Endowment mis-selling
10 May 2005, 08:36 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by FlightMan
Am i correct in thinking that you cannot get compensation for endowments sold before 1989?
I was sold my policy in 1988 / before 1988 - does this make a difference?
Yes it does. Depending on when you were sold your endowment policy affects whether your complaint can be dealt with by the Financial Ombudsman Service or if the business is no longer trading, the Financial Services Compensation Scheme.
Financial Services legislation was introduced in 1988. Since then, consumers have been able to take complaints to the Financial Ombudsman Service (or one of its forerunners) if they were unhappy with the outcome of the complaint to the company. If the company has gone out of business they have been able to take their complaint to the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. However, because sales and advice were not regulated before this legislation, endowment policies sold before 1988 and in early 1988 do not fall automatically under the safety net of the Financial Ombudsman or Compensation Scheme.
There are some important dates to consider if you were sold before 1988 or in early 1988.
If you were sold your policy before 29 April 1988 , unfortunately you do not automatically have the right to take your complaint to the Ombudsman if you are unhappy with the outcome of the complaint from the company. However, many large companies have voluntarily agreed to allow complaints about policies sold before this date to be dealt with by the Ombudsman. If you were sold your policy before this date and are not sure whether your complaint can be dealt with by the Ombudsman, contact their helpline on 0845 080 1800.
If the company who employed the adviser who sold you the policy has gone out of business or is no longer trading, you can take your complaint to the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. Unfortunately the rules don't allow the Financial Services Compensation Scheme to investigate any potential claims that relate to policies sold before 28 August 1988 . A website explaining more about how the Compensation Scheme handles complaints and can be found at www.fscs.org.uk (external site). You can also contact the scheme's helpline on 020 7892 7300.
Yes it does. Depending on when you were sold your endowment policy affects whether your complaint can be dealt with by the Financial Ombudsman Service or if the business is no longer trading, the Financial Services Compensation Scheme.
Financial Services legislation was introduced in 1988. Since then, consumers have been able to take complaints to the Financial Ombudsman Service (or one of its forerunners) if they were unhappy with the outcome of the complaint to the company. If the company has gone out of business they have been able to take their complaint to the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. However, because sales and advice were not regulated before this legislation, endowment policies sold before 1988 and in early 1988 do not fall automatically under the safety net of the Financial Ombudsman or Compensation Scheme.
There are some important dates to consider if you were sold before 1988 or in early 1988.
If you were sold your policy before 29 April 1988 , unfortunately you do not automatically have the right to take your complaint to the Ombudsman if you are unhappy with the outcome of the complaint from the company. However, many large companies have voluntarily agreed to allow complaints about policies sold before this date to be dealt with by the Ombudsman. If you were sold your policy before this date and are not sure whether your complaint can be dealt with by the Ombudsman, contact their helpline on 0845 080 1800.
If the company who employed the adviser who sold you the policy has gone out of business or is no longer trading, you can take your complaint to the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. Unfortunately the rules don't allow the Financial Services Compensation Scheme to investigate any potential claims that relate to policies sold before 28 August 1988 . A website explaining more about how the Compensation Scheme handles complaints and can be found at www.fscs.org.uk (external site). You can also contact the scheme's helpline on 020 7892 7300.
10 May 2005, 09:36 PM
#34
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I took an endowment out in 1996. Made a complaint in February this year and was sent a cheque for £3000...! 
A pal of mine works in that area and says it's easy money - send in a letter saying you were mis-sold the policy, you are almost guaranteed to get money back. Usually between £2K - £4K
BTW, I changed to repayment 2 years ago so didn't need the policy to pay the mortgage off anyway - made no difference
A pal of mine works in that area and says it's easy money - send in a letter saying you were mis-sold the policy, you are almost guaranteed to get money back. Usually between £2K - £4K
BTW, I changed to repayment 2 years ago so didn't need the policy to pay the mortgage off anyway - made no difference
10 May 2005, 10:07 PM
#35
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Some excellent info here on endowment mis-selling:
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/consumer/01_WA..._compcalc.html
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/consumer/01_WA..._compcalc.html
11 May 2005, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Rodge
I took an endowment out in 1996. Made a complaint in February this year and was sent a cheque for £3000...!
