Strutbraces - Any point?
14 November 2004 | 03:12 PM
#62
So does a strut brace make any difference ? Some guys think it does and I respect their individual observations. Personally I think it makes little difference. It may be that some cars are less rigid than others although this seems unlikely. The classic shell was already pretty rigid and the later shells are even stiffer. Knowing the purpose of a strut brace I find it difficult to see how its effect can be more than marginal.
Danny B kindly posts (post 10) a quote from Damian Harty which is interesting so I guess it is up to the individual to decide whether to try it or not.
Edcase : I was perfectly polite in my posts but as early as post 22 "Grow up it was a joke". Later you questioned my manners and referred to me as a clown.
It is perfectly clear from other posts that you have some sort of problem with other Scoobynetters, not just me. I don't know how many times you said you weren't posting any more and you also suggested you weren't bothered with this BBS much so maybe you could do us all a favour and take your attitude somewhere else.
Danny B kindly posts (post 10) a quote from Damian Harty which is interesting so I guess it is up to the individual to decide whether to try it or not.
Edcase : I was perfectly polite in my posts but as early as post 22 "Grow up it was a joke". Later you questioned my manners and referred to me as a clown.
It is perfectly clear from other posts that you have some sort of problem with other Scoobynetters, not just me. I don't know how many times you said you weren't posting any more and you also suggested you weren't bothered with this BBS much so maybe you could do us all a favour and take your attitude somewhere else.
14 November 2004 | 03:26 PM
#63
Scooby Regular
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Life's Ruf
well most cars ive seen when racing have a strut brace, I certainly felt a difference in my MY02sti when using it at donnington just felt "tighter" and that had front and rear strut braces.
just my two peneth worth
paul
ps im not technically minded at all.
just my two peneth worth
paul
ps im not technically minded at all.
14 November 2004 | 07:36 PM
#64
Scooby Regular
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,794
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From: Throwing myself down a mountain at every opportunity...
Originally Posted by harvey
So does a strut brace make any difference ? Some guys think it does and I respect their individual observations. Personally I think it makes little difference. It may be that some cars are less rigid than others although this seems unlikely. The classic shell was already pretty rigid and the later shells are even stiffer. Knowing the purpose of a strut brace I find it difficult to see how its effect can be more than marginal.
Danny B kindly posts (post 10) a quote from Damian Harty which is interesting so I guess it is up to the individual to decide whether to try it or not.
Edcase : I was perfectly polite in my posts but as early as post 22 "Grow up it was a joke". Later you questioned my manners and referred to me as a clown.
It is perfectly clear from other posts that you have some sort of problem with other Scoobynetters, not just me. I don't know how many times you said you weren't posting any more and you also suggested you weren't bothered with this BBS much so maybe you could do us all a favour and take your attitude somewhere else.
Danny B kindly posts (post 10) a quote from Damian Harty which is interesting so I guess it is up to the individual to decide whether to try it or not.
Edcase : I was perfectly polite in my posts but as early as post 22 "Grow up it was a joke". Later you questioned my manners and referred to me as a clown.
It is perfectly clear from other posts that you have some sort of problem with other Scoobynetters, not just me. I don't know how many times you said you weren't posting any more and you also suggested you weren't bothered with this BBS much so maybe you could do us all a favour and take your attitude somewhere else.
Harvey, your initial reply to my observations about strut braces was polite, but very obviously challenging.
My reply to that (on page 2) was very even mannered and explained my observations from personal research and experience (which according to this post you respect...well, except mine apparently, from the very word go...)
The 'tightening in or out and by how much' remark appears an obvious childish snipe, so I told you to grow up. If you can't take retaliation, don't fish for it in the first place. As I later pointed out, how many people do you think have fitted a strut brace themselves on their nice sloping drives thinking 'its an easy job, I'll save a few quid labour'???
Damian Harty makes exactly the same reccommendation that I did to fit the strut brace only after stiffening suspension.
As for you final comments, I'll choose to ignore them, although I'm amazed you seem so happy to make personal assumptions about people on a public forum without knowing me. The only reason I'm still posting on this thread is because you seem unable to desist from coming on here and making personal comments about me.
In fact in 2 years and 3353 posts on scoobynet this is the first time I've ever had this kind of situation, so I guess you must bring out the worst in people.
