Buckrogers

MM speel bit crap, but found the various clips very interesting.

skiddus_markus

I fell asleep halfway through but if any of what I saw is true then how Bush got reelected is beyond me.In fact how he got elected in the first place is a sham.

I found the black Americans standing up at the beginning to show their disgust at the Florida "rigging" particularly incredible.How can they try and implement/enforce "democracy" on a foreign state when they don't even understand it in their own?

imi

Its called having a front.....surely you knew that this was never their intention. At least the film made that clear....quite a laugh actually...some bits were very interesting.

Bush is such an idiot.....I found the bit where hes aimlessly starting at the childrens book for 7 mins not knowing what to do as his advisors were no where to be seen.......MORON

Brit_in_Japan

I saw Farenheit 911 on the flight back to Japan a few weeks ago. I thought that thought those same Florida members you talk about were making a very real and valid protest about the situation in Florida. Many black people were disenfranchised by their own state state and deliberately and illegally excluded from voting by a company employed by the Republican party to clean up the voting lists. If you don't protest, what stops it happening again?

What I found more shocking is that they couldn't find even one Democratic senator who was prepared to sign up and support them. There must have been some reason that Democratic senators didn't support them, it was frustrating the film didn't cast more light on it.

Tiggs

its so easy to say this after the event...at the time you have no idea what the advisers said to bush so no idea what he was thinking. he has plaenty of ppl able to deal with the imideate issues...its not like he needs to chuck on some boots and an NYFD jacket and get to Wall St is it!

he sits...knowing hes being filmed for a while as he ponders what to do with so little info. If he stoppped everything he did every time a bad report came in he'd prob not get much done.

T

FrenchBoy

We're not talking about "Your dog has had complications at the vets Mr. President".

I think "Terrorists have flown 2 domestic passenger jets into the twin towers" probobly requires something a little more positive than 10 minutes of quiet reflection.

I know there was a fair amount of manipulation on Moore's part of how this was presented, but it's hard to deny the look of vacuous bewilderment on his face. This is supposed to be the most powerful man in the world - he's paid to be decisive under pressure.

Geezer

It's difficult to tell in a film like that what really went on, because Moore is obviously anti-Bush and will present his evidence in that manner. However, some of the scenes, like the ones already mentioned about Congress, and the intervoews with some of the officials about how the Bush administratin clearly wanted to go after Saddam, whether he was involved or not, were quite interesting.

By the time it had got to the invasion of Iraq, it was clearly just a showboat for Moores views. The way he portrayed the US troops as gung ho morons (whilst probably true to certain degree!) was a bit rich, trrops are always going to be like that going into combat initially. It's what they are trained for, and I'm sure it is a rush, right until you see your friends blown apart.

Interesting, but not much new in it for British viewers

Geezer

tiggers

Fahrenheit 9/11 - Clint Eastwood's favourite film

For reference here are Clint's comments to Michael Moore at a recent awards ceremony (bear in mind Moore was in the audience and Clint was staring right at him when he said this):

"Michael Moore and I actually have a lot in common - we both appreciate living in a country where there's free expression, but, Michael, if you ever show up at my front door with a camera - I'll kill you."

Not a fan then I guess

tiggers.

Tiggs

you have no idea what info was passed to him at that time... i wouldnt trust moore any further than i could throw him!

dtriggs

There is a big difference between GW Bush and M Moore. Bush is trying to persuade the whole USA to trust him with their lives. Moore isnt asking anybody to trust him personally but just to examine the evidence he has put together. There is alot of political slant on what Moore shows of course but in reality alot less than what Bush spouts.

For example F 911 shows video of Bush and Powell saying Iraq doesnt have any WMDs, and Rice saying that they are contained. Yet 1 year later they need invading to get rid of these weapons.....which finally they admit didnt exist all the time. How can anybody trust Bush after that ?

His reelection was a big blow to Moore - but if nobody stands and shows the bollox that gets said and lies spouted by the president then it would be a sad world.

Chris L

I'd trust him more than Bush!

Obviously, as the film maker - he puts his own slant on things and it is biased without a doubt. The views of Iraq before the invasion of some kind of land of milk and honey were probably stretching things a little. However, what I found more interesting (and disturbing) were some the facts relating to Bush's election - the whole Florida vote thing just stinks. Also the fact that Congress don't read most of the bills before they vote on them!! Most of the rest of the film is Moore's opinion - take it or leave it. But he does raise some good points about the US Patriot Act and the wide ranging powers this gives the State. We're starting to see similar things here - read the Telegraph (yesterday and today) - there are some extremley disturbing requests coming from the government relating to control of its citizens. All in the name of some unscene terrorist threat...

unclebuck

Non - existant terrorist threat I'd say. What they are planning for the Third Term should worry every right thinking citizen of this country.

Chris L

Exactly - which is what Moore was saying.

khany

I found the scenes of dead women and children very disturbing, and the attitide of the American soldiers sick. I did not support the war and still don't, why our soldiers went to Iraq i have no idea as Iraq posed no threat to us Brits what so ever.

The idea that a terrorist organisation controlled by a single head (Bin Ladin) who lives in a cave and has sleeper cells all over the word simply does not exsist.

