highlander68k

I agree that extortionate prices have been charged in the past, and some so-called tuners will still milk you for every penny you've got with respect to tuning, servicing or repair.

There are two types of mapping IMO:

1. upload a safe(ish) map and Bob's your uncle.
2. upload a base map, spend an hour or two tweaking and Bob's your uncle.

The experienced mappers do make it look easy. But if you've done a 100 cars before, then you will know what works and what doesn't.

The con-merchants of the trade will try and make a song and dance of it. Once, I was quoted up to 3 days to map my car by my local tuner. He didn't know the Power FC at the time and wanted to charge me so he could learn how to do it. So I drove 200 miles to someone who done it in 2 hours and saved myself £1200!

Is it less reliable - who cares, it goes faster!

pbee

Pete

your a muppet end of, it is clear you have not ever had a car proffesionally remapped.

any oem map is based on a wide range of tollernaces, as an engineer you must be aware that any cheaply mass produced instrument can vary widely in performance and quality. the base maps have to cater for all of these differences and as safely as possible.

Subaru also update their maps frequently, ie take the 03 model there are numerous different revisions to the base map off the production line to introduce fixes better emissions ect, and as the maps progress they actually get simpler.

If you are having intermetant starting problems with say a 02 model and you go to the dealer it is an option for them to update the map to the latest available for that model as it is possible it is a common problem and a reflash will resolve the issue.

As for aftermarket maps, I had a problem with det and overboost and starting on my 03 with the standard map. during the re-map it was discovered to be overfuelling at certain rev ranges. The mapper actually showed me what he was doing and explained at each stage and i listened with the det-cans (frightening very frightening).

The map was updated with the code for the MY04 and then alterred further, it took nearly 2 hours to fix the issues by a very experienced mapper time a production line or qa cannot afford on a per car basis.

When the problems were sorted the boost and duty cycles were altered to improve performance. within the new safety margins set by fixing the problems with the base map for my specific car. The standard map on someone elses car could be great.

I have never had a problem with DET since car starts everytime and idles correctly, these problems were not even bothered to be properly looked at by the local subaru dealer.

pslewis

"As for aftermarket maps, I had a problem with det and overboost and starting on my 03 with the standard map. during the re-map it was discovered to be overfuelling at certain rev ranges. The mapper actually showed me what he was doing and explained at each stage and i listened with the det-cans (frightening very frightening)"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, very scary

When my brother was a motor mechanic he used to, for example, hold his hand over the oil filler hole so that the engine started squealing ....... if you knew nothing about cars then you would believe his diagnosis that the head hasket had gone!!

If your 03 car had a problem, then Subaru would have cured it under warranty .... I assume that you went to your dealer and he discovered that you were having some dreams after reading the ScoobyNet Myths about Det. and mapping cures!!??

Pete

pslewis

Pete

your a muppet end of, it is clear you have not ever had a car proffesionally remapped.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You're dead right I haven't ............ do you see the word MUG written across my forehead??

By the way, its 'PROFESSIONAL' thats 2 'S's and 1 'F' ............ there's only 1 F'in Professional around here ... and its ME!!

Pete

IN THE STICKS

Not Serious I hope

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I think you need to read that post again mate

Uncle Pete was thinking of buying a remapped car (PPP wagon). Which would normally retail at £1600... (which is not far short of 3 times what you'd pay for a reputable mapper to perform their magic on your car in a group buy, or double if you pay the full wack). I'm not doubting the quality of Prodrive's work at all, but I won't be taking my car to them.

I'm guessing Pete won't be running down the value of a good remap when it comes to selling it on though, eh Pete?

NS04

Markus

How do people know if the remap has been performed and has actually done something? Well, I suppose it depends on why you are having it remapped, if it's more more bhp and torque then I would assume most people would have a dyno plot before and after the remap, showing the differences, and one would hope, increase in both bhp and torque.

No doubt you'd argue that they could produce a 'fake' dyno report and not have changed anything.

