Chip

Moses,


WTF are you on about????

scoobydooooo

i only get offended by religion when it is forced on people , which is most of the time !!

Mick

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm... this attitude amazes me. I am a christian. - yet I very rarely hear anyone mention religion outside of my church friends or programmes I choose to watch. I am astounded by all these people who claim to have religion 'ramed down their throats' or whatever the phrase of choice is -who is doing all this evangelising - well done I say... but is it happening or is it a gut reaction to try to stop people talking about religion at all?

I think the major UK religion is probably materialism.

On the MRSA thing... My father in law was a pharmacist and had developed a cure for MRSA in the lab only a few years back... - only problem is NO ONE WOULD FUND THE CLINICAL TRIALS - sorry for shouting just wanted to get the point across... - As far as I know the drug is documented in a paper somewhere just in limbo...

Unbelieveable though isn't it?

Mick

OllyK

I'm happy to discuss religion, and I frequently do here. Sadly for the most part we end up getting fundamentalists who are only intrested in screaming about accepting JC as your saviour rather than talking about the gaping holes and consistencies in every religion out there.

The few more level headed religious types out there tend to avoid discussing their religion as they know it is a "faith" and there is absolutely no logical way they can justify their position, it's futile so they don't bother.

If you actually stop for a minute and look at all the either religious programs or religious references on TV, you may be surprised. There are the obvious things like "Songs of Praise", but watch a lot of the home improvement channels (particularly US) where a group of people have slogged their guts out for a week and what do the home owners say to the crew on their return? Well it isn't "thank you guys for all your hard work", it's "thank you god for giving us this wonderful home". That kind of ingrattitude makes me sick and most religious types aren't even aware they are doing it. The other classic is "I'll pray for you"

Look at the Office for National Statistics. Results from the last census - 7 out of 10 people in the UK are white Christians.

InvisibleMan

when on holiday does anyone still follows other countries beliefs out of common courtesy? (like shown on hsbc ads or the do's & don'ts in travel programs) eg you have to cover your head or bare legs when visiting certain rome churches. You do it out of common respect even though its not your country/belief. If they live here they should follow the same common courtesy...

OllyK

Sure - and which particular tradition(s) are we expecting to be followed out of interest?

Leslie

Olly

I certainly agree with you about the examples you give in the dark ages by fundamentalist control freaks for their own purposes.. Those actions would not be supported by basic Christain ideals. These were the sort of people who would use Christianity to achieve power or riches for themselves at the expense of the people. Where do we see this now?

I was thinking of the days in the last century when this was a mainly religious country. Moral guidance was provided by parents and the schools. Children were taught responsibility for their own behaviour and towards others as well. This was based on natural law which was supported by all the religions. They also learned the discipline which is vital if people are to live together in reasonable harmony. They also learned that if they stepped outside the rules they would get a significant punishment. It was not based on a fear of eternal damnation! As they grew up this developed into a set of values on which to base their lives. Of course there were bad ones, but they soon found out the penalties for not following the rules.

My point was that the religious organisations did a good job in influencing the sensible behaviour of children in those days.

Modern secularism has taken over now and it has all gone backwards. So many children now have a charmed existence in that they are not punishable in a way that will deter them from offending and they feel they can do just what they like. Many parents have no interest in what they are doing and do not even understand the precepts of decent behaviour themselves. teachers are afraid to discipline them or are so PC themselves that they just make matters worse. certainly an example where "modernism" has failed spectacularly.

The point I made then, which is not simplistic, is that at least religion had a good influence on children in the past.

If you decry religion completely, as you are entitled to do if you wish, then you must find a way to instil the basic precepts of natural law in chidren as they grow up, or expect the consequences which do not bear thinking about.

Les

InvisibleMan

any. well the ones that are mentioned in travel books tend to have one main faith & have strict rules hence are mentioned. If you go to eg italy they will expect you to cover up else you wont be let into churches. Really isnt a big deal to comply & you will get a better reception from the locals if you at least "attempt" to blend in. I think this work in the same way with this issue. do like most of us do - believe in it read it, dont believe it leave it... dont remove our countries rights for those how believe by the ones who dont...

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

To be honest Les, if you talking within the last 100 years, I think its more to do with the cane at schools, the death penalty and all other like disciplines inbetween etc being abolished over the last 3 decades, rather than lack of religious guidence.

Fear of a clip round the ear is usually enough, but school teachers can't do that anymore, then lame punishments like "3 strikes then you might do community service" for burgulary is more the reason for the current state social morals

OllyK

For the most part we don't because the churches don't weild that kind of power any more, I have little doubt that if they had the same levels of power and influence today that they had back then, they would be equally corrupt and their methods little more pleasant.

Mind you the upper ranks of Catholic church hardly go round in rags do they?

I think you are closer to the mark with this, parents and schools ensure that kids were brought up correctly. There wasn't the same degree of PC madness that practically gives kids carte blanche to do what they like with impunity. The fact that "all" (I'd question that if I was in pedantic mood!) religions supported it, is a bonus, not a driving factor IMO.

