paulr

So dont vote then,but dont say the reason you're not voting is cos they are self serving lying scumbags (or words to that effect)

IMO Labour havent lied anyway.
They said they would invest in public services and they have.

fatherpierre

So the great SN goes for the blues - how surprising LOL.

Thankfully, the general public of the UK is a far broader church than this little site.

It makes me shudder to imagine the Tories back in power again.

Daft Lad

I'll vote for Kilroy!

OllyK

Err apathy being the issue, I don't see that adding more boxes, regardless of what they are for, making any difference. I do think a lot of people just don't care, period and would never vote anyway. Others can't see any difference between the parties (obviously not looking very hard).

Personally I'd like to see a major shake up of the whole political system in this country, don't know which is the best way to go (PR for example or removal of all parties and all MP's are independant serving the good of their constituency - yeah right!)

SiPie

Thankfully indeed

pete1977

imagine the lib-dems being in power,it would be the end of our high speed antics!my mate went to school in a lib-dem controlled area and when they had a school sports day ,whenever they started a race they had a 30second gap between each child,so that they werent directly competing with each other....WTF is that all about?im really happy these morons have no real chance of running this country.As for tory and labour ,its all about the lesser evil of the two,but i have never really been a big labour fan so it looks like tory it is.

Leslie

You have to look at the choices and at least do something to try to get the best government for the country. It means you have to do a bit of real thinking about what you actually know about the likely future of each party. "None of the above" is no answer at all, it is a cop out for whatever reason and there is no excuse for that in an election which will affect all our lives so deeply.

This country is at a crossroads at the moment. You have to decide whether you want to be in a federated europe and having your future dictated by the most corrupt governing body imaginable-ie the commissioners in Brussels. Their annual accounts have still not been accepted by the auditors-thats after ten years now! Where have all those millions disappeared too I wonder.

As a member of federated Europe, we can only vote for our own MEP's and they constitute 10% of the Eu Parliament. What sort of influence would we have in that case? It amounts to us being effectively disenfranchised. It is well worth thinking hard about that and whether it is a good way for the UK to go.

Do you really want to be governed by an authoritarian government which will tell you exactly how to live your life and penalise you heavily if you dont do as they say? We have already lost Habeas Corpus, can you justify giving that much power over your life to the politicians to use to their own advantage?

It is vital that you consider all these sorts of things and then wonder if it is worth leaving the result to chance because you cant bring yourself to use the ballot box.

Les

paulr

Leslie,you really want to get a grip mate.
The total European budget is only the size of Birmingham city council spread over x many countries,

Secondly the European union does not tell me what music to listen to,what films to watch,who my freinds are,who to sleep with,where to work,how much i'm paid so whats this authoratarian rubbish that you're on about.
In fact the only time i've ben to Europe all i noticed was the extended drinking hours and sex shops in the high street,something which the UK government bans us from,not the other way round.

Brendan Hughes

"The most corrupt governing body imaginable" - for all your world travels Les I'm surprised you say this. Never been to Africa, South America or Asia, or even Eastern Europe?

The EU also has power to penalise NOBODY, so where do you get that from? It has no police force, no rights in justice and home affairs. The laws and directives passed in this field are (a) approved (or not) by UK ministers, so it comes back to the national government, and if they aren't directly binding (most aren't) then (b) implemented by national parliaments. That's your local MP again.

Habeus Corpus is academic, when was that last used? Do you honestly see the EU as a police state?

You can only vote for 10% of the MEPs - but you can only vote for one MP out of 600-odd in the UK. Why is one different from the other? BTW, as I understand it the MEPs don't represent a country, they represent a party, and there are only about 5 parties. Again, not really different from here.

I think you should read something other than the Daily Mail and whatever Kilroy's party manifesto is this week.

TelBoy

Not more self-righteous claptrap, surely??

Bodgery

May I correct your inaccurancies...you conveniently confuse the EU parliament with the EU budget.

1) The UK's NET contribution to the EU budget for 2003/4 was 2.4bn
(see www.bized.ac.uk/learn/economics/international/eu/notes/eu1.htm#Heading292)

Approx 2-2.5 times the equaivalent Birmingham City Council budget for the same year.

2) The EU Parliament cost approx. £0.9Bn in 2004.

See www.europarl.org.uk/guide/Gfaqprincip.htm.

fatherpierre

On SN? Never

It's full of balanced, non-bigotted and reasoned people who respect others' views

Luan Pra bang

Lets get a grip of the net figure shall we. we pay billions in taxes to the EU. The part they return is given to dodgy council projects to help prisoners and handicapped people get jobs, to help travellers set up illegal camps etc. A friend of mine works on 2 EU projects both 3 million over two years gets paid 40k from one and won't tell me how much for the other but its alot. He stil has time to run his own job angency in between these two projects. One project he consults for which is also funded by the EU has been given money to develop online teaching software , after this year the company can launch this project as a profit making company now that all the developement costs have been met by the EU. This is what happens to EU cash it doesn't get re-inputed to the community, sheister's and con men take it back from the council and live it up on our taxes. The 8 billion we give a year goes straight to the pockets of those that know how to jump onto the gravy train.

Luan Pra bang

By the way all of my friends money making scams come just from the social fund and most from one council. He has started yet another scam funded by the tax payer where he gets paid to find jobs for prisoners during the last months of thier sentence. He then charges companies good will gestures for the use of these prisoners which they pay becuase it help to meet EU guidlines on helping the community. So he then uses this good will money to pay for hotels cars etc that he 'need's' to do his job.


This is all of one EU fund imagine what happens to the rest.