I would assume the majority of people have a remap performed when they have made other modifications to their car, for example, induction kit and exhaust system. Why remap? Well, I'm no expert in these matters, but the ECU may learn when the fuel mixture becomes too rich or too lean and adjust itself to avoid knock, but using the default map on the ECU, it can only adjust things to a certain extent, whereas if the ECU is remapped, this range can be extended and thus even out the fuel mixture.
Of course other things can also be changed at this point, as you could increase the boost pressure to complement the richer mixture, and thus give more performance as well.

As for just remapping for fuel differences on a standard car, and not having any increase in performance, wel, I don't think i've heard of anyone doing that, apart from on a JDM car, where it's remapped to use 97/98 RON fuel instead of the 100 RON it would normally be run on in Japan, but these maps tend to also change performance as well. No doubt you'll claim that is just twaddle as well.

Adam M

to any that weren't clear,

I am very much insured with 2 policies two no claims bonusses on two cars both in my own name.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Its ok Adam, I got what you were saying.....*puts down phone to the authorities*

I thought it was a good response!!

NS04

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

LOL @ all you lot who always bite.

You make it too easy for him! Keep up the good work Pete!

IN THE STICKS

Pavlo

Pete you are so full of crap.

In case you haven't noticed there is a very successful and large corporate organisation offering remaps for UK fuel, Subaru (including IM and Prodrive).

The STI UK uses different ECU mapping to the JDM car specifically to account for differences in the local fuel (and other things besides) and of course they produce LESS power, not more. If you want a further remap, provided by Prodrive and IM in the form of the PPP you can. Traditionally the PPP gained extra power by using more ignition advance, more akin to the JDM cars, and a little more boost. If you want a PPP for the latest STI UK you will find it runs a fair bit more boost along with a little more ignition advance, which it can manage with the more advanced and powerful ECUs on the latest cars. And when the changes in the ECU are done in harmony with other popular upgrades, (sports cat and free flow exhaust for example) the results can be very good indeed.

You mention knock sensors, but completely fail to realise how they may or may not be working. On the older cars the factory knock sensor is quite deaf at high RPM as it cannot distinguish between knock and engine noise reliably enough. Although it may be listening all the time, there is no guarantee that it will be able to do anything about the problem. Older UK cars are on a tight leash as far as knock controll goes, with quite normal advance, but without much scope to advance or retard it. Whereas the JDM cars don't have much static timing, and rely more on correction, but that can go out the window if the knock sensor doesn't pick it up. And it's quite possible for a standard or near standard car to be detting it **** off and have the ECU do nothing about it. At times like this, (broken sensor, failed MAF, fuel pump, broken boost control etc) a knocklink can save and engine, although a knocklink on a well mapped car will seem almost redundant.

Once you have mapped a good variety of cars, you will realise how different they all are, and how the factory ECU needs to be as flexible as it is to accomodate this wide range of charactristics. However for someone that wants to get more out of their car safely, a remap of the factory ECU, or replacement altogether can work wonders without compromising engine reliability.

Keep your trolling misinformed opinions to yourself.

Paul

mudfrog

Fish for tea tonight Pete?

I've seen a few posts by you Pete and it always seems like you disagree with alot that is being talked about on here. And pick threads and replys to pieces. Like spelling mistakes etc...etc. I know everyone has there own opinion but can you just change the record.
If you disagree with so many of the things that are talked about on this site why not just hop along to another forum and get your rod and bait out there.

Don't forget songs of praise this Sunday

Anticipating your reply.

Cheers,

Rich

Sprint Chief

Yeah and Microsoft charge something like that same amount of money for Microsoft Office - but it only costs pence to put some data on a CD-ROM! Why do they charge so much!

Clue: If you really were an engineer Pete, you would know about NRE costs, but since you only clean the loos at AWE, you never will understand

pslewis

OK, lets agree that a re-map can show some increase on a rolling road (quite why geeks would want to gather around collecting graphs and squealing with delight at some pen squiggles amazes me somewhat, however .... ) the power might have gone up ....