A pal of mine works in that area and says it's easy money - send in a letter saying you were mis-sold the policy, you are almost guaranteed to get money back. Usually between £2K - £4K
BTW, I changed to repayment 2 years ago so didn't need the policy to pay the mortgage off anyway - made no difference
A pal of mine works in that area and says it's easy money - send in a letter saying you were mis-sold the policy, you are almost guaranteed to get money back. Usually between £2K - £4K
BTW, I changed to repayment 2 years ago so didn't need the policy to pay the mortgage off anyway - made no difference
which is the same as having a fender bender and claiming you have whiplash.
11 May 2005, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Rodge
I took an endowment out in 1996. Made a complaint in February this year and was sent a cheque for £3000...!
A pal of mine works in that area and says it's easy money - send in a letter saying you were mis-sold the policy, you are almost guaranteed to get money back. Usually between £2K - £4K
BTW, I changed to repayment 2 years ago so didn't need the policy to pay the mortgage off anyway - made no difference
A pal of mine works in that area and says it's easy money - send in a letter saying you were mis-sold the policy, you are almost guaranteed to get money back. Usually between £2K - £4K
BTW, I changed to repayment 2 years ago so didn't need the policy to pay the mortgage off anyway - made no difference
11 May 2005, 12:11 PM
#38
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Not at all. I have not and will never made a false claim for ANYTHING....!
The guy who sold me the policy *assured* me that the policy would pay off the mortgage and leave a tidy sum (approx £100K)
So why after 9 years it is projected to make a loss of £10K upon maturity (still 16 years to go). Quite a difference, I think you will agree ?
I could have invested that money and got a better return myself than that..!!
Lol at the "so called financial experts" - I could have bought and sold secondhand cars and made more than that..!!
The guy who sold me the policy *assured* me that the policy would pay off the mortgage and leave a tidy sum (approx £100K)
So why after 9 years it is projected to make a loss of £10K upon maturity (still 16 years to go). Quite a difference, I think you will agree ?
I could have invested that money and got a better return myself than that..!!
Lol at the "so called financial experts" - I could have bought and sold secondhand cars and made more than that..!!
11 May 2005, 12:20 PM
#39
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My insurance company actually sent me a letter telling me to complain if I thought the policy had been mis-sold. Think they had to do this.
Anyway, sent off the form, and they replied that they didn't think I had grounds for complaint regarding mis-selling, but they still offered my £2600!
I could have appealed and got more, or possibly less, so I took the money.
Complain direct, don't go to one of the companies that wants a commission
Anyway, sent off the form, and they replied that they didn't think I had grounds for complaint regarding mis-selling, but they still offered my £2600!
I could have appealed and got more, or possibly less, so I took the money.
Complain direct, don't go to one of the companies that wants a commission
11 May 2005, 12:55 PM
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I successfully claimed against mine being mis-sold. The major issue with endowments is not the, 'values can fall as well as rise' risk, but the amount you are charged, and the way it is charged. All charges on these investments are front-loaded, all taken during the first 18 months or so of the policy. I investigated mine and found the first 18 months payments I made all went in costs, none invested whatsoever! this makes a huge difference to the final payout, as compound interest has its highest return over the longest term. If the charges were not explained, an the impact on final payout not explained then the product was mis-sold.
The amount you will receive will be equivelent to if you had invested the cash in a bank and got the BoE standard rate of interest.
The amount you will receive will be equivelent to if you had invested the cash in a bank and got the BoE standard rate of interest.
11 May 2005, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd
Who pays the compensation - the insurer or the IFA? If not the IFA, then does the IFA get any penalty?
F
F
depends who sold it it.......and IFA's pay MASSIVE amounts in PI cover to deal with things like this.....resulting in many of them going out of business, so they dont "get away" with it if thats the point.
in 5 years the public will be screwed for advice because most firms will only deal with high worth people that can either pay big fees or allow for large comsissions from their plans..............no one will earn enough to help the "little guy" who will want to know if he should take his pre 97 protected rights benifits now or wait until post A day when he can get 25% as cash" etc, etc
11 May 2005, 01:17 PM
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I have two endowments with the same company, one taken out in '87 and one in '89. Both were underperforming obviously. I complained and after filling in some pretty extensive forms got two cheques totalling several £k - which was worth the effort.
Tentenths is spot on above regarding method of calculation. This was presented to me with cheque.
When I looked recently, the policy clearly states on the front page, that the return is not guaranteed ! But this did not affect the outcome re compensation.
However, when discussing with FA all those years ago, the projected rates were 9 - 15% (and that was what I was paying for the mortgage
). The only thing explained as the risk, was the level of bonus that would be reached, at about 10% to 100% of the projected value.
