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Old 04 March 2005, 01:02 PM
  #31  
Vipa
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Originally Posted by pslewis
Lets not talk about house buying as you are aware it is governed by its own rules ...

You are playing with words in a clerky type way .....

Lets talk about the ISSUE here:-

Seller offers a Roof Rack for sale

Buyer agrees to buy Roof Rack via an e-mail

Seller agrees to sell Roof Rack and a price is agreed via an e-mail

Is that, or is that not, a BINDING contract?

The very highly qualified advice I have is that it IS!

Pete
In this case..... NO....... not without consideration which.... for this type of contract would mean payment in full or part.... at least £1
Old 04 March 2005, 01:04 PM
  #32  
pslewis
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I am correct - I always am!!

Read this:-

In UK law, a commercial deal is not generally required to be made in writing or in any other prescribed way for it to be legally binding and enforceable (notable exception includes deals transferring ownership of land or buildings, and ownership of intellectual property rights - dealt with later). This leaves the parties free to arrive at their agreements by whatever method they chose: a self-service petrol pump standing on the forecourt is making a commercial offer which is accepted when the petrol is transferred to the customer's car. An offer, once accepted, seals a commercial deal. It is dangerous, therefore, for complex commercial offers to be made and accepted verbally. One or both parties may not appreciate that they have made a legally binding commercial agreement; they may not have discussed and settled all of its details, and either or both of them may well forget precisely what they said - several years later when things go wrong. It follows, therefore, that although UK law does not generally require a written record of the terms and conditions of a commercial deal (if necessary, the parties' evidence on oath in court can be sufficient to prove or defend a case) it is common sense and best practice to do so.

Pete
Old 04 March 2005, 01:05 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Vipa
In this case..... NO....... not without consideration which.... for this type of contract would mean payment in full or part.... at least £1
Please tell me you are having a laugh????

This bloke needs correct advice, not crap!

Pete
Old 04 March 2005, 01:06 PM
  #34  
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Still think you're off the mark Pete. What you've pasted there is right but I'm not sure it's applicable, ie. I'm not sure this falls under commercial law. Unless Bodgery IS a roof-rack retailer of course.
Old 04 March 2005, 01:08 PM
  #35  
Vipa
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Originally Posted by Bodgery
Pete/Paul - thanks for your comments, although I'm still no better off than when I started!! i.e. I don't know which of you is correct.

Anyone else out there in the legal profession who could abritrate?? Pete's summary in his recent post is correct, although I'm not sure on the conclusion of course, which was the point of my post.

Thanks again.
Bodgery.... I'm not a solicitor or directly involved the legal profession... BUT.... just look through the replies to your post.... PSL is the only respondant who clains that you have entered into a binding contract....

My only input really was that there is a lack of 'consideration' which made the contract unenforceable....... (offer, acceptance & CONSIDERATION to form a legally binding contract)

Just think how many people would be conned out of thier wordly posessions if an enforceable binding contract could be formed just by someone offering to buy and someone else accepting the offer with NO OTHER SAFEGUARD IN PLACE (i.e. consideration)

Count how many other replies have also stated that there is no 'consideration' and then form your own opinions....

Paul
Old 04 March 2005, 01:17 PM
  #36  
Vipa
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Originally Posted by pslewis
I am correct - I always am!!

Read this:-

In UK law, a commercial deal is not generally required to be made in writing or in any other prescribed way for it to be legally binding and enforceable (notable exception includes deals transferring ownership of land or buildings, and ownership of intellectual property rights - dealt with later). This leaves the parties free to arrive at their agreements by whatever method they chose: a self-service petrol pump standing on the forecourt is making a commercial offer which is accepted when the petrol is transferred to the customer's car. An offer, once accepted, seals a commercial deal. It is dangerous, therefore, for complex commercial offers to be made and accepted verbally. One or both parties may not appreciate that they have made a legally binding commercial agreement; they may not have discussed and settled all of its details, and either or both of them may well forget precisely what they said - several years later when things go wrong. It follows, therefore, that although UK law does not generally require a written record of the terms and conditions of a commercial deal (if necessary, the parties' evidence on oath in court can be sufficient to prove or defend a case) it is common sense and best practice to do so.

Pete
FFS..... to become binding there must still be consideration......

"a self-service petrol pump standing on the forecourt is making a commercial offer which is accepted when the petrol is transferred to the customer's car."

Guess what the consideration is here................... 10 points if you said the fuel being transfered to the car..