If you want to continue this completely pointless conversation, please PM me directly because I'm certain that everyone else is *really* bored of this by now???
Last edited by Edcase; 14 November 2004 at 09:51 PM.
14 November 2004 | 10:02 PM
#66
I had my own thoughts on the usefulness of strut braces, which didn't change after a conversation with Andy Walsh. He told me that they made little difference to the majority of drivers and then only on the very limit.
If you've been on one of his driver tuition days then you'll understand that he can 'pedal' a motor v well and probably knows what he's talking about when it comes to chassis stuff.
F
If you've been on one of his driver tuition days then you'll understand that he can 'pedal' a motor v well
and probably knows what he's talking about when it comes to chassis stuff.F
14 November 2004 | 11:56 PM
#67
Scooby Regular
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 11,439
Likes: 53
yowsers. 
First of all, the Anti Lift Kit doesnt give you an anti left geometry improvement, it actually induces slighly more lift. What it does do is increase front caster slightly, which increases dynamic camber efectively dialing in more camber as you turn the steering. The increase in caster is quite small though, the bigest change to front end from this is the lack of rearward movement of the lower wishbone when heavy braking and corner entry because the rubber used in the bush is much stiffer, meaning you retain caster during the critical entry phase of cornering with aids stability and camber retention on the outer front wheel.
The bigest improvement you can make to a chassis in terms of rigidity is to improve front left to rear right and front right to rear left torsional strength. The only way to do this is by installing a fully welded roll cage and seam welding the chassis. On a group A shell you also double skin critical areas around the strut towers and front/rear bulkheads, often creating an extra box section rather than just putting the new materials in plate against plate.
The STi carbon strut braces do nothing, they look nice but add no rigidity. The most beneficial bracing is achieved by tying in the lower wishbone locations, as the majority of cornering forces are fed into these points, not into the strut top mounts. You also get these same forces fed into the steering rack trying to push it sideways. This is why the latest MY05 has a new steering rack mount system that utilises 3 mounting points, rather than two. The spec C also has an extra brace section installed accross the lower subframe, tying in the two bottom wishbones.
On a race car you want the chassis as stiff as posible in all planes, so the suspension and tyres are doing all the work. On a road car you want some spring in the chassis, especially corner to corner as this helps you get away with cheap dampers and gives a more complient ride, it gives you better wet traction in particular.
The bigest problem with chassis dymanics isnt in the chassis rigidity these days, They are pretty good already, its in the hub/wheel assembly and lower suspension bushings. The latest MY05 Impreza uses larger hub assemblies with a larger PCD stud pattern. This is to allow larger wheel bearings to be used and larger wheel to hub clamping force for the same torque and number of wheelnuts. With wheel and tyre sizes going so large and generating ever more grip, you now have the problem of wheel bearings not being able to cope with the side loads which brings alterations in geometry and also pad knockoff. The TypeR/RA with the R180 rear diff used larger wheel bearings and hub assembles because of this problem, the MY05 now uses even larger versions of the theme to cope with the extra lateral forces modern tyres are producing.
First of all, the Anti Lift Kit doesnt give you an anti left geometry improvement, it actually induces slighly more lift. What it does do is increase front caster slightly, which increases dynamic camber efectively dialing in more camber as you turn the steering. The increase in caster is quite small though, the bigest change to front end from this is the lack of rearward movement of the lower wishbone when heavy braking and corner entry because the rubber used in the bush is much stiffer, meaning you retain caster during the critical entry phase of cornering with aids stability and camber retention on the outer front wheel.
The bigest improvement you can make to a chassis in terms of rigidity is to improve front left to rear right and front right to rear left torsional strength. The only way to do this is by installing a fully welded roll cage and seam welding the chassis. On a group A shell you also double skin critical areas around the strut towers and front/rear bulkheads, often creating an extra box section rather than just putting the new materials in plate against plate.
The STi carbon strut braces do nothing, they look nice but add no rigidity. The most beneficial bracing is achieved by tying in the lower wishbone locations, as the majority of cornering forces are fed into these points, not into the strut top mounts. You also get these same forces fed into the steering rack trying to push it sideways. This is why the latest MY05 has a new steering rack mount system that utilises 3 mounting points, rather than two. The spec C also has an extra brace section installed accross the lower subframe, tying in the two bottom wishbones.