War for freedom = Dont make me laugh

I feel for all the families of British Soldiers who have lost their loved ones because of a pointless war.

I have no remose for dead American soldiers, I wish them the death of a dog.

Geezer

What exactly is the difference between American soldiers following orders ot British soldiers follwoing orders?

British soldiers have also committed crime out there, this is what happens in war.

The politicians are to blame for this mess, not the soldiers. Your comment about wishing American soldiers to die like dogs is a disgrace and has no place here.

Idiot

Geezer

tiggers

Feel that way about those that sent them there by all means, but the troops are just doing their job - what would you like them to do - mass conscientious objection

khany

there is a big difference between the attitude of British Soldiers and American, take Basra for example which is under Britsh control, although its not the best place to be...its a lot better than the rest of Iraq under American control.

InvisibleMan

i was wondering how florida voted/reacted this time round. dont recall hearing about any florida objections - did they vote him in this time?

PG

That is what the British press would like you to believe

Geezer

Just because the British soldiers have a better understanding of peace keeping duties than the Americans does not justify the support of the death of American troops!

That type of attitude is what leads to these sorts of problem in the first place

Geezer

Abdabz

Freaked me a but seeing the charred remains of US soldiers being strung up and dragged behind vehicles... Nasty...
The most intriguing thing for me was the business links between the Bushes, their political chums and the Saudis / BinLids... It was well put when he talked about the president getting $400,000 wage a year but his saudi linked business interests benefited by $1.4billion (from memory) after 9/11...
No wonder he sat there like a lost puppy for 7 minutes in that school!!
I despised Bush the brain donor before the film, regardless of biased from the fat fella - I loathe Bush more than any world leader now...
P

gsm1

You've just contradicted yourself. He didn't put a string on those troops mouths and move them up and down. They were their own words. What's wrong with showing that? Or would you rather see some sh*tty speech from Bush talking about the his noble caring soldiers so everyone can convince themselves that their soldiers are the good guys rushing in to help little children from evil Iraqi soldiers.

Yeah..right. I'm sure most British viewers have seen it all before.

RichWalk

Agree with much thats been said here, my only thoughts were all Yanks should be made to watch it then make their own minds up.

Geezer

I haven't contradicted myself in the least. My point is that Moore is trying to portray them as blood thirsty morons who are just itching to wipe out the Iraqis. There will always be an element of the armed forces who appear a little too enthusiatic, and I'm sure that if he had broadcast the complete conversations with these soldiers they would not have appeared as gung ho.

He has clearly edited the footage for his own means.

Geezer

khany

As far as just following orders by that logic all the suicide bombers, the saudi's that flew planes into trade centers, the bali bombers....weren't they just following orders????????

Dont think there are many people in the world that would have wanted them to recieve a dignified death.

gsm1

and

MrShades

I say again, watch "911 in plane site" and then decide what may have happened at the Pentagon and the twin towers.

This stuff is factual rather than Michael Moore's waffling. The Pentagon evidence is as clear as day - the Twin Towers stuff is slightly less clear, but still a great deal in it.

Just why are there no photos or video footage AT ALL of the plane hitting the Pentagon? And why was there no wreckage of a Boeing aircraft found on the lawn of the Pentagon?

http://www.fourwinds10.com/news/08-media/A-audio-video/01-government/2004/911_In_Plane_Site.zip - 108Mb Divx5.1 movie - about 50 mins long.

Much more worthwhile viewing than Fahrenheit 9/11.....

Shades

Flatcapdriver

You can't rationalise it like that because soldiers have to operate within a military constitution that embraces legal concepts as well as moral issues. That's why a small number of British and American soldiers are either being tried or have been tried in military courts for alleged prisoner abuse which contravenes their code of conduct.

Terrorists aren't bound by the same laws as they are not a military body in the sense of represening a nation and therefore cannot fall back on the excuse of following orders.

At the end of the day, soldiers are there because of the whims of their political masters and just because you disagree with their deployment you can't differentiate between British and American troops in the way that you have done.

Geezer

You're obviously struggling with this aren't you?

Example......

interviewer: "So private, what are your feelings about the upcoming battle?"
soldier: "well, I'm pretty nervous about it. It's kind a strange, although you get a sick feeling in the pit of your stomach, man, it's a rush when you go in, I don't know how I should feel about that, people are dying an all. We are under no illusions that this will be an easy task, but at the end of the day, we are here to do a job. We are up for it and we will prevail."

Moore-esque edit:
interviewer "So private, what are your feelings about the upcoming battle?"
soldier"man, it's a rush [cut to scene of dead civilians to break up the conv.] we are up for it and we will prevail" [more scenes of Americans standing over dead Iraqis]

Now, the original conversation puts quite a different slant on it. The troops show confidence, but I do not think that is abnormal, but it certainly does not show them in the same light as an edited version which shows what he said quite out of context.

If you think that Moore has not edited his film to show this type of thing, then you are niaive to say the least.

Khany,
Funnily enough, the US or British troops have not been ordered to fly several hundred civilians to their deaths in a heavy populated ueban area to create terror.

There have been collateral casualties caused by them carrying out their orders, those orders to take out enemy combatants. See the difference?

Geezer

khany

Point taken.