Guantanamo "britains" return home....
#61
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Originally Posted by tiggers
My reference to 9/11 is more to point out that the rulebook was kind of rewritten that day - the world changed and I'm not sure we know quite by how much yet.
A lot of contributors in this thread would do well to read John's post several times and think long and hard about what he's saying, particularly the last paragraph.
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Although the SN opinion generally seems to be how all those held at Guantanamo are as pure as the driven snow and the Americans are a nasty bunch of warmongering fools I think that the reality is a rather more common problem.
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Originally Posted by gsm1
And where on this thread has anyone said those held at Guantanamo 'are pure as the driven snow'? Typical Tiggers' response. Are you on the CIA payroll?
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Originally Posted by tiggers
I notice you don't dispute the warmongering fools part - well *you* couldn't could you?
Now, where in this thread does it say those at Guantanamo 'are pure as the driven snow'?
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Originally Posted by Flatcapdriver
So, faced with barbaric acts we become barbarians ourselves? As for flippancy, that seems the standard cop out around here when challenged about labelling others with opposing views.
A lot of contributors in this thread would do well to read John's post several times and think long and hard about what he's saying, particularly the last paragraph.
A lot of contributors in this thread would do well to read John's post several times and think long and hard about what he's saying, particularly the last paragraph.
As for being barabric I agree the Guantanamo situation is unpalatable for sure, but just hoping nothing like 9/11 will ever happen again is equally unpalatable (to me at least). As I said I don't know the answer, but doing nothing can surely not be a good thing.
John's post, partiularly the last paragraph, is excellent. The real problem with the 'war on terror' is that no one really knows who the enemy is let alone where they are which makes the war just about unwinnable (sp?) at the moment.
tiggers.
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Originally Posted by gsm1
Now, where in this thread does it say those at Guantanamo 'are pure as the driven snow'?
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Originally Posted by tiggers
Cop out? The comment was flippant and I apologised for it being so - what else would you like me to do? There was more to my post than that anyway.
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Originally Posted by johnfelstead
It's incredibly sad to see racism showing it's ugly face this day and age, it's not that long ago we were learning the lessons of the Holocaust, something that took root because a racist stereotype was allowed to be turned into generic hate.
Some of the Guantanamo captives are white muslim converts who were captured in Iraq - I dont think anyone is suggesting these should be looked at any differently to the 4 non-white captives who were returned to the UK recently.
Originally Posted by johnfelstead
It's incredibly sad to see racism showing it's ugly face this day and age, it's not that long ago we were learning the lessons of the Holocaust, something that took root because a racist stereotype was allowed to be turned into generic hate.
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle...toryID=7425235
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Originally Posted by Flatcapdriver
Sorry, my bad. I missed it with my befuddled brain.
I must say with all the borderline racist comments we had on here earlier it seems ironic we should be dissecting my flippancy to such a level. Got to love Scoobynet sometimes!
Last edited by tiggers; 26 January 2005 at 11:09 AM.
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Originally Posted by tiggers
Presumably you have read my exchanges with Flatcapdriver!
John's post, partiularly the last paragraph, is excellent. The real problem with the 'war on terror' is that no one really knows who the enemy is let alone where they are which makes the war just about unwinnable (sp?) at the moment.
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Originally Posted by tiggers
No worries
I must say with all the borderline racist comments we had on here earlier it seems ironic we should be dissecting my flippancy to such a level. Got to love Scoobynet sometimes!
I must say with all the borderline racist comments we had on here earlier it seems ironic we should be dissecting my flippancy to such a level. Got to love Scoobynet sometimes!
#72
Tiggers
It is a basic tenet of justice that a prisoner cannot be held unless he has been proved to be guilty or there is sufficient evidence to charge him. Whatever you say you cannot deny that one.
If Governments can hold people for their own reasons such as in Guantanamo or for that matter in Belmarsh without having any kind of a case against them then we are on that slippery slope that johnfelstead described so well.