Tentenths is spot on above regarding method of calculation. This was presented to me with cheque.
When I looked recently, the policy clearly states on the front page, that the return is not guaranteed ! But this did not affect the outcome re compensation.
However, when discussing with FA all those years ago, the projected rates were 9 - 15% (and that was what I was paying for the mortgage
). The only thing explained as the risk, was the level of bonus that would be reached, at about 10% to 100% of the projected value.
11 May 2005, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tiggs
depends who sold it it.......and IFA's pay MASSIVE amounts in PI cover to deal with things like this.....resulting in many of them going out of business, so they dont "get away" with it if thats the point.
in 5 years the public will be screwed for advice because most firms will only deal with high worth people that can either pay big fees or allow for large comsissions from their plans..............no one will earn enough to help the "little guy" who will want to know if he should take his pre 97 protected rights benifits now or wait until post A day when he can get 25% as cash" etc, etc
in 5 years the public will be screwed for advice because most firms will only deal with high worth people that can either pay big fees or allow for large comsissions from their plans..............no one will earn enough to help the "little guy" who will want to know if he should take his pre 97 protected rights benifits now or wait until post A day when he can get 25% as cash" etc, etc
11 May 2005, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Tiggs
depends who sold it it.......and IFA's pay MASSIVE amounts in PI cover to deal with things like this.....resulting in many of them going out of business, so they dont "get away" with it if thats the point.
11 May 2005, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick100
I have two endowments with the same company, one taken out in '87 and one in '89. Both were underperforming obviously. I complained and after filling in some pretty extensive forms got two cheques totalling several £k - which was worth the effort.
Tentenths is spot on above regarding method of calculation. This was presented to me with cheque.
When I looked recently, the policy clearly states on the front page, that the return is not guaranteed ! But this did not affect the outcome re compensation.
Tentenths is spot on above regarding method of calculation. This was presented to me with cheque.
When I looked recently, the policy clearly states on the front page, that the return is not guaranteed ! But this did not affect the outcome re compensation.
* And no, before anyone asks, I'm not going to tell you which ones.
11 May 2005, 01:55 PM
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Just found my calculation summary.
Cost of Mortgage 27,723.46
Cost of Repayment Mortgage 26,122.02
Difference 1,601.44
The difference in the balance
between your mortgage and a
repayement mortgage 6,263.82
Cash Value of Your Policy 5,336.04
Difference 927.78
Compensation Payable 2,529.22
Net Interest Payable at 8% 164.98
Total Compensation Payable 2,694.20
Incidently, I had already changed my mortgage to a repayment one and cashed in my endowment policy because I realised they're was going to be a shortfall, before receiving their letter.
Cost of Mortgage 27,723.46
Cost of Repayment Mortgage 26,122.02
Difference 1,601.44
The difference in the balance
between your mortgage and a
repayement mortgage 6,263.82
Cash Value of Your Policy 5,336.04
Difference 927.78
Compensation Payable 2,529.22
Net Interest Payable at 8% 164.98
Total Compensation Payable 2,694.20
Incidently, I had already changed my mortgage to a repayment one and cashed in my endowment policy because I realised they're was going to be a shortfall, before receiving their letter.
11 May 2005, 02:09 PM
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Some of the "big boys" in the industry i.e. insurance companies* have decided - in my view wrongly - to pay compensation regardless of whether the original sale complied with the then rules. This is down to economics - they reckon it's less costly for them to simply pay compensation rather than spending, cumulatively, thousands of hours going through each and every single complaint with a fine toothcomb to assess whether or not the sale was compliant.
* And no, before anyone asks, I'm not going to tell you which ones.
* And no, before anyone asks, I'm not going to tell you which ones.
CIS is one and Standard Life are another. Probably quite a few...
11 May 2005, 02:55 PM
#49
Tentenths, I have had advice from an IFA for many years. He has been very helpful but one old endowment is underperforming, which he didn't go through the checks that he supposed to these days. Its only a small amount but I guess I'll get something back if I tried. The thing is that I value the help that the IFA has given me freely and this is a glitch, so I don't want to stitch him up as a thanks. Do you have any view on this?
I'm not normally so forgiving with comercial people but this I feel is different.
F
I'm not normally so forgiving with comercial people but this I feel is different.
F
11 May 2005, 03:51 PM
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Interestingly I had a claim rejected(only a 10K endowment that only missed by 400 quid) on the basis that I had signed up for a low to medium risk and they deemed endowment low to medium risk....not sure I'd agree myself in hindsight.
