ChrisC

How do you know they are illegal - maybe they are perfectly legitimate and working to buy the stuff in ASDA so they pay for it. Not every immigrant is illegal.
Well it may be true that prices were lower but they were going up faster and car theft for example was probably worse, burglary too - much crime has gone down but everybody reads about the spectacular cases and gets scared so thinks it has gone up. As for PC'ness I just don't understand the point.

Mick

iTrader: (1)

I think Labour came in too late when they were originally elected! - I couldn't believe that they had not made it the election before!

Unfortunately now they are pulling us harder and deeper towards becoming a European state than anyone else - Jaque Chirak said today on TV that the Treaty will give France more power in Europe - it can't be true that everyone will get more power!!! Just look at UK Independence Party's website for some VERY good reasons to be wary of European Integration http://www.ukip.org/ - We agreed to an EEC not to be taken over by unaccountable beaurocrats in Brussels!

I don't agree that Tony is 'a liar' as such. You can make a statement in good faith and then situations change - that is not lying in my book!

I am concerned about the lack of discipline in schools and for young people.

I am very concerned about pensions - I expect to be old one day and I can't believe that the state pension is always increased below the rate of inflation! Old people weren't know for being well off when I was a youngster, they are worse off now - what are things going to be like when I get to retirement age????

I don't like the new 'jobseeker' style job centres where people are continually having to prove that they are applying for jobs that they have no hope of getting... after 6 months they get sent on a course and so are a student and then back on dole! - so 'we have no long term unemployed' - well what a surprise when they are re-classified by the system every 6 months.

I don't like health service targets - garbage waiting list to get on a waiting list... Ta Da.. target achieved! You can only phone for an GP appointment between 8 & 9 am the day BEFORE you want to go... Ta Da - no waiting list!
IT'S LIKE MAGIC! - ALL AN ILLUSION!

I also think Labour inherited the benefits of all the hard work and 'belt tightening' run by the Tories in the old days - That has made Gordan Brown's job a lot easier - I'm not saying he isn't good at his job - as it would have been quite easy to mess things up!

Anyway just a few thoughts off the top of my head

But I think I'm reluctantly going to have to vote Tory in the absence of a UKIP candidate in my area...

Mick

SirFozzalot

I still don't know who to vote for Can we really trust any of them?

Iain Young

No.

Mick

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunately the only people we can vote for are 'politicians'

Just look at what sort of person you have to be and what you have to go through to be one! - especially a successful one!

All this putting yourself first, undermining other people, having your whole life and family in the public and open to any public scrutiny and inaccurate condemnation. People calling you vulgar names - just because they've always voted for the other party.

Crazy... I have a great interest in seeing the best done for the country - but there is no way I'd even contemplate trying to get involved in this sort of stuff. I like people generally, I don't like criticising others and like to get people to see the good in others - It would not be possible for someone like me to make claims to what I would give people if they voted for me that would be anywhere near as impressive as 'a politician' would. I wouldn't want to put my family though it either.

Direct Democracy seems like a good option see here http://www.directdemocracyinternational.com/index.html

then we could all potentially have a say without pretending to be an expert on every single comment that comes out of other peoples mouths...

Mick

chiark

There used to be a fairly clear cut line between the parties.

Conservative used to be about getting on with your lives with minimum government intervention (personal enterprise), Labour used to be about regulating everything to ensure fair treatment for the less well off.

It still holds somewhat true IMHO. It's probably a good thing that there's no major crisis that is causing the country to vote for something different to labour...

What does worry me about another term of labour is yet more stealth taxes, spiralling student debt, ID cards and complete undermining of personal liberties (trial by jury, anyone), being America's lapdog, kowtowing to EU bureaucracy, but most of all the implosion that is coming in our economy through personal borrowing... Whether that be a first time buyer's mortgage, stupidity on credit cards, or whatever.

The tories to me have been running a less than brilliant campaign, focusing on the politics of personality rather than issues. Labour have cocked up with their negative campaigning too, and I find the "vote for Lib Dems and you'll let the tories in through the back door" to be a great insult to the Lib Dems.