Otherwise the mere act of someone pulling up to the pump (being the offer) and gesturing to the forecourt attendant that he was gonna fill up would obligate that person to fill up..... BUT IT DOESN'T

He can still drive off after deciding NOT to use that filling station and the filling station owner WILL NOT be able to come after him demanding that he fills up from that pump!!!!!!!!

Just because the texts you are producing does not mention consideration does not mean there doesn't have to be any........ THERE ALWAYS HAS TO BE CONSIDERATION......... THIS DOES NOT NEED TO BE MONEY IT JUST NEEDS TO BE A PHYSICAL TRANSFER OF SOMETHING TANGIBLE BETWEEN THE PARTIES TO THE CONTRACT TO SHOw UNEQUIVOCAL COMMITMENT TO FULFILLING THE DEAL, USUALLY THIS IS MONEY!

In Bodgery's case there was no consideration therefore the contract is not binding....

Now I'm getting bored.... I can't think of many more ways to try and get this accross to you Pete!!!!!!!!!

Oh and going back to your 'cash on delivery' scenario.... If the delivery van turns up at your house and you say...' don't want it now... changed my mind....take it away'.... there's not a damned thing the retailer can do about it, the reason being, NO CONSIDERATION! (first hand knowledge of this as the early part of my working life was spent as a store manager for one of the BIG electrical retailers begining with C and ending in T and Haly's is one of them! )

Paul

Last edited by Vipa; 04 March 2005 at 01:26 PM.
Old 04 March 2005, 01:22 PM
  #37  
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Paul ......

WHAT IS A CONTRACT?

Quite simply, it is an agreement between 2 or more parties which is legally binding. NOTE THE WORD BINDING!

Every day we make contracts of some sort, though we may not be conscious of it. There is a common misconception that contracts only come into existence if and when they are written down.

This is not the case.

Instead, many contracts come into existence by things that we say or do. If, for example, you flag down a taxi which has its yellow light on, get in and give instructions to the driver on where you want to go, then you have entered into a contract.

It pays then to take care with your actions and words to ensure you or your business are not committed to contracts you do not wish to enter into.

I'm now bored too ....... so, we will agree to differ?

Pete
Old 04 March 2005, 01:22 PM
  #38  
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Bodgery, visit your local CAB and report back (I've just rung them and they confirm my position)

Pete
Old 04 March 2005, 01:23 PM
  #39  
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Come on Pete.... at least fling a few insults around!
Old 04 March 2005, 01:28 PM
  #40  
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He is insulting himself actually, I have never been so sure of anything in my life than the fact a 'Consideration' does NOT have to be made to make a Contract Binding!

Unless, of course, we are mis-understanding each persons interpretation of the word BINDING?

An offer must be intended to be binding

An offer is an expression of willingness to enter into a contract, made with the intention that the offer will become binding as and when it is unconditionally accepted by the person the offer is made to.

The important thing here is to distinguish an offer from a mere advert or "invitation to treat".

An invitation to treat is where someone invites another person to make an offer - for example, where shopkeepers display goods this is not generally an offer to sell but an invitation to treat, inviting customers into the shop to offer to purchase the goods displayed.

Adverts and requests for tenders are generally regarded as invitations to treat. However, it all comes down to the facts and circumstances of each case - if you word adverts etc. in a way which indicates you intend to be bound by a response, they may be construed as offers.

Pete
Old 04 March 2005, 01:32 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by pslewis
Paul ......

WHAT IS A CONTRACT?

Quite simply, it is an agreement between 2 or more parties which is legally binding. NOTE THE WORD BINDING!

Every day we make contracts of some sort, though we may not be conscious of it. There is a common misconception that contracts only come into existence if and when they are written down.

This is not the case.

Instead, many contracts come into existence by things that we say or do. If, for example, you flag down a taxi which has its yellow light on, get in and give instructions to the driver on where you want to go, then you have entered into a contract.

It pays then to take care with your actions and words to ensure you or your business are not committed to contracts you do not wish to enter into.

I'm now bored too ....... so, we will agree to differ?

Pete
Pete

I'm not disagreeing with you on any of the above....

The fact remains though that acording to English Law a contract to become binding must contain 3 elements.........

1. An offer
2. An acceptance
3. consideration

2 out of 3 is not good enough. Consideration can be almost anything tangible and sometimes intangiable (services) but in todays world is almost always either the money used to pay for the goods or service or the goods or service themselves.

Paul
Old 04 March 2005, 01:36 PM
  #42  
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AND ............

"When is a contract made?

Usually at the time that the deal is struck.

You see a CD that you want in a shop window but because it is out of stock you ask the shop to order a copy for you. The shop agrees - and there's your contract.

You haven't signed anything and you may not have handed any money over but you've agreed that you will once your disc arrives.