You've got to laugh at this all being blamed on stockmarket drop. Sure it dropped from late 2000 till now, however it went through unprecidented growth before that and I was still only getting 3-5% average bonuses on mine, at the time you put it down to them being conservative in their investments, obviously a lot of cack.
The problem is that the whole concept of Endowment mortages has been shown to be totally flawed, they should never have been marketed. However all the big insurance companies and banks pushed it(getting bothe sides of the housing boom business) and were happily assisted by IFA's getting commission.
Then of course you have the big issue once you're in, keep going or cash in and take the loss(commission), which incidently they nearly always advise against.
On reflection why would you whilst making the biggest purchase of your life take out the biggest gamble.....20 years ago it was all the rage.
I've also got to disagree with many of teh one sided comments on here regarding it all being the punters fault, surely if you turn up at a bank for a mortgage you expect impartial advice. This was not the case then.
You've got to laugh at this all being blamed on stockmarket drop. Sure it dropped from late 2000 till now, however it went through unprecidented growth before that and I was still only getting 3-5% average bonuses on mine, at the time you put it down to them being conservative in their investments, obviously a lot of cack.
The problem is that the whole concept of Endowment mortages has been shown to be totally flawed, they should never have been marketed. However all the big insurance companies and banks pushed it(getting bothe sides of the housing boom business) and were happily assisted by IFA's getting commission.
Then of course you have the big issue once you're in, keep going or cash in and take the loss(commission), which incidently they nearly always advise against.
On reflection why would you whilst making the biggest purchase of your life take out the biggest gamble.....20 years ago it was all the rage.
I've also got to disagree with many of teh one sided comments on here regarding it all being the punters fault, surely if you turn up at a bank for a mortgage you expect impartial advice. This was not the case then.
11 May 2005, 05:29 PM
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" surely if you turn up at a bank for a mortgage you expect impartial advice."
why? they are in business to make money, as long as they can do so within the rules at the time they will.
worth noting that at the time many peoples endowments where vastly OVER expected returns......i remember spending a day with an adviser when i joined the industry in the mid 90's......first visit of the day was to a bloke whos maturity was £87k on a £50k loan......we were there to invest the surplus (after he bought a new car)......next meeting was to a young couple who wanted a mortgage....they got an endowment which they were very happy with (as was the adviser who got...shock horror...paid for it).........but he belived it was the best thing for the clients based on what he knew at the time.
In 20 years when people start to die from eating food cooked in microwaves (for example) will Dixons be branded killers? no...because right now they think a microwaved burger tastes yummy.
T
why? they are in business to make money, as long as they can do so within the rules at the time they will.
worth noting that at the time many peoples endowments where vastly OVER expected returns......i remember spending a day with an adviser when i joined the industry in the mid 90's......first visit of the day was to a bloke whos maturity was £87k on a £50k loan......we were there to invest the surplus (after he bought a new car)......next meeting was to a young couple who wanted a mortgage....they got an endowment which they were very happy with (as was the adviser who got...shock horror...paid for it).........but he belived it was the best thing for the clients based on what he knew at the time.
In 20 years when people start to die from eating food cooked in microwaves (for example) will Dixons be branded killers? no...because right now they think a microwaved burger tastes yummy.
T
11 May 2005, 05:59 PM
#52
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So its absolutely nothing to do with the advisors/banks/insurance companies when it goes wrong then......is that what your saying.....
Worth noting that the same 'advice' around Endowments was given out to many in relation to Private Pensions, they are going well at the moment too. I'm not saying all Advisors/Banks/Insurance companies are crooks however they were and still are selling products that are/were in fact flawed for the use they were intended......
I guess given your rose coloured view Tiggs you're an IFA then...what else do we need to bring up...Split Capital trusts ?..snake oil investments corp.
.
The mis selling issue is a real issue about IFA's hard selling specific investments, its not just about the failure of the schemes to make any money(thats another problem that needs to be looked into). So in my humble opinion some IFA's/salesmen in these circumstance do have a responsibility
Just for the record the current trend for remortgaging with all these Ocean Finance like mobs should also be much more tightly controlled, as it stands a lot of people are likely to end up on the street if we have any interest rate hike. I can see the headlines now.
Worth noting that the same 'advice' around Endowments was given out to many in relation to Private Pensions, they are going well at the moment too. I'm not saying all Advisors/Banks/Insurance companies are crooks however they were and still are selling products that are/were in fact flawed for the use they were intended......
