Jap2Scrap

I don't understand what it is that's so great about road charging that it makes you prepared to come across like a complete twát Tiggs. It's beyond me really.

Personally I'm dreading the testing starting in Leeds. I commute 40 miles a day to and from Leeds for work and before anyone says "Get a job closer," there are only three, yes 3, machines of the type I'm responsible for in the UK and only one is accessible to mere mortals such as myself. Before anyone suggests I move into Leeds, get real, it's a shíthole and way overpriced so commute I must. I already moved 225 miles to be nearer this job! On top of the 40 miles daily commute I have a 450 weekend round trip to see my daughter back nr Southampton so we're at 650 miles a week, every week, before we even start with pleasure driving. 650 miles a week for 52 weeks adds up to 33,800 miles per annum. At £1.34 a mile that's £45,000!!! Obviously I'd try and use minor roads where possible and be prudent about travelling times at weekends, so say I averaged 20p per mile, that's still £6,760.. Before I pay to fill my tank twice a week!

Christ I'm screwed. Something will have to give.

Also, where's the incentive to run an ecofriendly vehicle? If fuel duty is dramatically cut and we're all charged the same per mile why wouldn't we all run Hummers let the trees get fúcked?

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

We've already had the demographics debate; unfortunately some people seem unable to look up 'slum' in a basic school geography textbook. Nor are they able to understand that some places of work are not well served by public transport, so the companies that occupy them face bankruptcy if their staff can't drive there.

The really sad thing is that none of the proposals actually do anything at all to reduce peoples' need to travel - they only restrict or penalise people for doing so. I've pointed out before that it's lack of peak capacity rather than total capacity that causes congestion (and therefore, unnecessary pollution). Nobody queues in traffic for fun, but as long as employers are allowed to insist that people work fixed hours (even when it's not strictly necessary for their job function), we'll have two rush hours every day that make the roads grind to a halt.

Change the law to make flexi-time a legal requirement, and people can choose their working times so they miss the worst of the traffic. For some, the flexibility may not be there, but that doesn't matter if enough other people have the freedom to start and finish earlier or later. The result is that the busy periods get spread out, reducing the peaks and keeping the traffic flowing - but instead of being regulated and punished, we actually have more personal freedom too. Win/win.

That's my suggestion, any others?

Clett

They won't be allowed to track your position - the human rights lobbyists will make sure of that.

Instead, all the pricing etc will happen inside the box and the info of where you've been etc will not be transmitted anywhere. ie you won't be transmitting your location to the authorities, but the box will be totting up how much you owe. How it will be paid is a different matter - with top up vouchers etc like pay-as-you-go mobile phones maybe?

As for the speeding detection systems, the human rights lobbyists will do their best to combat that too, but the case is weaker so it may come into play. If it does, you're just likely to get fined via the box for minor offences. This whole idea of it shutting down your engine is too dangerous to implement.

Of course it would be a retrofit unit to all cars, so a green-tax credit could be applied to certain vehicles. But the big question is how could they possibly enforce it? Suppose you drive with the unit "damaged" for some time? Or should you carelessly leave a Faraday cage surrounding it?

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Get another government? Well... I can't deny that would be great - but as a population we've quite spectacularly screwed our opportunity to do that

Tiggs

hang on ********........someone has an idea....you dont like it, i say i do and i'm a ****? is this a debate or just a chance for bunch of paranoid conspiracy theorists to jack off over each others tales of pending doom?

i like the idea of charging per mile, i do few miles in a thirsty car yet pay a large amount in road tax and fuel tax as a % of my use. If i paid only per mile i would get a great deal.

i dont belive half the crap on here about the position that exists beyond road pricing (at least it exists in the minds of the posters)

if you really think a goverment could introduce the sort of big brother nonsense people are talking about then you are a ****.

T

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

I pray that you're right. However, I don't believe that justifies complacency.

Jap2Scrap

My point was, if you'll remember, that I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS THAT WAS SO GREAT ABOUT ROAD CHARGING... and it took that statement to make you finally say why you thought it was so great. I'd still say you are supremely selfish and self-centred and for all I care you can stick your big thirsty car and your idyllic, "I'm close to work and friends and family, I laugh at the poor, I'm cooler than thou and I'm holier than shít" attitude up your árse.

You did, and always do, come across as a twát.

