Flatcapdriver

Haha. Seriously, when I tried to use the bullet points it kept refusing to accept my post when I hit submit - this happened six or seven times? I rebooted my PC thinking the line was bunged up and ended up pasting it into Word and then I get this rubbish? What am I doing wrong?

Flatcapdriver

That being the case, why do Spain and France suffer from illegal immigration when both countries have well developed ID card systems?

imi

some very good points on this thread.

Has such a scheme been implemented in other countries (meaning with Biometric scans)?

If this sort of ID was going to stop Asylum seekers
Seek out benefit fraudsters
Stop petty crime

Then I can see the point. But the point of it being optional kind of defies the purpose.

It wont stop terrorism - that is simply a stupid expectation. organised criminals have ways around such documents.

I am still not sure exactly how the ID cards are bad for our freedom and right?

Dont I already have a driving license? What about my NI card? What about my credit rating on the system? What about my record on the insurance database? What about my health record with the NHS and my private healthcare? What about my store cards? what about the ISP monitoring our internet activity? what about the organisations having the ability to record our telephone calls?

They already have more than enough info on us. If they are bringing it all together in a single orderly database to make it more effective, then what is wrong with that.

TelBoy

You can't stop people coming in altogether, obviously, but it might go some way to stopping the UK being seen as the world's soft touch. The sooner the better.

Flatcapdriver

Telboy, without going into the whole immigration issue and let's be clear that we do need immigrants who will adapt and contribute to our society, I fail to see how ID cards will stop illegal immigrants from entering the UK. What's more, the proponents of the ID card system have failed to offer any evidence to support these claims and indeed if you take Spain as an example there is a massive black economy that sustains illegal immigrants from Africa (Morroco as an example) and this is a country with mandatory ID cards.

If identification is needed then all the Government has to do is introduce legislation whereby Passports have to be carried at all times but this is about the Government having biometric information on all its law abiding citizens. The ones who don't want to be part of it will simply ignore it and in my opinion this will have the effect of creating an even larger black economy in the UK which isn't really part of our existing culture as it drives the illegal element underground.

ajm

The only way to lose the soft touch stigma is to turn applications around faster, start packing more of them on the next plane back from whence they came, stop paying them for their every whim and stop releasing them into the populous and giving them opportunities to abscond!

Barcoding the population of the UK won't have any bearing on that!

TelBoy

I hear what you're both saying, but with the right implementation, rather than the namby pamby don't-upset-anyone approach we're likely to see, it has the ability to be a very useful tool, in my opinion. Whether it's beyond being defrauded i've no information, but it would be a shame if they made them possible to scam with all the technology available today.

Flatcapdriver

Telboy, the initial trialling of the system will be done on a voluntary basis but the Government is trying to con us into believing that eventually the carrying of ID cards will also be voluntary. Do you really believe that? I don't and it will be a simple matter for the Government of the day to introduce mandatory ID card carrying via some form of legislation.

Apart from the fact that there is no evidence to support the claims of this Government that ID cards will reduce crime and illegal immigration just think about why they want to introduce this system. Simply put, the administration and revenue generated by this system will be immense providing not only thousands of jobs but also offsetting Government spending because ID cards will subsidise (just as the Lotto does) any gaps where the Government has failed - ask yourself why the Tories are in the main supporting this system.

Secondly, the sheer volume of information that the Government will have on the (in the main) law abiding part of the population is so open to abuse by Government agencies in the future it's mind boggling - that cartoon Brendan posted is a lot closer to the mark than you think. It really is Big Brother coming home to roost.

TelBoy

The thing is, as one of many citizens who have nothing to hide, and who understand that most of the information on these cards is readily available elsewhere in any case, i just don't have a reason to oppose them.

Of course, if after they're introduced i'm adversely affected by a burgeoning black economy or whatever, then yes i might change my mind. But if it stops just ONE ****** claiming for something they're not entitled to, or identifies just ONE oik we can deport on the next plane back, i'll remain in favour of the proposals.

Flatcapdriver

So £4 billion later, you'll be happy if it saves the economy £1000.00?

I've made the figures up but you take my point? Anyway, as I've already said I don't believe it's about immigration, fraud or preventing criminal activities.

warrenm2

cost to implent - £1bn, amount saved through clamp down on benefit cheats -£50m

Good ol Labour

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12...l_2nd_reading/

TelBoy

These numbers are assumptions though - no Government in their right mind would advocate something like that if it was *such* a money loser, i refuse to believe it.

unclebuck

Can't believe the Tories are backing the introduction of these ID cards

Yet another error of judgement.....

UB

warrenm2

dont let the facts stand in the way of your arguement you mean?

