OllyK

It isn't a "bad" thing as such, more of an irrelevant one. Flying a kite to stop bullying isn't a bad thing, it just has no effect.

As has been said, if you are going to commit a crime, with a gun, it is unlikely that the weapon is going to be legally owned by the person committing the crime.

So what are you hoping a "license" is going to achieve. If you are saying as a condition you have to have a secure cabinet, inspected anually by the police to reduce the risk of the gun being stolen and becoming a gun used in a crime, and that licensees have to by psychologically evaluated then maybe you have a point. But a bit of paper isn't going to achieve anything on it's own, it's just red tape to give people a warm glowy feeling that the government are doing something.

OllyK

Let's just assume for a moment, that having to get a license for an air gun, will stop all gun related incidents over night. Do you think these people with an obvious criminal propensity will reform and become good citizens? Or will they seek out illegal guns or alternative weapons such as knives, bats etc? Guns may be preferable as they distance you from your victim, but I don't the abscence of guns or more tightly controlled guns solving the underlying problem that is driving these people to commit the crime.

Iain Young

Well, personally, I think the secure cabinet idea is a good one, although I agree that it would only be worth implementing if it was likely to have an effect though (i.e. not just red tape) as it would be costly.

Iain Young

True, but you have to start somewhere. At least making it illegal to have one without a license gives the police a bit more power if they catch someone holding an illegal one.

OllyK

I agree, we seem to disagree on where. I say start with the people causing the problem, the criminals, you seem to prefer to start with the people who are not the problem, i.e. the general law abding public. That just seems a bit ar$e about face to me.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

The police already have the power it is the CPS that are spineless morons fuelled by the tree hugging dogooders and human rights activists.

This is where we need to concentrate our efforts, not on banning guns but by dishing out penalties and sentances worthy of detering people from committing the crime in the first place.

ajm

First let's look at who an Airgun licence will affect...

a) Legitimate users of airguns, respectful, genuine sportsmen - well yes, they will queue up dutifully at the police station to get their forms, take them home, get someone in a responsible job who has known them for at least seven years to countersign the photos, pay £50, show an officer their security arrangments. Then they will put up with all the bureaucracy of further form filling, registered posts etc every time they buy or sell an air weapon. They will jump through the hoops and be inconvenienced.

b) Illegitimate Airgun Users, chavs people who don't give a damn about shooting sports - errr no. Their airguns will be stashed in the back of their cupboards or under their beds until the next time they fancy shooting it at a fireman. Or maybe now it is a nonregistered firearm they will exploit its new value on the black market and sell it to a bank robber. A new black market is born.

Secondly, what of the people out there who don't yet have an airgun, but fancy a bit of "ultra violence" of a Saturday night. What will they do now? They have tried the local airgun shop and have been turned away, so what are they going to do now? Pick up their knife instead? Maybe. Buy an unregistered, untraceable airgun off their mate who is trying to get rid of his due to the new laws? Possibly. Go down the pub and buy a handgun off dodgy Dave? Feasible. Go home and give up? Unlikely.

For what it's worth, and for the record, I think an outright ban would be a despicable and disgraceful act and the governement should be ashamed for even saying it is under consideration. Have they learned nothing from the handgun debacle?

I admit, however, that licensing could be a viable option, if only as a way of symbolising the division between law abiding owners and criminals which many people seem unable to see for themselves. BUT, if you think it will make any difference to chavs being able to shoot people with them then you are misguided in the extreme.

As long as there are people wanting to hurt people then guns will be used to hurt people, and it doesn't matter whether they are banned, licensed or unlicensed, as has been shown time and time again.

The only sure thing is that people who enjoy shooting as a legitimate sport will suffer.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

Something tells me that the cost is going to be a lot more than a few quid. I do not feel like being fleeced for having an air rifle. It is not as if they are allowed to be powerful in the UK anyway, most are de-tuned to half power (mine is).

The better thing to do is to ban all immatation guns. And I mean all of them. Cap guns, water pistols the lot. You can still have cap guns and water pistols, but ones that do not look like real guns (eg super soaker).

