Adrian F

But we are already paying 30 billion plus more than we should!!!!!!!!!!!!!

boomer

The people most affected by congestion are, er, the people caught up in the congestion!

That is unless you are Princess B.Liar who can drive past it all on the M4 bus lane, or Two Jags who gets chauffeured a couple of hundred yards from his hotel, or Psycopath Straw who can be driven at over the motorway speed limit without getting booked.

So the governments solution is not to actually solve the problem, but to further punish those poor people stuck in congestion by making them pay for it

Hell, at least tempt us into charging, by allowing us to drive at whatever speed we want for a quid a mile

mb

hedgehog

I think the implication that motorists cause congestion is not exactly true, motorists are caught in congestion because it is designed into the road network or because improvements are not made to remove it.

Do you know, for example, that in some areas the laybys for buses to pull into when they stop to pick up passengers were removed so that buses have to stop on the roadway and hold up traffic? This was done in an attempt to encourage car users to get on a bus and was designed to make them feel that they couldn't travel any faster than the bus in their cars. The net result was increased congestion and so, of course, someone could then suggest charging motorist for the harm they cause.

In one city I know of there was a bus strike about 2 years ago and all buses were off the roads. The media predicted chaos but in actual fact the traffic was more free flowing. The greens and control freaks don't want you to know that, or that a bus needs to have an average of 128 people on board before it produces less emissions per person than a car with one person on board.

As has been pointed out traffic is down by about 15% as a result of the Kengestion charge and so the price is having to go up. It has been said that the answer to 99 out of 100 questions is "money" and when you combine the opportunity to make large sums of cash with the opening to have large amounts of control then road pricing, ISA and their relatives offer an amazing chance to government and their private partners.

It is also seen by the far left as the opening they need to return our economy and country to the stone age with people rarely travelling more than 10 miles from home in a lifetime. That will probably never happen, but they think this is a step in the right direction and they are correct.

Another aspect to the ideal that public transport is the solution to congestion is that public transport is heavily subsidised and who pays for this? The private motorist of course. If we all abandoned our cars in the morning the price of public transport would go through the roof and when added to the huge econimic downturn that would be experienced we would end up in a situation where many of us could not afford to use public transport because it would be too expensive. In practical, economic and environmental terms the private car remains the best solution and this is why so many people want to drive and why many extreme left wing groups in our society hate the car so much: there is nothing a Stalinist hates more than a good idea that wasn't thought up by the party and that they can't control. However, they are working on fixing that situation.

Brit_in_Japan

That's why I said the problem is structural. Our love of the motor car has created a beast where our lives are increasingly dependent on it. Creating an alternative transportation infrastructure (trams and trains) is now very difficult as we are used to poin-to-point convenience. It would be prohibitively expensive to create a system which can serve everyone. The dream in the 1950's and 60's was of the car being a liberating means of transportation which would be much cheaper than mass public transport. That decision and the subsequent lack of investment in public transport is now haunting us. Future structural changes such as working from home in a "virtual office" will benefit a few, but there are no easy solutions for the vast majority.

I am very much for personal civil liberties and against Big Brother's all seeing eye. However if that point is in response to my post then you didn't read it properly. You CAN have passive systems which would not report your position. If they are determined to bring in road pricing, this is where we must focus our battle.

I don't think anyone says new roads immediately fill with traffic. But when people discover that a new road offers them a faster journey time, even if the distance is further, they change their route. It only takes a few years typically for the roads to fill up again. There is a very close analogy with electricity flow. The potential (voltage) between two points is the same, the amount of traffic (current) on each route between those two points is proportional to the resistance (congestion) between those points. In time people take different jobs or move to different homes which take advantage of what they perceive as better transportation links so the "potential" increases. Building new roads therefore creates structural changes in where people live and work and does not provide long term solutions to tranportation problems.

Brit_in_Japan

It would be much better if people travelled much shorter distances to work, to the shops, kids went to school by foot and by bicycle etc. But how does one effect such a structural change? Answers on a postcard....

IMHO your "far left" argument is erroneous. Countries such as Germany, Switzerland and Japan have far better public transport systems than the UK and they are hardly models of communist thinking. There is no major difference between Conservatives and Labour on transportation issues, they are equally inept at tackling the problem (well in truth the Tories made a monumental cockup with their railway privatisation, but that's another story...)

Reducing the structural problems related to congestion is the real challenge, but that would need a cohesive policy stretching over decades and the policial parties in this country seem incapable to agreeing any long term politically neutral strategies on anything.

Diesel

If they are going to charge motorcycles for congestion then once again they shoot thesmselves in the foot; its no wonder the public never believe politicians or bureaucrats any more. Motorcycles DONT CAUSE CONGESTION; quite the opposite. If ithe Ciongestion Charge is an additional tax on entering a city centre by means other than public transport then let them just be honest about it, and us vote accordingly.

This kind of thing is also about the total hypocrisy of bleating on about safety [usually based solely on speed issues with fingers-in-ears] whilst fining motorbikes who use bus lanes - it is CLEARLY SAFER for bikes to use bus lanes compared to weaving through traffic and would cost pennies...although derive no income...

Adrian F

We had this public transport infrastructure that every body keeps saying we need to create! It was there before the car took off in the 50's and 60's yet people choose the car!

As I keep saying roads only fill when there is a destination so yes people commute further, well don’t let them stop building houses along side the commuter routes to serve cities like London. The government is trying to build 100,000 plus houses up the "M11 Corridor" a lot of whom will them need to drive down the M11 to go to work in London. If they didn’t build these houses they would have the congestion on the road. Simple logic. Stop building any shops outside the Official town high street see if people like the limited choice they have as a way of stopping congestion?