The lib dems are just too liberal to be seen as a proper party in most people's eyes, and unfortunately the more extreme policies that their party has adopted though conference voting always gets dragged out to haunt them - plus the fact that middle england will be quite a lot worse off under the Lib Dems, and as labour has proved, chucking money at a problem isn't enough... (Thinking NHS here)

Blair should have stepped aside and let Brown fight this election, although that might not have done labour any favours as Brown has some "interesting" ideas.

Howard is not a great leader. I can see him as a prime minister, but I can't see him lasting more than one term as I think people will tire quickly of his waffliness and inability to answer a direct question - you could accuse Blair of the same tho...

In answer to the thread, the tories do have policies - read the manifesto. There's not a huge change promised from Labour plans, as there isn't the ability to change that rapidly, however I think it's time someone else had a shot at making this country great once again. I do not think Labour have managed to do that, and yes I do accept that 18 years of Conservatism didn't do great shakes either.

IMHO, time for a change of approach, but I personally reckon that Labour will nudge it with a much reduced majority of around 60 - or there may even be a hung parliament if enough labour voters can't be arsed to vote...

Newbie123

Actually you and I are in the minority along with everyone else who is discussing who they will vote for (no matter which party), because we will actually be voting unlike the majority of the population who won't be.

That is the truly sad fact. Labour will be re-elected but less than a fifth of the population will have voted for them.

But at least my vote will cancel out your vote

paulr

1.It costs 22k for a heart bypass.Under the Tories you will have to stump up 11K.Basically that will only subsidise fairly well off people.

2.I'll take your word for that.TBH Labour have let this slip and hopefully will do something about it.Personally i trust them to get it sorted......eventually.

3.Never heard of this.

paulr

In the abscence of a better system,we have no choice but to trust them....or at least give that illusion.

paulr

Oh.......and Mr P.S.Lewis,please take your trolling elsewhere,we are trying to have a sensible (by scoobynet standards) discussion here.

Thanks in advance.

...

chiark

If you want policies, you need to actually look for them - they don't fall into your lap.

The conservative website contains all their policies:
http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do...y.listing.page

From the headlines on their site:
Economy - http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do...c.page&tabID=1
NHS - http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do...c.page&tabID=4
Education - http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do...c.page&tabID=3
Welfare State - what aspect of it do you want? It's quite a big topic

From reading their website, the accountability that they are trying to bring in is brave, and if it works it will be fairly revolutionary IMHO.

Here's the timetable for action on the Health Service:
Timetable for Action
Within the first day of a Conservative Government
Tick We will abolish targets imposed by Whitehall on hospitals. This will give control of our hospitals back to health professionals.
Within the first week
Tick We will make it possible for people to have access to information about hospital performance, including on infection rates. This will allow people to make better informed choices about their treatment.
Within the first month
Tick We will ensure that matrons have the authority and resources to keep wards clean and safe. This will put matron in charge and deliver cleaner hospitals.

OK, I might not agree with aspects of what they want, but the idea of a politician saying "I'll do this - hold me accountable if I don't" is pretty damn good.

They should have focused on accountability, not negativity...

paulr

Chiark,to me that reads like you're not totally anti New Labour,but you are dissapointed by them.However the Tories dont make you want to rush out and vote for them either.

That is what will decide this election.Is it one more chance,or time for a change.

OllyK

As I understand it you would have 3 choices with the Tories:
1) You can pay out for "BUPA" and go fully private
2) If you don't have "BUPA" but have some cash, you can fund yourself and the NHS will pay half of what it would have cost for them to have provided your treatment
3) You can go free on the NHS as you can now.

Sadly TB only joined the real world last week when he finally realised that the only reason the NHS is meeting targets is because they are making it almost impossible to get on waiting lists. At least with what the Tories propose you can fast track and potentially lessen the strain on the NHS infrastructure (although in terms of surgeons it will make little difference). Option 2 gives people a choice if they can pay, and the NHS pays out half what it would have done if it had treated them.

