TelBoy

I agree, the anti-terrorist angle is bollox - they'll get around almost ANY system if they really want to, but it doesn't make it any easier for them, does it? Still not a reason NOT to carry a card, in my opinion.

TelBoy

That i'm in favour of carrying a card because i have no reason to oppose it, and i think it will help weed out some undesirable elements, but that there is an undisclosed financial incentive for implementing the scheme over and above the "official" hoped-for benefits. In fact, no strong view; i don't think it will affect me much one way or the other if i have one or not.

Flatcapdriver

Huh? A suspect's identity has never been an issue when prosecuting individuals for a crime. Just because I've got an ID card doesn't mean I can't carry out a terrorist atrocity.

Telboy. If you're in favour of ID cards, perhaps you could give us some solid evidence as to how they are going to make our society a better place?

ajm

Brendan,

I agree with your perception of the agenda to make them compulsory to carry, however surely the government are going to have to answer the question by actively being seen to use the cards to reduce crime and terrorism as this is their only selling point afterall?

The only way I can see that cards will make a difference in this respect is if police are given powers to indiscriminately stop and identify people in the street. You will fall into one of three categories:-

1) You will have your card like a good little drone and not be wanted for anything - no further action
2) You will be wanted for something and have your card - arrested
3) You will not have your card - at this point it doesn't matter whether you are wanted or not because you will be dragged back to the station to be indentified

whatever the outcome of number 3) you will be fined for not having a card.

Now I know you may see all this as "piddly" relative to the insidious "unknown agenda" you speak of, but to my mind this is pleanty to worry about in the meantime!

TelBoy

All i'm saying is that it's potentially another obstacle for a would-be terrorist to overcome - i don't for one minute expect it to make any diference to the hardline fanatics. Enhanced safety isn't really one of the main benefits i'd personally feel from having an ID card.

the moose

I work in this area, and have some specific knowledge. As I say, councils and central government overspend by between 5% and 12% on benefits, mainly because it takes a long time to process claims, and also because people appeal everything anyway, so it's considered acceptable to pay more but reduce the number of appeals (which ends up costing the same becuase of the time costs of running the appeal).

If (and it's a big if) ID cards can help to reduce this cost, it's a massive gain, and way more than £50m.

Oh, and Peter Lilley left office in 1996 or 1997, so I guess things may have moved on a tad since then.

A final thing. A lot is made of the libertarian argument that many people would be made criminals of they fail to carry their ID card, or fail to notify a change of address etc. But we've already got that with a driving licence - and I've never heard of anyone actually being charged solely due to failure to notify their new address. I'm sure the same would apply if said cards were introduced.

warrenm2

ok Telboy lets get a few things straight

1)reason to implement - prevent benefit fraud - NOPE cost to implent - £1bn, amount saved through clamp down on benefit cheats -£50m
2)reason to implement - to prevent terrorism - NOPE Spain has ID cards, they have Madrid bombings and years of ETA bombings

This is a government who....
3) Want to remove the right to trial by jury - currently defeated
4) Want to remove the right to trial if imprisoned - Oops they've already done that http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4110475.stm Bye bye Magna carta - nice knowing you
5) Remove themselves from human rights legislation to pass the above
6) Have a Home Secetary who gave himself the right to declare a state of emergency, which then gives the aforementined Home Secetary legal Carte Blanche to ignore/overturn ANY - read that again, ANY law he pleases.
7) Use anti teror laws appropriately - NOPE http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12...fairford_kite/

I dont feel f****g safe at all mate....

editted to add
8) Freedom of information - NOT IN MY GOVERNMENT! http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12..._email_policy/ add to "failed to recall" critical - some might read damning, evidence to Budd, the spin (euphamism for lies not yet discovered) of the whole Dr. Kelly/ Butler enquiry affair - GOD it makes me want to puke!

ajm

It's a huge if. Are we really paying benefits to people who we have no way of verifying who they are? If we can't even get their name right on a benefit application then how do we hope to get their name right on an ID card?


But if the information on the cards is allowed to get out of date then they become useless. If they are kept up to date then there is the issue of liberties. Neither option is acceptable in my view.

warrenm2

Quote:

Originally Posted by the moose

I work in this area, and have some specific knowledge. As I say, councils and central government overspend by between 5% and 12% on benefits,

Official source pls, its coming across as a pub fact...

Quote:

Originally Posted by the moose

Oh, and Peter Lilley left office in 1996 or 1997, so I guess things may have moved on a tad since then.

wtf are you talking about! Hes MP for Hitchin & Harpenden?!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by the moose

I work in this area

work harder!

Quote:

Originally Posted by the moose

I'm sure the same would apply if said cards
were introduced.

I'm afraid Im not about TO BET MY LIBERTY ON YOUR GUESS

SJ_Skyline

Love that article from the register:

"The notion that peace demonstrators had arrived at a demo tooled-up "

warrenm2

cudgels and swords mate ..................... or NOT

Flatcapdriver

Moose. The are several reasons the Police don't press charges against individuals who don't update their licence with new address information, not least of which is the ill feeling this would cause with the generally law abiding public. It's not a requirement to carry your licence around with you which if the ID cards system comes into being will have to be a central part of the system, otherwise it will fail to work.

Assuming it becomes mandatory to carry the ID card with you at all times, then the Police will have to be issued with powers to interrogate, inspect and prosecute individuals who fail to have the card on their person. This will lead to a massive erosion in the relationship between the general public and the Police which was the basis for the wartime ID cards being abolished in this country nearly fifty years ago. In the UK, the Police enjoy a relationship with the public which is not reflected in many other developed nations. Just ask the average Spaniard, Frenchman or Australian for their view of their respective Police forces and it won't be as positive as it is in the UK.

Freak

Vegescoob

Can some of you in favour of ID cards please use your imaginations. Many of you are computer savy. You know how quickly technology has advanced. Give it 10 years and I predict the ID card will store so much about you that, for instance, your GP will decide you are overweight say and your card will then ban you from buying certain food.
Want a McD. walk in have to put your card in the reader. "Sorry sir you can't buy". This could control every aspect of your life.
Wake up!

unclebuck

There is no 'terrorist threat' and there are no 'tenticles of evil'. It's an invention by those in power to create a climate of fear and use this as justification to introduce ID cards and other forms of resriction on personal freedom.

imi

Cant see anything wrong with the end of McD

Vegescoob

It's just an example. Could be units of alcohol, smoking, with someone other than your "official registered partner", having to use public transport,not doing your 20 mins exercise each day. Etc ad nauseum
Just wake up. The political system is failing, those who profit from it see this as a way to shore it up.

imi

good point vege.....

nanny state...