be blamed for this error.

The guy comes over badly - so what ? He was convicted on the basis that he was tired, and there was no proof that there was a mechanical fault with the car - there was no actual proof he was asleep or doing anything illegal.

So does he deserve to lose his business, family, and almost his sanity ? Not in my opinion. The victims families dont want him ever to be able to make any money or have a life. How fair is that ? He has now done the time, so leave him alone. The press has alot to answer for. He was convicted before he got to court.

Leslie

Its whats known as personal responsibilty SB. He must have known that he would be dangerously tired after what he had been up during most of the night. How would you feel if during that last 20 minutes that you mentioned, you dropped off and went across the road killing someone coming the other way? Do you honestly think you could justify your actions and do you think you would not deserve a hefty sentence for depriving innocent people of their lives?

I know the modern idea is that if you do something wrong and cause someone else a great deal of distress then as long as you say sorry its all ok again. I don't go along with that-its only fair that people should look ahead to the possible consequences of their actions and act accordingly.

Les

Drunken Bungle Whore

My job is to make sure a fleet of over 1000 truck and lorry drivers are fully trained to do their job - and this includes health and safety.

It's a fact that more people are killed by tired drivers every year than are killed by drunk drivers. 20% of all fatal motorway crashes are due to tired drivers- and 14% of all fatal road crashes are tired drivers. The accidents are always worse because there is little or no braking involved. (Figure from TRL - Transport Research Laboratories)

On average 9 people die EVERY SINGLE DAY on our roads. 9 people are alive today and will not be tomorrow - and for as many of 2 of those people it will be because of someone driving while tired.

I don't know whether this guy was guilty or not - none of us does because we weren't there. But arguing about him does NOT change the overall facts.

mart360

erm will the americans take responsibiity for the friendly fire incedents then??

are you responsible for nav errors whilst flying ?? bombs dropped on the wrong target??

Mart

dtriggs

Those facts are no doubt the case, but this was different to a simple tired driver running into other drivers. It was the combination of other factors that killed 10 people. The track should not have been able to be reached from the road to start with. This was too harsh on what cannot be proven to be anything more than an unfortunate accident with multiple parties to blame.

The victims based their guilty decision on how he looked in court. One said she was 50:50 on his guilt until she saw how cold and business like he was in court. Who knows what was going through his mind - he was handling it best he could. How can you judge him on that ?

TelBoy

Is this still open for discussion?

Nicci

I thought this programme might make me feel sorry for the guy, but it didn't.

I am sorry to say that I fell asleep before it finished (I wasn't driving at the time).
Did I miss anything? (probably only the final couple of minutes).

blip

Agree with SaxoBoy on this - and I don't say that very often!

'There but for the grace of god go I' - no I'm not religious, but it's an important principle here.

Everyone saying 'of course if I did what he did I would totally expect the full weight of the law to crash down on me, and to be marched off to jail, etc, etc.' are doing so without REALLY thinking about the circumstances. The what if's in a case like this.

Easy to say in an online forum, but really IF that had happened to you are you saying you should be branded as a criminal and your whole life ruined as a result?? Or are you genuinely saying that it could never, ever happen to you? That you could never fall asleep whilst driving?

I have driven after doing all-nighters at college without even feeling drowsy. Equally I have driven after a normal days work and nodded off. Tiredness is not predictable, and it can be hard to know when you are too tired to drive.

As for saying it takes mental energy to ignore the warning signs - utter b*llox! Everyone knows how tiredness can creep up on you and disable parts of your rational, conscious mind undetected.

However, I do understand that the victims' families in all this want someone to blame. Not saying it is right but it is human nature unfortunately. But I wonder how many of those relatives have ever driven when too tired or even nodded off at the wheel?? I'm sure many of them have, but have gotten away with it, and not caused a huge fatal accident.

Freak

baaa
tabloid/mob justcie and sheep people.


Was an accident. Nothing more.
Had he fallen asleep then crashed into a pikey camp he would have been knighted...

baaa

Jap2Scrap

There was no intent and I think that has a lot to do with guilt. Even driving without due care and attention, reckless driving, etc. imply an intent to drive unsafely. Who here has intentionally thought "I'll get my head down for 5 minutes while the road's straight?"

speedking

This is a most extreme consequence of nodding off at the wheel, and should not be used to determine an appropriate punishment for every case of falling asleep.

To pick up the banana skin example, say the person that slipped was a pilot, showed no ill effects at the time, but later succumbed to a blood clot while landing a passenger jet resulting in multiple fatalities. Should the penalty for spilling a drink at a party relate to this possible (but very extreme) outcome?

5 years is way too much IMHO. Speeding fines are based on the potential for damage, not actual damage caused (usually zero), and this accident should have been treated the same.

Does everyone who jumps a level crossing light get 5 years? That is surely the event with the highest probability of causing this type of result.

speedking

Not commenting on this particular case, but if people are texting while driving, or wandering over three lanes because they're tired, they will eventually be spotted by Police (if there are enough out there). They will not be picked up by cameras. The law enforcers have decided to put the majority of enforcement resources against speed, and this type of incident is one of the consequences

LG John

I have often thought about that. I'd feel terrible at what happened and would have all the 'what if' thoughts. What if I'd gone to bed earlier, what if I'd had red bull, what if I'd put the windows down and blasted my music, etc. Those lives would haunt me for the rest of my days and I'd aways have them on my mind. Putting me in jail wouldn't make the blindest bit of difference and sure as well wouldn't 'teach me' anything.