There is no need for a gun to be produced to make it look like a sub machine gun. If someone really feels the need to have something like that, then they could be licensed, eg for props in films etc.

A lot of these crimes do not actually involve firing the weapon. After all, if someone fires an airgun you are not going to sh*t your pants are you? They rely on the gun looking like a gun. There have been many cases where people have used water pistols or cap guns to hold up people. Indeed, there was a teenager shot dead by police for carrying such a weapon.

Iain Young

I think I already said that a while ago

I don't see any need for an airgun to look like a real magnum / AK47 / whatever. If all they are being used for is sport, then who cares what they look like.

You might think different if it hid your eye or your baby, but I see your point.

Yep, but I can understand why. If you saw a ruffian standing outside your kids school entrance holding an AK47. How would you feel, not knowing if it was a replica or not. Likewise, if you're a copper and are faced with what looks like a real gun pointing at you, are you going to let him shoot first so that you can find out if it's real or not?

I'm not against air guns, I'm against realistic looking airguns, (or even realistic model guns).

I've not said once that a ban was the way forward, only licensing. It gets rid of some of the middle ground, makes it clearer about what is illegal and what isn't, and should help the police by easier identifying what is legal and what isn't.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

Why license when you can ban? There is no need for an airgun to look like a real weapon, so ban all of the ones that do. Simple, problem solved.

No need for costly annoying and, imo ineffective, licensing. If the police see something that looks like a gun, then its illegal, and can be confiscated. Simple and really effective.

Any manufacturer wanting to sell a product (any projectile toy, air gun, whatever) would have to submit it to a body that would determine if it impersonated a real gun. If given the seal of approval it could be sold, without license too.

There is a certain irony to this argument that we have not touched on so far. I'm assuming that you do not have an air weapon so I'll explain. Currently, in the UK, all air weapons are limited in power (12 lb ft). It is illegal to have an air weapon that has more power than this. Even though there are many good quality weapons out there that should be capable of much more power, they are limited to this low figure (mine included). The reason? So that they do not have to be licensed.

Now I bet if they introduce licensing, they will not up the limit to allow my weapon to be used at its maximum power (double our current limit). When this government leglislates it always just seems to take. There is rarely a give and take situation.

I do not want the hassle of licensing, but at least if I have to license, at least allow me to use my gun at full power.

I've no chance of getting this of course. The majority of people do not know these facts. The government does not care. It is far better to promote a policy with spin to get a few votes. If we really do have a licensing system, then there really is no reason to limit the power of airguns. Its not as if they are even going to be as powerful as licensed shotguns.

I just get really tired of every extra policy creating more red tape. Everything they do means more paperwork, more bureucrats, and more cost. The police, NHS , schools, everything. Where and when will it ever stop?

BTW - I do not think that you made the point that all toys/ weapons that are in the shape of a gun should be banned. If you did, then I apologise. There are very few that realise that water pistols can be just as much of a problem. I know that sounds daft, but some of them are made to be really realistic.

Iain Young

Not sure if I did. I was definitely thinking it though (working at the same time, so not totally sure what I was typing ).

I agree with you though. Making air guns as replicas of real guns, or models / toys of real guns should be illegal, and it should be made obvious in some way that a gun is not real. After all, I don't know what all guns look like, so I wouldn't necessarily know if it was a replica or not.

Iwan

Neither of those two people would have been in posession of their weapons if laws existing at the time were being followed to the letter by police and the CPS. Both had had numerous complaints made to the police by their respective gun clubs regarding their mental stability and overall approach to shooting. For one reason or another, nobody followed up the concerns/complaints in both cases leading to tragic consequences.



More bans is not what's needed*, following existing laws to the letter (as was intended) would have more effective.

*Though even as a pro-shooter I'd argue there isn't really a case for fully automatic weapons to be kept in the home unless you live somewhere well dodgy like Johannesburg, Kabul, or Bristol.

rgv_stu

well if you own shotguns the police only turn up once every 5 years to check your cabinet and sample your ability to make a cup of tea, this costs me £40+.

perhaps people should be allowed to use a firearm and the handgun ban was lifted, you could probably guarentee that the criminal will think twice about breaking into a house if he might possibly end up with a bullet in his face ??