On a race car you want the chassis as stiff as posible in all planes, so the suspension and tyres are doing all the work. On a road car you want some spring in the chassis, especially corner to corner as this helps you get away with cheap dampers and gives a more complient ride, it gives you better wet traction in particular.
The bigest problem with chassis dymanics isnt in the chassis rigidity these days, They are pretty good already, its in the hub/wheel assembly and lower suspension bushings. The latest MY05 Impreza uses larger hub assemblies with a larger PCD stud pattern. This is to allow larger wheel bearings to be used and larger wheel to hub clamping force for the same torque and number of wheelnuts. With wheel and tyre sizes going so large and generating ever more grip, you now have the problem of wheel bearings not being able to cope with the side loads which brings alterations in geometry and also pad knockoff. The TypeR/RA with the R180 rear diff used larger wheel bearings and hub assembles because of this problem, the MY05 now uses even larger versions of the theme to cope with the extra lateral forces modern tyres are producing.
15 November 2004 | 10:17 AM
#68
Scooby Regular
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 759
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From: Life's Ruf
Originally Posted by johnfelstead
yowsers.
First of all, the Anti Lift Kit doesnt give you an anti left geometry improvement, it actually induces slighly more lift. What it does do is increase front caster slightly, which increases dynamic camber efectively dialing in more camber as you turn the steering. The increase in caster is quite small though, the bigest change to front end from this is the lack of rearward movement of the lower wishbone when heavy braking and corner entry because the rubber used in the bush is much stiffer, meaning you retain caster during the critical entry phase of cornering with aids stability and camber retention on the outer front wheel.
The bigest improvement you can make to a chassis in terms of rigidity is to improve front left to rear right and front right to rear left torsional strength. The only way to do this is by installing a fully welded roll cage and seam welding the chassis. On a group A shell you also double skin critical areas around the strut towers and front/rear bulkheads, often creating an extra box section rather than just putting the new materials in plate against plate.
The STi carbon strut braces do nothing, they look nice but add no rigidity. The most beneficial bracing is achieved by tying in the lower wishbone locations, as the majority of cornering forces are fed into these points, not into the strut top mounts. You also get these same forces fed into the steering rack trying to push it sideways. This is why the latest MY05 has a new steering rack mount system that utilises 3 mounting points, rather than two. The spec C also has an extra brace section installed accross the lower subframe, tying in the two bottom wishbones.
On a race car you want the chassis as stiff as posible in all planes, so the suspension and tyres are doing all the work. On a road car you want some spring in the chassis, especially corner to corner as this helps you get away with cheap dampers and gives a more complient ride, it gives you better wet traction in particular.
The bigest problem with chassis dymanics isnt in the chassis rigidity these days, They are pretty good already, its in the hub/wheel assembly and lower suspension bushings. The latest MY05 Impreza uses larger hub assemblies with a larger PCD stud pattern. This is to allow larger wheel bearings to be used and larger wheel to hub clamping force for the same torque and number of wheelnuts. With wheel and tyre sizes going so large and generating ever more grip, you now have the problem of wheel bearings not being able to cope with the side loads which brings alterations in geometry and also pad knockoff. The TypeR/RA with the R180 rear diff used larger wheel bearings and hub assembles because of this problem, the MY05 now uses even larger versions of the theme to cope with the extra lateral forces modern tyres are producing.
First of all, the Anti Lift Kit doesnt give you an anti left geometry improvement, it actually induces slighly more lift. What it does do is increase front caster slightly, which increases dynamic camber efectively dialing in more camber as you turn the steering. The increase in caster is quite small though, the bigest change to front end from this is the lack of rearward movement of the lower wishbone when heavy braking and corner entry because the rubber used in the bush is much stiffer, meaning you retain caster during the critical entry phase of cornering with aids stability and camber retention on the outer front wheel.
The bigest improvement you can make to a chassis in terms of rigidity is to improve front left to rear right and front right to rear left torsional strength. The only way to do this is by installing a fully welded roll cage and seam welding the chassis. On a group A shell you also double skin critical areas around the strut towers and front/rear bulkheads, often creating an extra box section rather than just putting the new materials in plate against plate.