However you regard the actions of the present governments who are involved, you cannot forecast what might happen in the future. Remember what happened to those who did not agree with the former Soviet government when they were declared insane and locked away in an asylum for the rest of their natural! Or even those poor people who were fed to the boilers in the Kremlin, while still alive! Its not that big a step believe me.
No one has declared the prisoners on Guantanamo as "pure as the driven snow". The real truth is that we just don't know and nothing has been proved. They have as much right to justice as anyone else. Their present treatment is beyond the pale. Prove it or release them.
Les
It is a basic tenet of justice that a prisoner cannot be held unless he has been proved to be guilty or there is sufficient evidence to charge him. Whatever you say you cannot deny that one.
If Governments can hold people for their own reasons such as in Guantanamo or for that matter in Belmarsh without having any kind of a case against them then we are on that slippery slope that johnfelstead described so well.
However you regard the actions of the present governments who are involved, you cannot forecast what might happen in the future. Remember what happened to those who did not agree with the former Soviet government when they were declared insane and locked away in an asylum for the rest of their natural! Or even those poor people who were fed to the boilers in the Kremlin, while still alive! Its not that big a step believe me.
No one has declared the prisoners on Guantanamo as "pure as the driven snow". The real truth is that we just don't know and nothing has been proved. They have as much right to justice as anyone else. Their present treatment is beyond the pale. Prove it or release them.
Les
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Originally Posted by gsm1
I don't believe that was what he meant although you have nicely spun it (now I know why Alistair Campbell got kicked out, you must have taken over his job ). The war on terror will never end and it certainly never started after 9/11.
Last edited by tiggers; 26 January 2005 at 11:58 AM.
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Originally Posted by Flatcapdriver
To be frank, I avoid indulging people too much who hold such ill informed opinions so I was surprised that you waded in with your comments, hence the attention it received. Although I disagree with many of your opinions you are more objective than most on here.
tiggers.
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I cannot beleive the blinkered media led view of some people on here. It amazes me so many can just sit back and let this media BS filter into their brains as fact.
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Originally Posted by Leslie
Tiggers
It is a basic tenet of justice that a prisoner cannot be held unless he has been proved to be guilty or there is sufficient evidence to charge him. Whatever you say you cannot deny that one.
If Governments can hold people for their own reasons such as in Guantanamo or for that matter in Belmarsh without having any kind of a case against them then we are on that slippery slope that johnfelstead described so well.
However you regard the actions of the present governments who are involved, you cannot forecast what might happen in the future. Remember what happened to those who did not agree with the former Soviet government when they were declared insane and locked away in an asylum for the rest of their natural! Or even those poor people who were fed to the boilers in the Kremlin, while still alive! Its not that big a step believe me.
No one has declared the prisoners on Guantanamo as "pure as the driven snow". The real truth is that we just don't know and nothing has been proved. They have as much right to justice as anyone else. Their present treatment is beyond the pale. Prove it or release them.
Les
It is a basic tenet of justice that a prisoner cannot be held unless he has been proved to be guilty or there is sufficient evidence to charge him. Whatever you say you cannot deny that one.
If Governments can hold people for their own reasons such as in Guantanamo or for that matter in Belmarsh without having any kind of a case against them then we are on that slippery slope that johnfelstead described so well.
However you regard the actions of the present governments who are involved, you cannot forecast what might happen in the future. Remember what happened to those who did not agree with the former Soviet government when they were declared insane and locked away in an asylum for the rest of their natural! Or even those poor people who were fed to the boilers in the Kremlin, while still alive! Its not that big a step believe me.
No one has declared the prisoners on Guantanamo as "pure as the driven snow". The real truth is that we just don't know and nothing has been proved. They have as much right to justice as anyone else. Their present treatment is beyond the pale. Prove it or release them.
Les
Firstly I agree in principle with everything you say, but what if we can't prove it - what if we know them to be terrorists, but cannot find enough evidence to convict them. By rights we have to release them as we can't predict the future, but what then happens if one of them does commit an atrocity.
Being simplistic the dilemma is not one I'd like to be in and not one I'm sure there is a palatable solution for.