In fact, - I'm going to be really honest - I'd go to jail a man who's only supposed crime in life was falling alseep at the wheel but I'd come out with a WHOLE different outlook on life. Do you really think I'd come out feeling like I owed society my time and that I should be grateful for any tatters of my life I can pick up and get on with. Er, no!!! I'd come out and sign on for every and any benefit the government can give me, I'd sell my story, I'd bum around and play poker (which I'm good at) with my dole money and I probably wouldn't have a second though about taking the wallet of some rich office boy in the park!!! Why should I, its not like my life can get much worse by turning to crime and I'd be feeling aggrieved at society rather than remorseful. Just the honest truth, that's what I'd be like.

NotoriousREV

I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I know when I'm tired, if you don't then maybe there's something wrong with you? Maybe I'm wrong, anbody elese unable to tell when they're so tired they're nearly nodding off?

Also, the "no intent" argument is rubbish. I didn't mean to kill 10 people, oh well that's alright, off you go.

And finally, blaming Railtrack is the real symptom of blame culture here. OK, admittedly several freak occurances happened together but the direct cause of this accident, according to the court of law, is that he fell asleep at the wheel and lost control of his vehicle.

If you can't cope with the responsibility of being in charge of a vehicle and aren't prepared to suffer the consequences of making a simple mistake that may end up in a fatal accident, then don't drive. Simple as that, IMHO.

LG John

I have to say that very often you can be driving along the motorway and suddenly you can't remember the last 5 minutes of your journey and you are 'sure' you eyes closed for a 2nd back there. So yes, it can just sneak up on you from nowhere especially if your drive is very boring.

blip

Once again I agree with SaxoBoy - LOL

NotoriousREV - there isn't anything wrong with me, but thanks for showing concern

I have indeed had drives where the alarm bells have gone off and I have thought sh*t I'm feeling tired and pulled in for a coffee, or opened the window, cranked the stereo up, etc.

BUT I have had other drives where I felt fine but, like SaxoBoy said, have realised I wasn't fully 'aware' of proceedings when I got home. Now, 9 times out of 10 that's as far as it goes - you get home fine without incident. BUT with me, just once the tiredness got hold of me and quickly took me to that next level and my eyes closed for a couple of seconds. Luckily I woke up in time, just before I hit a wall. I didn't choose to nearly kill myself - honest.

Now I am only human and most of the time there is a part of my brain that picks up my level of tiredness and sounds the alarm. I don't know why, but that day the alarm bells didn't go off. Does that make me a criminal? No. Did I have intent to kill? No. Did I consciously decide to ignore the warning signs? No. Am I human? Yes.

I guess you are Mr Perfect NotoriousREV? Or maybe you are just a cyborg??

NotoriousREV

5 years. Minimum.

LG John

Yer, proper fooked now

Leslie

Mart360,

I doubt very much that the US will take responsibility for friendly fire deaths unless they cannot find a reason to wriggle out of it. Governments regretfully are not prepared to accept responsibliity for their mistakes. That does not however absolve them from the moral necessity for doing so. I do not see how that relates to the argument in this thread.

When it comes to release of weapons, it was a primary requirement that they were not directed at an incorrect target. It was the crew responsibilty and finally that of the captain of the aircraft, not to allow the release of a weapon unless you were certain that the target was valid. I have not made that mistake after having released many weapons nor do I know anyone else who has.

It comes down to personal responsibilty and situation awareness, as well as a strong sense of the priorities of the moment.

Les

NotoriousREV

Damn you

<wanders off to assimilate someone>

Stueyb

I must admit, i've been close a few times. One that springs to mind was when we had a bad server crash. Was in at 7 am after a late night and I worked through till 3.30 am. Driving the 5 miles home was one of the hardest thing I ever had to do. Continual battle to keep my eyes open. But then again whats the alternative ? Stay at work?

mart360

its only fair that people should look ahead to the possible consequences of their actions and act accordingly.


So if gary hart wasnt aware of the multiple factors that transpired,. how the **** was he to know what would happen??

re the concorde incident... i dont see the maintenance crew being hauled into court for the deaths of the passengers!!!

what caused the crash? the piece of debris? the design of the concordes fuel tanks? the tyres failing? the electric lines being severed. the pressure wave in the fuel tank..

All were contributing factors.. and a tragic accident occured.

the rail crash, as with this incident, was due to a multitude of factors, all seperate and indepandant, that happened at the same point in time.

the point of my argument was you stated that its only fair that people should look ahead to the possible consequences of their actions and act accordingly.

So do you carrry out an fmea on every journey you do,
you have never made a mistake whan flying or driving a car,

if you say no then your telling porkys !!!

Mart

Diesel

6 months and out after 3. What he got was a huge vindictive overraction. There are FAR more deserving crims out there to do porridge but they get away with fines of £2 a week...

mart360

agreed..


nothing more to say


mart

Leslie

Mart360,

Nobody in this world goes through life without making mistakes, and of course I have done that both while driving and flying. It comes down to whether you are able to recover from that mistake without the possible consequences. If you go through life accepting that anyone can make a stupid mistake-even yourself, then when you do, you are better prepared to recover from it without a disaster. As I said before, its a matter of prorities of the moment and situation awareness.

In the case being discussed, its a matter of accepting that you might well have a serious accident should you fall asleep at the wheel and if you are just too tired to drive then you should avoid it, if not for your own good, then at least that of others.

Some mistakes, like this one, can be avoided by not putting yourself in such a dangerous situation.

The idea behind the prison sentence is to remind others that it might be worth not doing it because of the possible penalty.

Les