Just to **** you right off more the marketing project manager was given a budget and used most of it to get a loopy woman at the council to agree to increase her salary to over 60K for doing exactly **** all on what should only be three days a week anyway.

Welcome to Europe every one.

Brendan Hughes

I know a bent policeman. Therefore all public sector employees in the UK are corrupt and a waste of money.

OllyK

I think you may be on to something

Luan Pra bang

How is it corrupt ? Its just how the system works . This isn't an individaul its an example of how these grants work and makes a mockery of the claim that we get some of this money back the social and agriculture funds are giant gravy trains FACT its how the system works. The fact that one individual can be involved in 3 different projects worth 9 million over 2 years and draw salary from all three says alot to me.
But no Europe is great its money well spent honestly becuase we get so much value out of it

Iain Young

Most of the roads / road improvements in northern Scotland were built using European money. We also have a lot of trade agreements in place which would probably not be there if it wasn't for our participation Europe. The situation is not as clear cut as you would like to make it seem...

Brendan Hughes

Quite the opposite. It proves you do get the money back. Well, he does, anyway. And then he presumably spends it somewhere in the UK economy. If it went to build a school you'd say it was a scam for builders. Or teachers. Same with a hospital.

BTW, local councils in England all tender their projects out, a firm wins the tender, carries out the work, makes a profit from it. Plenty of firms exist purely on the business that the public sector gives them. They call it playing by the rules, you call it milking the system. Exactly how do you want the money back without someone, somewhere making a profit from it? Have you been reading too much Marx recently?

I worked for the EU in the former Soviet Union from 94-99 in varying guises, most of the time. I took a taxi back from Gatwick, had a chat with the driver. "Why's all our taxpayers' money going to Russia?" I explained that about 80% of it went to European consultancy firms, employing European consultants, or had to be spent on European equipment - those were the terms of the contracts. At the end, the cost was £42. I told him to write a receipt for £50. "Oh thank you very much sir!". I said "Don't worry, it's not my money. In fact it's probably yours."

I've seen plenty of corruption, mismanagement, wastes of money in my time there. But they could be applied to any public sector, anywhere. Oh, and the private sector is a scam or rip-off, too, particularly IT consultants - look how many get paid a fortune to spend all their day surfing on scoobynet

paulr

Well said Ian.
The European Union is not the greatest thing ever,but neither is it all bad.I just wish people would get things in perspective,rather than enter "rant mode" at the first opportunity.

Bodgery

and by the same token, however many instances or examples of waste you were presented with, you would still mock those presenting them and suggest each one is purely an isolated example. Oh, mustn't forgot the obligatory smug

Iain Young

You can't possibly form an opinion either way unless every department etc is audited on a regular basis and the results made public. Both of those arguments are at opposite ends of the scale, and I suspect the truth is somewhere in-between...

Lum

Agreed. Why dont you print out a choice selection of his posts with a Labour logo on the top and mail one to everyone in the country.

Adam M

errr. European Court of Justice is the overuling authority in this country and the highest appeal court.

European court of human rights also has the power to overturn british law. Remember article 6 of the convention meaning that NIP were deemeds a breach of human rights until they altered the wording.

We signed up to the overiding authority of european law some time back.

paulr

But Adam,give me some examples of how this negatively effects our everday life.
A lot of it is purely academic.

Brendan Hughes

I'll certainly accept that, though AIUI (a) I didn't think they had the power to penalise, b) ECJ is only for actions against a State (so it serves as an appeals court for those "wrongly" convicted - not exactly an arm of federal control, in fact quite the opposit), c) ECHR was (up until recently) Council of Europe rather than European Union, a whole different ball game.

As you say, this is all done and dusted, hardly to panic about in the future. And I wonder how many scoobynetters who complain about Europe have also tried to avail themselves of the NIP loophole?

I'm sorry if I come across as defending the EU, I don't think it's the be-all and end-all that will save the world. But I do object to some of the uneducated bile that appears here.

Anyway, this was about the domestic elections. Carry on

Adam M

brendan, fair points, although ECJ through competition law emposed enormous fines (100s of millions) on volkswagen among others for abuse of a dominant position (price fixing). So they can impose fines. That said, they looked after us, so I don't object.

what I do object to is proposed centralised government run by generally people who are against the english as being not on the mainland. Also weakening of the pound by using our strong econmy to bolster the weaker eastern european countries.

Free movement of people into britain who claim benefits that I have to pay for with no intention of putting back.

The concept is great but there are too many geographical, economic and social variations acorss europe to try to centralise the amount that they are.

paulr

What makes you say that.It may be true,or may not,i dont know.
What i do know is everday in my job i meet lorry drivers from France/holland/spain/belguin/czech republic and poland.They seem just the same as us,all they (and we) want is a better standard of living and a safe future.
They dont have 2 heads or breathe fire????

Luan Pra bang

Brendan in no way am I saying anything about how councils choose companies to carry out work. The money is being spent on laughable projects If it was spent on hospitals and schools there is an end result. Large amounts are spent on rubbish and given to people who would never command those salaries in the private sector and turn in no end result what so ever. The entire social fund would be better spent on schools and hospitals at ground level not a bunch, of waster underqualified, tossers and consultants who have no experience of any jobs what so ever. The vast majority of our cash is wasted, the EU just created a new way to waste more of it. The figure will soon get even worse when we loose our rebate as well.
As it is I have had my own few pound of the council in the past and hopefully will be doing some more business to get some out of the social fund as well in the near future so untill I get on the gravy train myself I will continue to moan and complain at every opportunity.

Brendan Hughes

There's a man with a sense of humour. Good luck with your applications