The STi carbon strut braces do nothing, they look nice but add no rigidity. The most beneficial bracing is achieved by tying in the lower wishbone locations, as the majority of cornering forces are fed into these points, not into the strut top mounts. You also get these same forces fed into the steering rack trying to push it sideways. This is why the latest MY05 has a new steering rack mount system that utilises 3 mounting points, rather than two. The spec C also has an extra brace section installed accross the lower subframe, tying in the two bottom wishbones.
On a race car you want the chassis as stiff as posible in all planes, so the suspension and tyres are doing all the work. On a road car you want some spring in the chassis, especially corner to corner as this helps you get away with cheap dampers and gives a more complient ride, it gives you better wet traction in particular.
The bigest problem with chassis dymanics isnt in the chassis rigidity these days, They are pretty good already, its in the hub/wheel assembly and lower suspension bushings. The latest MY05 Impreza uses larger hub assemblies with a larger PCD stud pattern. This is to allow larger wheel bearings to be used and larger wheel to hub clamping force for the same torque and number of wheelnuts. With wheel and tyre sizes going so large and generating ever more grip, you now have the problem of wheel bearings not being able to cope with the side loads which brings alterations in geometry and also pad knockoff. The TypeR/RA with the R180 rear diff used larger wheel bearings and hub assembles because of this problem, the MY05 now uses even larger versions of the theme to cope with the extra lateral forces modern tyres are producing.
onder2:
15 November 2004 | 01:23 PM
#69
Scooby Regular
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 844
Likes: 0
From: leicester
so is it worth attempting to improve an 04 sti, both suspension and all points stated above, as well as either 333 or PPP. Or go out, sell the 04 and pick up an 05 and just improve the power on it?
Will the 05 shape be around for a while as the chasis is now getting on as the blob and bug eye are the same car!
cheers,
Andy
Will the 05 shape be around for a while as the chasis is now getting on as the blob and bug eye are the same car!
cheers,
Andy
16 November 2004 | 01:40 PM
#70
Edcase: It seems you are labouring under a major misconsception.
Here is what you said:
My question to you was AND STILL IS a genuine enquiry.
I cannot understand why you think it was a childish remark or question which led you to react in an unsatisfactory manner.
I am also struggling to understand how anybody can attribute heavier steering to a strut brace, hence my interest in your answer.
Here is what you said:
Quote:
Anybody who says the stut braces don't make a difference, either bought the wrong strut brace, or haven't tightened it properly. Even on the new cars it makes a huge difference
Anybody who says the stut braces don't make a difference, either bought the wrong strut brace, or haven't tightened it properly. Even on the new cars it makes a huge difference
Tightened in or out and how much because you are altering the geometry as Sprint Chief has indicated?
The 'tightening in or out and by how much' remark appears an obvious childish snipe, so I told you to grow up.
plus the rear one makes a good anchor point for loose rear loads 
29 November 2004 | 11:21 AM
#76
Scooby Newbie
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
I read with amusement, interest and dismay the ongoing upper strut brace story for the new age cars and would like to suggest a solution to the debate.
Fit a strain gauge device between the top of the front struts (preferably a standard car) it may be possible to bond a gauge on to an existing bar or use a custom set-up. Connect to a simple monitoring device; we are looking for changes not exact amounts. Then drive the car in a straight line and turn left and right to suddenly transfer the cars weight to maximum effect. Make a note of the changes, if any.
Next drive in a straight-line over speed bumps, forcing upward loading on the struts. Make a note of any readings.
If stresses are seen, however small you must therefore conclude that an upper strut brace must do something to the cars balance. How the driver interprets this change will of course vary from personality to personality.
Looking at the structure involved it’s my guess at this point that the upper brace stops flex during upward loading of the strut and the lower brace during cornering.
Perhaps these tests have already been carried out by brace manufactures, I would hope so as they would need to calculate the geometry and material types correctly for any damping effect to work.
Unfortunately I am tied up with other projects at the moment so can not get onto this straight away, but if someone what’s to take to lead I can help as best I can.
Last edited by phelpo; 29 November 2004 at 11:24 AM.
how do you fit the rear strut on 2005 wrx?
09 July 2005 | 09:16 PM
#78
Scooby Regular
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,282
Likes: 0
From: Birmingham
Originally Posted by BD2005
how do you fit the rear strut on 2005 wrx?
bought one dont have a clue how to get to the strut mounts, your help is always the best.
cheers pees
bought one dont have a clue how to get to the strut mounts, your help is always the best.
cheers pees
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