Flatcapdriver

So, faced with barbaric acts we become barbarians ourselves? As for flippancy, that seems the standard cop out around here when challenged about labelling others with opposing views.

A lot of contributors in this thread would do well to read John's post several times and think long and hard about what he's saying, particularly the last paragraph.

gsm1

And where on this thread has anyone said those held at Guantanamo 'are pure as the driven snow'? Typical Tiggers' response. Are you on the CIA payroll?

tiggers

I notice you don't dispute the warmongering fools part - well *you* couldn't could you?

gsm1

Well, I never said they were warmongering fools but that everything they said was not to be believed. That was in response to a previous post claiming the guilt of these four guys was undeniable just because the Americans said so. Just look at the Hemant Lakhani case - what a victory against terrorism that arrest was!

Now, where in this thread does it say those at Guantanamo 'are pure as the driven snow'?

tiggers

Cop out? The comment was flippant and I apologised for it being so - what else would you like me to do? There was more to my post than that anyway.

As for being barabric I agree the Guantanamo situation is unpalatable for sure, but just hoping nothing like 9/11 will ever happen again is equally unpalatable (to me at least). As I said I don't know the answer, but doing nothing can surely not be a good thing.

John's post, partiularly the last paragraph, is excellent. The real problem with the 'war on terror' is that no one really knows who the enemy is let alone where they are which makes the war just about unwinnable (sp?) at the moment.

tiggers.

tiggers

Presumably you have read my exchanges with Flatcapdriver!

Flatcapdriver

Sorry, my bad. I missed it with my befuddled brain.

Petem95

Theres always one - unable to discuss issues regarding race without someone shouting "racist"!!

Some of the Guantanamo captives are white muslim converts who were captured in Iraq - I dont think anyone is suggesting these should be looked at any differently to the 4 non-white captives who were returned to the UK recently.

Regarding the holocaust, I think its disgracefull that Muslim leaders are refusing to attend this weeks Holocaust commemoration.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle...toryID=7425235

tiggers

No worries

I must say with all the borderline racist comments we had on here earlier it seems ironic we should be dissecting my flippancy to such a level. Got to love Scoobynet sometimes!

gsm1

Yes, but it wasn't specific to that point. And as for tongue-in-cheek/ flippant etc....hmmm.

I don't believe that was what he meant although you have nicely spun it (now I know why Alistair Campbell got kicked out, you must have taken over his job ). The war on terror will never end and it certainly never started after 9/11.

Flatcapdriver

To be frank, I avoid indulging people too much who hold such ill informed opinions so I was surprised that you waded in with your comments, hence the attention it received. Although I disagree with many of your opinions you are more objective than most on here.

Leslie

Tiggers

It is a basic tenet of justice that a prisoner cannot be held unless he has been proved to be guilty or there is sufficient evidence to charge him. Whatever you say you cannot deny that one.

If Governments can hold people for their own reasons such as in Guantanamo or for that matter in Belmarsh without having any kind of a case against them then we are on that slippery slope that johnfelstead described so well.

However you regard the actions of the present governments who are involved, you cannot forecast what might happen in the future. Remember what happened to those who did not agree with the former Soviet government when they were declared insane and locked away in an asylum for the rest of their natural! Or even those poor people who were fed to the boilers in the Kremlin, while still alive! Its not that big a step believe me.

No one has declared the prisoners on Guantanamo as "pure as the driven snow". The real truth is that we just don't know and nothing has been proved. They have as much right to justice as anyone else. Their present treatment is beyond the pale. Prove it or release them.

Les

tiggers

My comment is not a translation of his paragraph, but merely an observation arising from reading his text. Spun enough for you

tiggers

No worries, I think, flippancy aside, that my posts on this subject are still relatively objective. My real problem is I genuinely don't know what the answer is one way or the other.

tiggers.

MarfGTti

I cannot beleive the blinkered media led view of some people on here. It amazes me so many can just sit back and let this media BS filter into their brains as fact.

tiggers

OK Les, let's play devil's advocate here.

Firstly I agree in principle with everything you say, but what if we can't prove it - what if we know them to be terrorists, but cannot find enough evidence to convict them. By rights we have to release them as we can't predict the future, but what then happens if one of them does commit an atrocity.

Being simplistic the dilemma is not one I'd like to be in and not one I'm sure there is a palatable solution for.

Regards,

tiggers.

MarfGTti

PeteM, would Jewish religous leaders attend a Similar Muslim occasion? Doubtful.

People seem to forget about the Russians murdered by the Germans during WWII, 4-5 times as many Russians as Jews died, do we hear about it? Nup.