Regards,
tiggers.
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PeteM, would Jewish religous leaders attend a Similar Muslim occasion? Doubtful.
People seem to forget about the Russians murdered by the Germans during WWII, 4-5 times as many Russians as Jews died, do we hear about it? Nup.
People seem to forget about the Russians murdered by the Germans during WWII, 4-5 times as many Russians as Jews died, do we hear about it? Nup.
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Originally Posted by tiggers
OK Les, let's play devil's advocate here.
Firstly I agree in principle with everything you say, but what if we can't prove it - what if we know them to be terrorists, but cannot find enough evidence to convict them. By rights we have to release them as we can't predict the future, but what then happens if one of them does commit an atrocity.
Being simplistic the dilemma is not one I'd like to be in and not one I'm sure there is a palatable solution for.
Regards,
tiggers.
Firstly I agree in principle with everything you say, but what if we can't prove it - what if we know them to be terrorists, but cannot find enough evidence to convict them. By rights we have to release them as we can't predict the future, but what then happens if one of them does commit an atrocity.
Being simplistic the dilemma is not one I'd like to be in and not one I'm sure there is a palatable solution for.
Regards,
tiggers.
Its not perfect and criminals are released and do go on to offend but that is their right within the justice system and we have to live with it. The alternative is a totalitarian state where the Government can rule as it sees fit and control the population as it sees fit. You can imagine the outcry if that were to happen given the propensity for people to blame the current Government for all their ills.
#79
THE USSR IN THE 1930s:
1932-33: Mass starvation in Ukraine; 10 million die
1933-34: First purges of Communist Party; 1 million killed by secret police
1936: Mass purge of Old Bolsheviks; 10 million in GULAG; 1 million executed
1937: Stalin order purge of Army; thousands of officers killed
1939: Stalin signs Neutrality Pact with German government
1941-1945: 26 million Russians killed in WW2
1948: A new purge: 1 million dead; 10 million in GULAG
1932-33: Mass starvation in Ukraine; 10 million die
1933-34: First purges of Communist Party; 1 million killed by secret police
1936: Mass purge of Old Bolsheviks; 10 million in GULAG; 1 million executed
1937: Stalin order purge of Army; thousands of officers killed
1939: Stalin signs Neutrality Pact with German government
1941-1945: 26 million Russians killed in WW2
1948: A new purge: 1 million dead; 10 million in GULAG
#81
Strikes me as funny. We have that terrorist geezer with the hook hands, which we lavish taxpayers money on, who WE SHOULD deport, and then we go and spend a small fortune on an RAF transport plane to pick up another four suspected criminals and bring them back here.
Am I missing the point, or is this country now the 'United Kingdom of all things criminal'?
Am I missing the point, or is this country now the 'United Kingdom of all things criminal'?
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Originally Posted by 555wrx
Am I missing the point, or is this country now the 'United Kingdom of all things criminal'?
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Originally Posted by Flatcapdriver
Tiggers. The law is the law and as these detainees have been held illegally by the US Government (and it appears similar situations exist in the UK) they have a right to be processed within the laws of that system. Governments are bound by the laws of the land as well as the average citizen and you cant' simply ingnore the laws and statutes just because it suits you.
Its not perfect and criminals are released and do go on to offend but that is their right within the justice system and we have to live with it. The alternative is a totalitarian state where the Government can rule as it sees fit and control the population as it sees fit. You can imagine the outcry if that were to happen given the propensity for people to blame the current Government for all their ills.
Its not perfect and criminals are released and do go on to offend but that is their right within the justice system and we have to live with it. The alternative is a totalitarian state where the Government can rule as it sees fit and control the population as it sees fit. You can imagine the outcry if that were to happen given the propensity for people to blame the current Government for all their ills.
tiggers.
#84
Thank God this threads become a bit more sensible, after some complete drivel being posted by some on the first couple of pages!
Is it not stark staringly obvious that if the US had anything, even remotely ANYTHING at all on these guys these would have kept them locked up?