I'm not saying the Tories would implement the policy exactly as stated or that they are in any way perfect, it just seems an extra choice has been added to what is currently available.

paulr

As far as i understand you are correct.
Going private does remove some burden of the NHS,but where would the 11k come from,the NHS budget?
The argument is if you can afford 11k for an operation then in all likelyhood you can afford 22k.

useful link.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/608905.stm

Dream Weaver

But it wont be a necessity to go private, just an extra choice. You can still have the bypass on the NHS and wait the silly length of time we have to wait now, but there will also be the option of having it done privately if you so desire at a reduced cost - everyones a winner.

And what about dentists, no-ones really mentioned that? Since Labour came into power, dentists have been privatised to the point where I now have to travel 40 miles to see my dentist which is in greater manchester (miles away). its the only option for NHS treatment. 2 years back i had to go private and pay £600 for a tooth operation because there were no NHS dentists available - fantastic

OllyK

Where will the 11k come from? Well if that person doesn't currently go private, the NHS will be treating that person anyway and will be trying to find 22k rather than 11k. I'm not sure I see your argument.

Likewise everybody has an upper limit and something becoming half price suddenly makes it affordable to a lot more (but not all) people.

chiark

Bingo. I'm not totally anti new labour - I used to be, but they have somehow managed to look after our economy fairly well, notwithstanding the personal headaches ahead...

Having spent some time on the Tory website, I am actually impressed with their approaches to most things - I am slightly dumbfounded why they've chosen to attack blair rather than big up their policies, specifically the timetables that they have for doing specific, achievable things!

Dream Weaver

Yes, the £11k would come from the NHS budget, but it would be better than the NHS having to pay £22k (as they do now), thus saving them £11k.

What people dont realise is that the NHS currently pays out £85 million a year for people to have private ops, not as private patients but as NHS patients. Mate of mine had a knee op last year on the NHS but it was done at a private hospital with own room, ala carte food menu etc, all on the NHS

As for if you can afford 11 then you can afford 22 thats not strictly true. If I needed an operation urgently then i could probably scrape to £11k by selling cars etc, but could never stretch to £22k.

Dream Weaver

OllyK and I keep answering with the same answers at the same time, sorry

Mick

iTrader: (1)

Saw Howard on tv this morning... Improved my view of him - might manage to be a reasonable PM after all? - I suppose anyone could do it really - just look at those who have been there


Mick

OllyK

Because most of the hard line NL voters are not going to change to Tory because of policies. They have to loose faith in NL before they will even consider changing. The fence sitters or those that want NL out and have actually looked are well aware of what the Tories are offering. Will they deliver? I don't know, but many people are harping on about their performance of 8 years + ago. There are new faces and ideas since then so they are a bit of an unknown.

NL however have an 8 year track record of surrounding things in red tape and throwing money at it in the hope the problem will get better. IMO, it hasn't really got better, the figures are twisted and fudged (not saying the others don't do the same) to try and make their claims and overall it is costing us a lot more for little if any improvement. If I'm going to live in a ****hole (I don't see it being different under any party within our current political system) I want it cost me as little as possible and with the spare cash I'll make my own provision rather than having government fritter it away.

OllyK

Almost word for word too - are you copying me?

Cold Turkey

what goes around comes around Pete ... the shower of sh!te genuine socialists like Foot and Kinnock gave us 11 yrs of Thatcher

Now an equally poor showing by the Tories - Major, Hague and Howard has given us 13? yrs of Bliar and Americanisation of politics in this country

there is no-one in labour, including Brown, that will be able to carry the mantle when Blair joins the after dinner speaking circuit

Cold Turkey

car crime was worse because it was much easier. manufacturers have now responded to improve the situation not govt policy or policing.

nobody I know thinks crime has gone down. statistics may show it has gone down but statistics are manipulated. have you tried reporting a crime and getting a crime number recently ? police don't want to know half the time because it affectys there statistics.

I don't know anyone who thinks the overwhelming spread of political correctness and its use by NL spin doctors is a good thing.

Cold Turkey

spot on post !!

I'm afraid to say I agree with your fears about the future of the economy and its underlying problems. I wouldn't say the economy has been well managed by labour just not overly interfered with and at the same time the global economy has been better than expected. However, our economy has been supplemented by a huge amount of consumer and govt spending ... which has to be paid for sooner or later ...