[quote]
They also learned the discipline which is vital if people are to live together in reasonable harmony. They also learned that if they stepped outside the rules they would get a significant punishment. It was not based on a fear of eternal damnation!
[quote]

If not based on the eternal damnation (of Christian anyway) religion, then they are being taught moral guidelines within the framework of the society within which they exist, religion again is not necessarily a driver (all be it we generally accept the base moral guideline of most religions are acceptable)

I think you have just actually shown they had very little to do with it except setting out some basic moral guidlines out a few thousand years ago.

If you can show me that all the PC policies, which I believe are largely to blame for all this, were all proposed by atheists and were opposed by those with a faith, then I will accept your argument, however, I think the liberal christians may actually be palying a far bigger role in the degeneration of society than you may like to admit.

But isn't this the result of "liberalism" rather than a "loss of faith"?

I agree the 10 commandments aren't bad as a basis for moral guidelines, but other than that, I see more bad coming from religion in the past in terms of repression of science and new ideas. The Catholic "no condom" rule is doing the AIDS epidemic in Africa no favours (yes I know the counter argument)

Again - It is down to the parents as schools IMO, as you have said. Society must define and defend its own moral standards and while we all want freedom and a degree of liberalism it must not come at the expense of being able to enforce basic standards otherwise we will decend in to anarchy.

scoobydooooo

mick quote "Hmmm... this attitude amazes me. I am a christian. - yet I very rarely hear anyone mention religion outside of my church friends or programmes I choose to watch. I am astounded by all these people who claim to have religion 'ramed down their throats' or whatever the phrase of choice is "
amazes you huh !! that is a surprise !! so you haven't had a j witness knocking on your door ?? or haven't been burnt at the stake for saying that the earth orbits the sun ?? it's religion that has held man kind back for hundreds of years and is resposible for 98% of all wars , if that is not forcing it on people , fair enough !!

OllyK

I agree religion has held man back, but I disagree with it being responsible for 98% of all wars. Can you list 10 or so wars that you think were started soley on religious grounds?

scoobydooooo

i can't name 10 that weren't !!

OllyK

World War 1
World War 2
Vietnam War
Korean War
French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars
American War of Independance
American Civil War
Hundred Years War
Gulf War 1
Gulf War 2
Falklands Conflict
Boer War

There's 12 - your turn.

Jerome

On a similar vein to the bibles, this church has had it's cross removed by the council so as not to offend anyone that hasn't actually bothered to complain yet...

Pavlo

the bible is kind of odd. It has moments of clarity and common sense, and moments where you just know some dude wanted to make up some stuff in God's name. It doesn't usually offend me on it's own, but people and their interpretations can often offend.

Leslie

Well we are not that far apart Olly. If I underline that my point was based on the fact that when religions had a stronger influence in this country, and that they advocated living life in general according to natural law, which was how god fearing and morally minded parents brought their children up, then we would not have much to argue about.

The question is, how do you bring those standards back in today's secular society, and how do we get away from the chokingly evil influence of the PC brigade.

One thing I will say however, I dont believe that liberal mindedness stems from Christian or any other religious beliefs. That really is all down to the PC maniacs who come from a different background completely.

Les

OllyK

If either of us had the answer to that question, I think we would be quite wealthy

Joking aside, government needs to stop providing a "dossers" framework, the welfare state has outlived its usefulness and needs a major overhaul. It needs to be a leg up to get people supporting themself, it should not be a long term crutch for people who don't want to work. Providing cash hand outs indefinately to underage single mothers is not going to solve our teenage pregnancy issues.

The judicary needs a good shake up as well, they need to be prepared to hand out meaningful sentences and if that means we have to build a few more prisons then so be it. Likewise jail time (or at least the large proportion of it) needs to be a punishment not a holiday camp. 2/3 of the sentence doing hard graft, the last 1/3 re-training and re-habilitation.

Finally we need to be less worried about offending minorities (I don't just mean race or colour here). I'm not suggesting we pick on minorities, just don't pander to them at the expense of the rest of society.

I don't think I suggested liberalism stemmed from Christianity (although there is an element of PC in JC's teachings), however, and it may be perception here, I don't see too many muslims, bhuddists etc banging the PC drum, it is mostly whites, and most whites in this country (7 in 10) are Christian - I'd just be interested to see in the PC circles if that ratio was the same or, as I suspect, higher.

Hol

iTrader: (1)

Are you offended by the Bible

No!

Are you offended by people telling you that you are offended by something that you are not offended by:

Too damn right!

OllyK

I'm not offended by those people either. They pi$$ me off and I pity them for their simple minded view on life, but they don't offend me.

Chip

That's fine as long as the same stands for all the mosques etc that display flags, banners, religious messages outside their buildings.

Chip

OllyK

The point was the chapel is used by all faiths for funerals (although mostly christian). Hence replace the permenant cross with one that can be removed easily for non christian funerals.

I'm not saying I agree, just it isn't quite as bad as it was made out to be.

Leslie

Best idea I heard was to draw curtains over the religious symbols which were not appropriate at the time.

Les

OllyK

Not sure that would have worked outside so well though