If it was so easy, and it is to re-map, why wouldn't SUBARU do it as standard?? (it would add NO cost whatsoever to the price of the car!) ..............

I'll tell you why - Because it makes the car unreliable!! ..... and then you all look in horror when your Engine blows-up!!

Can you not see that you are complete and utter wallies???

Getting ripped off left, right and centre ..... just to make your driving experience go BANG!

Grow up, the lot of ya'!

Pete

bzz

I see it didn't take long for your insults to start rolling my way Pete.....
I think you should be living in the Middle Ages, as you appear to have a morbid fear of anything remotely technological!! Instead of trying to understand it all (which frankly doesn't take much effort), you prefer to pander to the idea that "It's all a conspiracy to rip us off!!", and go about insulting anyone who does give it a try. And when people actually DO get good results, (which according to you can't happen anyway), you tell us that we're all talking bollox. Have you ever tried just SHUTTING UP!!
And by the way, you seem to have an un-natural obsession with the word '****'.....did something bad happen to you in your past? There are professionals who can rip you off, oops, sorry, HELP with problems like this.....

jasonius

iTrader: (1)

FPMSL

Pavlo

But many remaps for JDM cars will reduce power, and are done for the sake of reliability.

In case you didn't notice, the PPP is current available FOC, and is fully warrantied.

On older cars, the "once size fits all" ECU is conservative, so the gains can often come makng the ECU better suited to that specific car,
without compromising reliability.

Before you continue to spread your misinformation Pete, I suggest you get yourself informed of what a remap may actually consist of.

yhe chod

its nice to have a bit of skepticism to keep things balanced and to justify things by questioning it.

i think sometimes new cars are "mapped" to get the best "on paper" figures for the EC fuel economy and emmission tests.ie to take advantage via ecu software to set up fuel injection to take advantage of the EC test cycles which are barely related to normal motoring i might add

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Paul, I wouldn't bother arguing with Pete, he doesn't want to believe that the PPP these days is little more than a re-mapped ecu carried out with software developed by a UK enthusiast, sold by a spin off from an aftermarket tuning firm (EcuTek) who Prodrive went to asking them to help develop a standard package (Tek1). I suspect he also doesn't want to hear what happens when a garage technician plugs the select monitor into his car during a service to check that all is well and then alter a few parameters if they're not...

Basically he doesn't want to hear this because he's a wind up merchant, pure and simple, I wouldn't bother getting involved any further, he's just not worth the time

ThrustSSC

Because they spent $4bn developing the software in the first place?

You spend £25k on a car that only cost £15k to manufacture. Why do you spend so much?

Clue: If you really were a finance expert, Sprint Chief, you would know about R&D costs...

ThrustSSC

Keep up the good work, Pete! It's great seeing folks taking themselves too seriously

Scratch

iTrader: (1)

All this said by a man with a standard car....

PMSL (again)

Man you crack me up

What sparked this one anyway. Have you just been too civil for the last day or so, so thought it was time to catch up on some pi$$ take ?

Sprint Chief

Sorry ThrustSSC my post was sarcastic, it was a dig at Pete, I was making the exact point you do.... "NRE costs" mean R&D costs in an engineering environment, I thought I would throw in an engineering buzz-term to catch Pete out, who claims to be an engineer whilst cleaning the loos in a certain Berkshire weapons establishment. (NRE cost="non-recurring engineering cost")

Sprint Chief

OK having read the thread more carefully I spot this:

following this:

Who is taking themselves too seriously exactly??? You couldn't make it up could you!

dpb

id remap for british fuel AND power increasing modifications.

ThrustSSC

Sorry, mate - I, too, was taking the **** Needless to say my second post is how I really think about this!

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

Can you not see he's not interested in the topic at hand. He's just after the wind up and it amazes me that people will still try and justify thing to Pete. He's so easy to see through.

ThrustSSC

But it's so funny to watch! Pete is a hero

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

I agree. sometimes he has moments of Genius! You just know he is pressing the right buttons in some people.