That's enough to make your contract legally binding"

I repeat ..................

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

Pete
Old 04 March 2005, 01:42 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by pslewis
AND ............

"When is a contract made?

Usually at the time that the deal is struck.

You see a CD that you want in a shop window but because it is out of stock you ask the shop to order a copy for you. The shop agrees - and there's your contract.

You haven't signed anything and you may not have handed any money over but you've agreed that you will once your disc arrives.

That's enough to make your contract legally binding"

I repeat ..................

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

That's enough to make your contract legally binding

Pete
No it isn't

why do you think most places will either a) make you pay in full for the item or b) take a deposit.

If, when the CD comes into stock and you say I don't want it anymore... unless either a) or b) has happened there's nothing they can do about it!

Your arguments & scenarios are becoming weaker by the post here Pete... more holes than swiss cheese.

Just keep saying....

Offer, acceptance, consideration.... Offer, acceptance, consideration..... you'll soon get it!

Paul

Last edited by Vipa; 04 March 2005 at 01:46 PM.
Old 04 March 2005, 01:48 PM
  #44  
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I give up ...... you are clearly a clerk on an ego trip and I'm not wasting any more time on a half-wit

Pete
Old 04 March 2005, 01:54 PM
  #45  
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Oh.

There is someone I know, who's away at the moment, but she's partner in a law firm. I'll ask her when she gets back and post up the answer. She will be 100% right, I know that for sure. Pitty she's not around just now!
Old 04 March 2005, 01:56 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by pslewis
I give up ...... you are clearly a clerk on an ego trip and I'm not wasting any more time on a half-wit

Pete
Excellent.... I can go do some work now...


Bodgery...

If it's really worrying you do as Pete says and talk to a legal expert at CAB. You will need to make an appt though as the leagle beagles work on a voulantary/part time basis and aren't always there.

Do not make the mistake of taking the CAB telephone operators opinion of the situation unless you have confirmed that they are the legal expert in attendance.

Alternative you can go talk to a Solicitor but that is more likely to cost you...

Other than that.... I really wouldn't worry about it as a) they can't do anything and b) even if they could they wouldn't

they are just feeling ****@d and are just trying to scare you to make themselves feel better.

paul
Old 04 March 2005, 02:06 PM
  #47  
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We agree that they are very unlikely to take any action

We dispute whether the action would be successful ...

Remember the important point .......

"Is a binding contract made once both sides accept the terms of the agreement?"

Pete
Old 04 March 2005, 02:06 PM
  #48  
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thanks for the advice paul.

...and pete!

cheers
Originally Posted by Vipa
Excellent.... I can go do some work now...


Bodgery...

If it's really worrying you do as Pete says and talk to a legal expert at CAB. You will need to make an appt though as the leagle beagles work on a voulantary/part time basis and aren't always there.

Do not make the mistake of taking the CAB telephone operators opinion of the situation unless you have confirmed that they are the legal expert in attendance.

Alternative you can go talk to a Solicitor but that is more likely to cost you...

Other than that.... I really wouldn't worry about it as a) they can't do anything and b) even if they could they wouldn't

they are just feeling ****@d and are just trying to scare you to make themselves feel better.

paul
Old 04 March 2005, 02:08 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by pslewis
I give up ...... you are clearly a clerk on an ego trip and I'm not wasting any more time on a half-wit

Pete
There it is! The obligatory insult!
Old 04 March 2005, 02:10 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by ajm
There it is! The obligatory insult!
That was just for you ...........

Paul is fine ..... a bit delluded, but ok by me!!

Pete
Old 04 March 2005, 02:13 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by pslewis
That was just for you ...........

Paul is fine ..... a bit delluded, but ok by me!!

Pete
Ahhhh... been called worse...
Old 04 March 2005, 03:21 PM
  #52  
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http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthrea...70#post4359270

Old 04 March 2005, 03:36 PM
  #53  
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Bodgery

Pete's wrong. No consideration, no legally binding contract.

Ignore the bloke - if he keeps on at you, tell him it wasn't legally binding as he never paid a deposit or got a receipt. If he still goes on at you, tell him he's welcome to sue you he'll soon give in.

Good luck!

Gordo
Old 04 March 2005, 03:41 PM
  #54  
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Mmm....

Not really sure if anyone has grasped the true meaning of 'Consideration' in a legal context....

Consideration is what distinguishes enforceable promises from those promises which are gratuitous. Courts will not enforce gift or gratuitous promises but they will enforce promises which are supported by consideration. Consideration may consist of an act, i.e., doing that which one is not legally obligated to do, or a forbearance, i.e., refraining from conduct which one is privileged to engage in. Consideration is not simply doing what you are legally obligated to do in any event.