Having a large amount of cars is one of many signs of economic success for a country. Look at the developing countries like China where as economic success is taking off car ownership is rocketing.

We need to build roads and yes we should be happy if they are busy there is no point building roads nobody uses.

And as to the extra money well may be some of the Billions motorists contribute in Tax could be invested in roads for us.

A lot of the Transport policy is being controlled by people with a zealous political belief that Public transport is the only form of transport. These people are now in the position to make decisions and it is like a domino as they now only promote or employ Like minded people. Trying talking to a Local authority person involved in transport planning about the positives of roads building if you don’t believe me.

as an indication of this one of the people instrumental in introducing the congestion charge in London and who still says it is a success has recently been appointed to a senior position in the Highways department in charge of Motorways and trunk roads with the brief to get traffic moving so we can guess what his views on road pricing will be.

It is like a conspiracy and gone are the days when the people making transport policy or designing roads actually wanted traffic to move. Now days it is policy to restrict traffic flow and force people onto public transport.

As to the Bus stop lay-bys it is all over London where they have paved over the old lay-bys to stop buses pulling over or if that doesn’t work they then build out into the wider roads so that the bus can’t pull out of the traffic flow this is not a mistake this is policy being implemented! Why people can’t understand that congestion is being created deliberately when it happens on there door step!!

Leslie

G C Collier,

There are none so blind old chap.

Try reading those books mentioned above!

Les

GCollier

If you're talking about books covering the rise to power of 20th century dictators come mass murderers, I think it rather crass that you should attempt to draw parallels between these people and road pricing.

Gary.

speedking

But imagine these 'next step' scenarios:

1. As you are 'only' going to Sainsbury's you don't 'need' to go during rush hour, so your car won't start and you will have to wait for the traffic to quiet down until you make your 'non-essential' journey.

2. The government has decided that everyone can do their grocery shopping in two visits a week, and to reduce congestion any journeys in excess of this will be charged at £5/mile. You've just made your second trip but forgotten to buy a birthday card, you cannot afford to go back.

3. As 2. but your car is not allowed in the vicinity of Sainsbury's because you will exceed your permitted number of weekly visits.

Still got nothing to hide? You don't mind HMG deciding when and where you can drive ?

PS: substitute football matches/cinema/retail parks etc. for Sainsbury's in the above if it makes you feel less comfortable. Roads near Old Trafford are congested so your car won't go closer than 5 miles, "but I've got tickets", doesn't matter.

GCollier

UK governments sometimes push through unpopular decisions, but are generally not stupid enough to force through things which would see them at the least removed from office at the next general election and at worst cause mass civil protests which would make the Iraq War and Hunting protests seem like a child's tea party.

But I forgot, the secret police and gulags will be here in a few years to remove any enemies of the state which disagree which government policies...

Gary.

speedking

I like this bit ...

So driving slowly imposes costs on the economy, therefore raising the motorway speed limit, and letting people drive faster where safely possible, would introduce savings to the economy

blueone

The secret police and gulags are already here! Albeit in a different guise.
Have you not heard of the ability to hold anyone they deem to have a personality disorder, the terrorism act, control orders, asbo's?

GCollier

A little different to the death of approximately FIFTY MILLION people forced into brutal slave labour in terrible conditions, no?

OllyK

And the jews thought "it can't harm to sew on a little yellow star, can it now?"

blueone

'Albeit in a different guise'

unclebuck

GCollier is a loyal party member and elitist as his posts repeatedly illustrate.

He is bound to portray anybody who expresses the truth about New Labour's intentions as being 'paraniod' or in some other way unhinged.

GCollier

This was *forced* upon Jews in order to further promote public identification, humiliation and victimisation of minority members of society. Failure to wear it was punishable by death.

Another inappropriate and tasteless comparison to road pricing. Got any more?

Gary.

OllyK

But surely they would never have got away with that becuase there would have been mass civil protests which would make the Iraq War and Hunting protests seem like a child's tea party

As I recall - it was you that started the comparisons:
I'm not suggesting we have the next dictatorship around the corner, but public apathy is allowing the government to push through more and more measures that allow them more control over the population they are supposed to represent. We need a good riot, or at least a change of government now and again to stop them getting carried away.

blueone

There have been many instances in history when the life and rights of an individual have been deemed by a group to be of more importance than there own liberty which they hold so dear. The errosion of freedom and liberty by those in authority should be exposed using all and any means needed to bring it to the attention of the sheep. My comparison does not diminish any suffering felt or experianced by people in the past it merely serves to enforce my view that there is an element of population control in much that is proported to to be for the benefit of society. The question is just whos society is it to benefit? Ours the populous or the Party politicians?

GCollier

It may surprise you to find then that I have never voted labour in my life. I have no implicit love for the current government, but I appreciate the strong economy and opportunities which are available to people, and with the opposition *cough* shambles of a Tory party there is no credible alternative anyway. More importantly I do not look to blame the government for any and all of my own and the country's failures and tend to appreciate the benefits of living in the UK, which natural born whiners like you Unclebuck seem to take for granted.

My comparison was to civil protest in this country to unpopular government decisions, not to dictators and regimes who instigated genocide. Comparison of the labour party to Stalin/Hitler is simply tasteless and paranoid scaremongering.

Leslie

G C Collier,

You should look at what has been and is being put into place largely by stealth, ask yourself why, and then put a few things together having looked back into history, modern and otherwise.

Les