Clarebabes

I'm getting more and more angry. It's just been on the news. Soon, we'll be so used to it coming into force, it will be almost quietly introduced

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

It'll come, AND you will have to pay fuel tax. The greens are already concerned that just a road pricing structure will not reduce bad polluting transportation. So the government will leave the fuel tax on, and then charge for all road use....great.

Oh, and the way they are going to stop you driving with a damaged box is with cameras. They are proposing to have them stationed aronud so that if you car passes a camera, and the unit is not active, then you are fined. Obvously speeding offenses will also be noted, and a bill sent.

If the above comes true I will emmigrate. Some people laugh when they hear people say that. I've been planning it for some time, may leave anyway. Totally cr*p country atm, this government needed to be shot

SlimJ_2005

Wait a minute!

If the least congested roads are only charged at 2p a mile, and the most congested roads are charged at £1.34 a mile, what will happen when the motorways are totally clear and the country lanes are heavily congested?! Surely the country lanes will become subject to higher charging and motorways less.... ???

Sorry, it won't work, it's just another stealth tax that will not save anyone any money. I currently don't have a car and use the motorbike, yes, I've used the train 4 times this year to get to Canterbury but in order to catch the train, I have to get to the station, this involves getting in a car as I don't want to walk the 4 miles in the rain!! Public transport is hopelessly inadequate and expensive (£3.50 for a 15 minute train ride off peak - single!) and until public transport is a very viable alternative, road users should not be priced off the road any more than they are now!

r32

My wife is a midwife, and guess where most hospitals are? Right in citys, we have roughly looked at what it will cost her a week to get to work (no public transport option I'm afraid, due to where we live and unsociable start times) there is no doubt she will have to give up this job, on her pay she wont be able to afford to go to work.....

I dont think this has really been thought through, what will happen to the low paid like nurses etc ...........?

Tiggs

thats ok.....your cheap nasty car, grim "miles from work", help the poor and look after the needy, paranoid attitude is pretty laughable to me. so shove that up your ****!

Leslie

Tiggs,

About time you got your brain into gear and realised what is really being set in place for the future!

Les

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

What hasn't been thought through, is that any measures which simply make travelling more difficult or expensive, still do nothing to reduce the NEED to travel.

Yes, there will be a minority of cases where it makes sense to share lifts with colleagues or put the kids on a bus. But those who advocate such measures consistently fail to present any quantitative analysis showing just what proportion of journeys could be amended in this way, or what the impact would be on businesses and on the time we have to spend with our families. (It is, of course, this 'free' time which absorbs 100% of the extra travelling time that's inherent with public transport).

My place of work is in a rural area with negligible public transport links. Staff and visitors can only get there by car. Make such travel impossible and my employer goes out of business - it's that simple.

EiW

erm...

Conservative reponse - "A road pricing scheme should be an alternative and fair way of raising revenue. Any new scheme should not be a vehicle for more stealth taxes."

Not exactly AGAINST the idea then.

Lib "left Wing" Dems - "We see it as far fairer. It taxes car usage, not ownership".

Eh? How does a flat rate pence-per-mile charge become fairer than fuel tax which costs you more for more miles in a fuel-guzzling car?

Not sure about the Greens, but I think I can probably take a punt!

BNP? UKIP? - REALLY!?!?! Vote Veritas - the future's bright, the future's orange.

EiW

How will foreign visitors clogging up the tourist routes pay? At the moment, they buy fuel so pay the tax. I don't like the level of fuel tax in this country but have to say it's a genuine pay-per-use system.

Who will police this? Who will settle disputes? An unelected quango? So who will pay for this enforcement? Or will the police spend all their time checking I have my black box instead of catching the chav scum who steal and mug?

Bad Government + Bad Opposition = Bad Policy - twas always so and still is.

Tiggs

laughable......i AM IN FAVOUR OF IT.....you may not like my opinion but please stop telling me its wrong! You have your opinion, i have mine...no big deal.

T

OllyK

One thing to remember, GPS signals have very poor penetration, it doesn't take much to stop a Road Angel etc from getting a signal and working. Just a case of adding a nice little errr, lead modification to your car that unfortunately sits right above the antenna.