Flatcapdriver

Tiggers. The law is the law and as these detainees have been held illegally by the US Government (and it appears similar situations exist in the UK) they have a right to be processed within the laws of that system. Governments are bound by the laws of the land as well as the average citizen and you cant' simply ingnore the laws and statutes just because it suits you.

Its not perfect and criminals are released and do go on to offend but that is their right within the justice system and we have to live with it. The alternative is a totalitarian state where the Government can rule as it sees fit and control the population as it sees fit. You can imagine the outcry if that were to happen given the propensity for people to blame the current Government for all their ills.

SJ_Skyline

THE USSR IN THE 1930s:

1932-33: Mass starvation in Ukraine; 10 million die
1933-34: First purges of Communist Party; 1 million killed by secret police
1936: Mass purge of Old Bolsheviks; 10 million in GULAG; 1 million executed
1937: Stalin order purge of Army; thousands of officers killed
1939: Stalin signs Neutrality Pact with German government
1941-1945: 26 million Russians killed in WW2
1948: A new purge: 1 million dead; 10 million in GULAG

unclebuck

2005 - New Labour are re-elected in the UK and the Third Term begins.

555wrx

Strikes me as funny. We have that terrorist geezer with the hook hands, which we lavish taxpayers money on, who WE SHOULD deport, and then we go and spend a small fortune on an RAF transport plane to pick up another four suspected criminals and bring them back here.
Am I missing the point, or is this country now the 'United Kingdom of all things criminal'?

Flatcapdriver

You're either missing the point or haven't bothered to read this thread in it's entirety.

tiggers

Well given my devil's advocate scenario can you imagine the outcry if one of those released did commit a 9/11 style atrocity. Like I say in principle I agree with you and they should be released or charged and tried, but I'm damn glad I don't have to make that decision.

tiggers.

AsifScoob

Thank God this threads become a bit more sensible, after some complete drivel being posted by some on the first couple of pages!

Is it not stark staringly obvious that if the US had anything, even remotely ANYTHING at all on these guys these would have kept them locked up?

Put it this way, even the people they feel they have something on (the other few hundred still locked up in Cuba) are not going on trial in the near future - why is that?

If you ask me, most of those guys will never see the (free) light of day again, I am sure that there are some guilty there, but I will defintely bet that there are more innocents there too.

Absolute disgrace!

Asif

Dr Hu

Who else heard on the news last night that Corrinne Redgrave wants to pay these 4 'terrorists' **compensation**.....FFS

HElllloooo - so we are PAYING the ******* to be terrorists now

you may not like it, but no smoke without fire in my view.... they were picked up for a reason - which I suspect will NEVER be known

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

I havent read the whole thread but am shocked at what I have read.

These UK citizens have been held imprisoned, tortured, treated inhumanley and not had any Human Rights protection whatsoever. They have never seen/met lawyers/solicitors. It has not been proved (nor attempted to be proven) that these men are guilty. How are we labelling them as terrorists?

They are UK citizens just like you and I, possibly just caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time, who knows. We cannot speculate for sure and neither can anybody else without a full trial. If there is no evidence for a trial then so be it...we cant just lock up everyone 'suspected' of a crime, without a trial or legal representation.


We have the our UK nationals back from the savage hands of the Bush Regime and we can now deal with our own people according to our legal system.

I really do wonder where the values of many of our fellow citizens has gone when I read threads like these.

Bob

555wrx

I have read all of this thread, and unlike alot of the racist/bigoted jibes, I was merely making a point. Our government thinks nothing of throwing taxpayers money at criminals.
Wether or not the Guantanamo 4 are guilty, was it worth the expense of flying an RAF transport aircraft, plus aircrew, there and back to pick them up? Could a smaller private jet not been have used?
Betterstill, the US where responsible for the internment of UK citizens, so maybe they should have arranged for their return to the UK.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

they are not 'criminals' in this country until they are tried and found guilty.

unclebuck

They are getting rock star treatment that's for sure. And they *will* get lottery winning sized payouts. Not to mention all the royalties for books, newspaper articles and TV apprearances. There will no doubt be streets and community centres named after them and they will be cannonised as heroes.

As people have said I'm sure they weren't randomly plucked from the streets for no reason.

It's a f**ked up world for sure.....

johnfelstead

It's absolutely incredible how people in this country dont understand how important the basic premiss of inocent until proven guilty is, we are in serious trouble based on the responses in this thread. Have people really become so conditioned in the last few years that abandoning this principle is a non issue to them?

Had i been held prisoner, torturned and deprived of my basic human rights for years i too would be seeking compensation Dr Hu, it is not an OK thing to do.