So, in summary, consideration need not be of monetary value, although I appreciate that Vipa didn't claim that it should. Nevertheless, it should be of money or money's worth, meaning that it can be an act or omission of benefit to one party to the agreement or to the detriment of the other.

If the buyer in Bodgery's case acted in reliance on the 'agreement' between the parties to his detriment, then this can constitute consideration, and hence form a binding contract.

Incidentally, the buying and selling of land is governed by different rules under the LPA 1925....

And yes, I reckon I'm pretty well qualified to comment....
Old 04 March 2005, 03:57 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Harry_Boy
And yes, I reckon I'm pretty well qualified to comment....

Typical bloodsucking legal eagle, charging us money to tell us nothing!

Come on, in this particular case, is the thread starter in breach of contract or not?
Old 04 March 2005, 04:00 PM
  #56  
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Well, spoke to my legal friend (partner in law firm) and she said:

a) Only lost opportunity as far as buyer concerned - even if he did persue it, I could point to other similar items and similar prices in autotrader/ebay/etc;

b) No consideration (and in this particular case in would mean money), so cat in hells chance of him being able to take further.

I'm 100% confident of her word on this, she's bloody good. Harry_Boy, I understand your points, but for the value of the items (£120) I doubt very much he'd even havea punt at sueing me. I think the best thing for me to do is not reply anymore to him in case I make it worse.

Cheers for all your advice everyone. Moral is don't do what I did!!
Old 04 March 2005, 04:01 PM
  #57  
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...sorry, just wanted to say what a great place scoobynet is - there aren't many places you can go on the web where you get such quick and interesting responses. Cheers everyone.
Old 04 March 2005, 04:06 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Harry_Boy
Mmm....

Not really sure if anyone has grasped the true meaning of 'Consideration' in a legal context....

Consideration is what distinguishes enforceable promises from those promises which are gratuitous. Courts will not enforce gift or gratuitous promises but they will enforce promises which are supported by consideration. Consideration may consist of an act, i.e., doing that which one is not legally obligated to do, or a forbearance, i.e., refraining from conduct which one is privileged to engage in. Consideration is not simply doing what you are legally obligated to do in any event.

So, in summary, consideration need not be of monetary value, although I appreciate that Vipa didn't claim that it should. Nevertheless, it should be of money or money's worth, meaning that it can be an act or omission of benefit to one party to the agreement or to the detriment of the other.

If the buyer in Bodgery's case acted in reliance on the 'agreement' between the parties to his detriment, then this can constitute consideration, and hence form a binding contract.

Incidentally, the buying and selling of land is governed by different rules under the LPA 1925....

And yes, I reckon I'm pretty well qualified to comment....
Sounds like a Lawyer to me....

Harry... (purely to satisfy my own personal interest - PM me if it will stop people thinking I'm trying to prove any points)

Could you expand or put into Laymans terms

"If the buyer in Bodgery's case acted in reliance on the 'agreement' between the parties to his detriment, then this can constitute consideration, and hence form a binding contract."

Cheers
Paul

PS.... I know land falls under a different set of rules but the procedural principles of the contract are in effect the same and there is definate offer, acceptance and monetary consideration. Just used this as a) it falls into an area where I have practical experience and not just classroom knowledge (memories of Carbolic Smoke Ball firms and horses, fathers, sons, uncles and 5 guineas suddenly present themselves to me) and b) it is a contract that most people will be able to see as a contract (i.e. although buying a loaf from Asda constitutes a contract I doubt many people would recognise it as such.) cheers

Last edited by Vipa; 04 March 2005 at 04:12 PM.
Old 04 March 2005, 04:19 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by ajm
Typical bloodsucking legal eagle, charging us money to tell us nothing!

Come on, in this particular case, is the thread starter in breach of contract or not?
Depends if the prospective buyer acted on reliance and to his detriment...

If so, the remedy (as Pete pointed out - ARGH, I'm agreeing with Mr Lewis !!!) is for the buyer to be put into the position that they would have been in, had the contract been properly completed.

Anyway, in reality, the buyer will probably jump up & down a bit, and nothing will happen, so it's all rather theoretical....
Old 04 March 2005, 04:22 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Bodgery
Harry_Boy, I understand your points, but for the value of the items (£120) I doubt very much he'd even havea punt at sueing me. I think the best thing for me to do is not reply anymore to him in case I make it worse.
100% agree mate, they would be off their trolley to even bother.... Have a look at my previous post (just took me a while to type it, as 'work' intervened....)


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