I guess given your rose coloured view Tiggs you're an IFA then
...what else do we need to bring up...Split Capital trusts ?..snake oil investments corp. .The mis selling issue is a real issue about IFA's hard selling specific investments, its not just about the failure of the schemes to make any money(thats another problem that needs to be looked into). So in my humble opinion some IFA's/salesmen in these circumstance do have a responsibility
Just for the record the current trend for remortgaging with all these Ocean Finance like mobs should also be much more tightly controlled, as it stands a lot of people are likely to end up on the street if we have any interest rate hike. I can see the headlines now.
11 May 2005, 07:54 PM
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I'm a bit confused here. My endowment was taken out in July 1988, so as its after 29th April I can claim. However the agent who sold us the endownment is no longer trading, so we have to goto the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. However, they dont look at claims prior to August 1988, so we appear to be stuffed! Yet, I see on here people have had compensation for endowments sold in 87! Am i missing something here?
12 May 2005, 12:09 PM
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The agent who sold me the policy was no longer trading either, go direct to the company the policy is with first, and see what they say.
Not sure about the dates and cut offs though.
Not sure about the dates and cut offs though.
12 May 2005, 04:39 PM
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In the Mail on Sunday this week, they stated that the companies will only pay compensation for the life of the mortgage it was taken out against. i.e if you took out an endowment for 25 years, re-mortgaged after 7, the compensation will only cover you for the 7 years.
As I said, this was in the paper, I am not taking any responsibilty if it isn't correct
As I said, this was in the paper, I am not taking any responsibilty if it isn't correct
13 May 2005, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by camk
Just for the record the current trend for remortgaging with all these Ocean Finance like mobs should also be much more tightly controlled, as it stands a lot of people are likely to end up on the street if we have any interest rate hike. I can see the headlines now.
The FSA took over mortgage regulation last year with a view to tightening this up. They introduced about a million new rules and every mortgage/remortgage is now acompanied by paperwork explaining everything in fine detail and giving endless warnings about what could go wrong. This sounds like a good idea, but now during the mortgage process I give some poor unsuspecting first time buyer:
Initial Disclosure Document - 3 pages
copy of fact find - 15 pages
Key features illustration for mortgage - 8 pages
statement of price for life cover - 8 pages
statement of price for buildings and contents - 4 pages
copy of mortgage application - 15 pages
mortgage offer - 10 pages
mortgage record of suitability - 4 pages
demands and needs statement for insurance - 4 pages
life policy - 20 pages
These documents will contain all possible mortgage and life cover related caveats. I have yet to find a client who is likely to read all 90 pages. I am fairly sure that if they did read every page, they would not understand it completely and they would not give full consideration to every possibility covered by the caveats. More often than not, they will look at the first page, ask me if I think everything is OK and ask me where to sign - now that no-one reads any of the paperwork companies like ocean finance are in a stronger position, as they send out pages and pages to be signed, and somewhere in the middle is the contract with the devil.
Now - who wants a jar of my invisible elephant repellant
13 May 2005, 10:58 AM
#58
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Originally Posted by Nick
The compensation offer has now been made of £4944.27. A fast & efficient service from the mortgage seller.
13 May 2005, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick
Hmm, now comes the really complex part of how to handle the shortfall!
13 May 2005, 03:24 PM
#60
Useful stuff - thanks guys...
When you take out your 1st mortgage you are usually quite young and it is the first and largest investment you make, coupled with that it often occurs with another major life upheaval - getting married - you find an advisor you trust (for whatever reason) and just let him get on with it...
It happened to us and the advisor we had was experienced, mature and told us he was working on a salary (from a professional body) not on commision...
The facts are, that if he did know what he was talking about he would not have recommended an endowment policy to us. He 'told us about the risks' but 'take home message was all about paying off the mortgage and big terminal bonuses, conservative calculations etc...
Mick
When you take out your 1st mortgage you are usually quite young and it is the first and largest investment you make, coupled with that it often occurs with another major life upheaval - getting married - you find an advisor you trust (for whatever reason) and just let him get on with it...
It happened to us and the advisor we had was experienced, mature and told us he was working on a salary (from a professional body) not on commision...
The facts are, that if he did know what he was talking about he would not have recommended an endowment policy to us. He 'told us about the risks' but 'take home message was all about paying off the mortgage and big terminal bonuses, conservative calculations etc...
Mick