Put it this way, even the people they feel they have something on (the other few hundred still locked up in Cuba) are not going on trial in the near future - why is that?
If you ask me, most of those guys will never see the (free) light of day again, I am sure that there are some guilty there, but I will defintely bet that there are more innocents there too.
Absolute disgrace!
Asif
Is it not stark staringly obvious that if the US had anything, even remotely ANYTHING at all on these guys these would have kept them locked up?
Put it this way, even the people they feel they have something on (the other few hundred still locked up in Cuba) are not going on trial in the near future - why is that?
If you ask me, most of those guys will never see the (free) light of day again, I am sure that there are some guilty there, but I will defintely bet that there are more innocents there too.
Absolute disgrace!
Asif
#85
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Who else heard on the news last night that Corrinne Redgrave wants to pay these 4 'terrorists' **compensation**.....FFS
HElllloooo - so we are PAYING the ******* to be terrorists now
you may not like it, but no smoke without fire in my view.... they were picked up for a reason - which I suspect will NEVER be known
HElllloooo - so we are PAYING the ******* to be terrorists now
you may not like it, but no smoke without fire in my view.... they were picked up for a reason - which I suspect will NEVER be known
#86
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I havent read the whole thread but am shocked at what I have read.
These UK citizens have been held imprisoned, tortured, treated inhumanley and not had any Human Rights protection whatsoever. They have never seen/met lawyers/solicitors. It has not been proved (nor attempted to be proven) that these men are guilty. How are we labelling them as terrorists?
They are UK citizens just like you and I, possibly just caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time, who knows. We cannot speculate for sure and neither can anybody else without a full trial. If there is no evidence for a trial then so be it...we cant just lock up everyone 'suspected' of a crime, without a trial or legal representation.
We have the our UK nationals back from the savage hands of the Bush Regime and we can now deal with our own people according to our legal system.
I really do wonder where the values of many of our fellow citizens has gone when I read threads like these.
Bob
These UK citizens have been held imprisoned, tortured, treated inhumanley and not had any Human Rights protection whatsoever. They have never seen/met lawyers/solicitors. It has not been proved (nor attempted to be proven) that these men are guilty. How are we labelling them as terrorists?
They are UK citizens just like you and I, possibly just caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time, who knows. We cannot speculate for sure and neither can anybody else without a full trial. If there is no evidence for a trial then so be it...we cant just lock up everyone 'suspected' of a crime, without a trial or legal representation.
We have the our UK nationals back from the savage hands of the Bush Regime and we can now deal with our own people according to our legal system.
I really do wonder where the values of many of our fellow citizens has gone when I read threads like these.
Bob
#87
Originally Posted by Flatcapdriver
You're either missing the point or haven't bothered to read this thread in it's entirety.
Wether or not the Guantanamo 4 are guilty, was it worth the expense of flying an RAF transport aircraft, plus aircrew, there and back to pick them up? Could a smaller private jet not been have used?
Betterstill, the US where responsible for the internment of UK citizens, so maybe they should have arranged for their return to the UK.
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They are getting rock star treatment that's for sure. And they *will* get lottery winning sized payouts. Not to mention all the royalties for books, newspaper articles and TV apprearances. There will no doubt be streets and community centres named after them and they will be cannonised as heroes.
As people have said I'm sure they weren't randomly plucked from the streets for no reason.
It's a f**ked up world for sure.....
As people have said I'm sure they weren't randomly plucked from the streets for no reason.
It's a f**ked up world for sure.....
#90
It's absolutely incredible how people in this country dont understand how important the basic premiss of inocent until proven guilty is, we are in serious trouble based on the responses in this thread. Have people really become so conditioned in the last few years that abandoning this principle is a non issue to them?
Had i been held prisoner, torturned and deprived of my basic human rights for years i too would be seeking compensation Dr Hu, it is not an OK thing to do.
Had i been held prisoner, torturned and deprived of my basic human rights for years i too would be seeking compensation Dr Hu, it is not an OK thing to do.