I suppose they may make it that the car will not start without a GPS signal, but that's going to stuff everybody in under cover parking so I don't see that happening

The Zohan

Just a thought, assuming HGV's wil be fitted/have the same type of charging then how will it work with foreign lorries with no tracking. They can come over to the UK and fill up with cheap fuel + undercut 'home grown' logistics co's for business. Surely that is not right?

What happens when people avoid the motorways/hi charging areas and find other cheaper routes to use???

OllyK

That's happening anyway, they fuel up at Calais etc, large belly tanks, do a couple of days work in the UK, then bring a load back over for Europe and re-fuel. I bet our fuel will still be more expensive than Europe after this!

I suspect what will happen will be similar to what happened to shipping when we decided to put silly prices on all of that. The Hauliers will buy and register their trucks in Holland (many already do) and avoid the UK tax and will then also avoid the GPS nonsense.

I suspect UK car drivers will start doing the same. I'm already trying to source a small plot in France (long term retirement plot) but for now it would give me a French address to register a car at.

Exactly - it will just force the traffic from 3 lanes of properly engineered Motorway on to single carriageway backlanes causing total gridlock and wearing out the roads in no time. It will also potentially have an inflationary impact as most of our goods are transported by road. If trucks cannot deliver as much in a day, prices are likely to go up which will be re-couped by increased prices in the shops on all goods. Plus of course, trucks do a lot of miles and they tend to do them at peak times, so excpect their bill to be huge.

In short it is typical badly thought out NL policy. They have always been pro public transport and against private. They may well suceeed in forcing people out of cars, but they don't (an probably never will) have the public transport infrastructure in place to pick up the load (it can hardly cope now) and people won't be able to get (or afford) to work.

the moose

Other than the fact that there are a laughable number of right-wing conspiracy nuts trawling the pages here, has anyone other than me thought that the governement actually has a point about the congestion?

I'm not sure that road pricing is the right way to go about it, but they're stirring up a debate, which is one of the functions of government, no?

So on the basis that Britain's going to remain the same size (accurate) and the fact that as a nation we're getting a lot more cars (accurate), to which must be added the thought that no-one want to either fund or give planning permission for new roads ...... instead of just protesting, think of an alternative that tackles congestion effectively.

OllyK

It is NL policy not to build new roads, not all the other parties follow the same thinking. Some realise that you can't get a gallon in a pint pot, and you need a bigger vessle (roads).

The other problem is, much of the congestion has been artificially created. In terms of bodies moved, bus lanes are one of the most wasteful bits of road going, and by creating them, they have often halved the capacity of that road for other vehicles.

Yes we do need better public transport, I'd welcome it, but you can't start trying to force people on to a public transport system before it is operational in a meaningful manner.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

I've suggested mine (flexi-time) - I'm surprised nobody's piped up with some insurmountable problem with that yet. Maybe it would actually work?

You're right that congestion is a problem, but simply making it more expensive to travel by car doesn't do anything to reduce the actual need to travel. Nobody queues in traffic for fun, and road pricing isn't going to magically create an adequately efficient public transport network.

unclebuck

I thought it was a left wing Stalinist superstate theory. Although it's far less of a theory now.

Punative taxation on use and ownership of bloated 4 x 4 vehicles in the urban environment. Punative congestion charging for those who insist on ferrying children and teenagers to and from schools in such vehicles.

OllyK

And increased home working for those that can. I work from home now and again, and once I get the study up and running properly, I will probably work from home far more.

unclebuck

But that's the problem. Everybody, it seems, has an excuse for why it shouldn't be them that gets penalised.

These people (the 4x4 driving footballers wives types) are the most profligate and wasteful in our society so why not start with them? The problem is, if nobody is prepared to modify their behaviour than the Government will take decisions like the ones we are faced with now on our behalf.

Work from home is a great idea if you have management that is far sighted enough to allow it. Most middle management in this country as we all know is unfortunately of a low rent, low brow standard.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Hence my suggestion that employment law be modified to make the offer of flexi-time (and, I guess, home working) a mandatory requirement for employers, except in some defined cases (such as retail or shift work) where it's not possible.

OllyK

When employers suddenly find their employees coming to them saying they are going to have to give up their job because they can't afford to drive in to work and there is no public transport link that will get them to work in time, then these companies would change their views, but it's a bit too late then IMO.

Mind you if Europe gets its way you'll only be working 35 hours a week anyway.