"in their right mind" - now that was just deliberately inflammatory wasnt it?!

unclebuck

New Labour aren't doing it to raise money. There are plenty of other ways to do that. They are doing it as part of a system of control over the lives of all citizens the in this country - except the illegals and other criminals of course.

warrenm2

I hear ya!

TelBoy

Call me cynical, but NO government spends a billski just to put card in the pockets of its citizens. C'mon, either you lot are far too trusting or wet behind the ears!! They have a VERY good idea of what financial benefits they're likely to reap. Don't let naivety get in the way of a good story!!

TelBoy

I just don't get this angle though. I won't feel "controlled" by it, any more than i do when i have to show a passport to get in/out of the country, my driving licence for a five day wonder and so on. Aren't we all being a little bit alarmist??

InvisibleMan

we'll have id cards in full use in 2016 (according to BladeRunner & im sure thats where they got the idea from) so we know theyll come into force & theyve got afew years to get it right yet...

ajm

But you won't be fined for leaving your house without your passport or your driving licence! If you get stopped in the street by the police they have no right to know who you are unless they have a valid reason to think you may be wanted for a crime or in the process of comitting one!

The only way that cards will make a difference in finding wanted criminals or absconded immigrants is indiscriminate stopping in the street. In otherwords by chance. Therefore the moment ID cards are made complulsory to carry police will be stopping people indiscriminantly in the street under the guise of "protecting us by rooting out the criminals". The real reason will be to catch and fine you if you have left your card at home!

I don't want to have to carry around a piece of plastic with all my personal details on it. I don't want to be forced to carry anything at all! I'm not a beast of burden or a lost pet and if I want to leave my house with nothing in my pockets then I damn well will!

What will happen when we lose our cards? Will we have to walk around with a sign around our necks "New card in post"? You get done for failing to produce a card, then get dragged down to the local nick for a retinal scan and a DNA test.

How does that make us feel safer?

TelBoy

What happens in countries where these things already operate? Did they have the same concerns beforehand? I assume so?

the moose

Of course, the fact that benefits are usually overpaid by between 5-12% *may* have something to do with it. People lie about all sorts of things, and if you needed to produce an ID card which proves not only who you are, but your background details as well, there's a good chance that benefit fraud would be cut substantially - where the £50m mentioned above comes from I don't know, but it would be WAY more than that.

SJ_Skyline

Where's that old codger lewis when you want a counter arguement?

InvisibleMan

yeah when they indiscriminately stop those who they think are criminals esp minorities, black/asian but are clean they are going to feel discriminated against & **** will hit the fan...

warrenm2

It came up in a parliamentary question by Peter Lilley, you can check Hansard if you want the date.

whatever you say....

TelBoy

C'mon, Warren, there's a gulf between official answers and hidden agendas, we ALL know THAT!!

warrenm2

Like Spain for example - they had the madrid bombings, and guess what, the terrorists had fake ID! F**k me, Im gonna sign up now and be SOOOO much safer


F%$$**g B******ks S#!t w@**r$

Brendan Hughes

Basically, it's taking advantage of the post-9/11 world of threat and security, with a little help from an absolute majority in Parliament. There were IRA bombings on mainland UK for 20 years but no government would manage to push through an ID scheme about making you feel safe, as we considered liberty more important than safety and "don't let the terrorists win". But killing 3000 in New York, 200 each in Madrid and Bali has changed the threat. Now they have the power and the opportunity, they would be fools not to. And the opposition are voting for it as they also see the benefits of it for when they get into power.

It's taking the opportunity to increase the level of central record-keeping and knowledge of the populace on a very rare occasion. They probably don't even know themselves what they'll do with the power. But they'd be foolish to refuse it when given it - it's something to keep and save for later.

Personally I find the comments about making money from the fines are quite piddling, much as I find the government's comments about it being voluntary are amazingly cynical. It's a long-term softening-up exercise - once you're used to the voluntary ones, we make them mandatory. Once you're used to mandatory possession at home, we make it mandatory to carry in the street. Otherwise, as I pointed out earlier, it's a waste of 4 billion. But they won't get mandatory cards in the street voted through immediately, so they do it the slow way.

I live in Portugal, and carry an ID card. So what? It's pretty useless. As said many times before, it hasn't stopped the Madrid bombings, or Spanish or French illegal immigration. That's just crap to sell it to the stupid populace, pandering to their Sun-reading fears. I think the real truth is, they don't know what they want it for. But if they get it now, they are at leisure to decide later.

warrenm2

telboy Im confused now what point of view you hold..?

Flatcapdriver

We tried it in Australia nearly twenty years ago and the public opposition was so massive that eventually the whole project was shelved. Other countries that have implemented ID cards have generally done so in times of war (as was the case in the UK) but the system wasn't revoked at the end of hostilities. Quite simply, no common law country has ever tried to implement an ID card system in peace time.