replace MAF....part of regular maintenance
16 June 2005, 07:38 PM
#61
Scooby Regular
So, why don't the earlier cars get contaminated? Is it becuase they use Hot Wire and it burns the **** off?
I have always agreed that if you fit non-standard kit (like induction kits) then you are asking for trouble and will probably find it!
The suggestion that it should be a servicable item is, for the average owner/driver who doesn't foook about with his car, to my mind - overkill!
On the subject of the **** Oil Change, Subaru Main Dealers don't do it and we do NOT do it on our engines either.......
Pete
I have always agreed that if you fit non-standard kit (like induction kits) then you are asking for trouble and will probably find it!
The suggestion that it should be a servicable item is, for the average owner/driver who doesn't foook about with his car, to my mind - overkill!
On the subject of the **** Oil Change, Subaru Main Dealers don't do it and we do NOT do it on our engines either.......
Pete
16 June 2005, 08:15 PM
#62
Originally Posted by pslewis
So, why don't the.............
I have always agreed that if.............
The suggestion that it.................
On the subject of.......
Pete
16 June 2005, 11:09 PM
#63
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Both MAF failures I've seen were on cars with standard induction.
One was definately an engine saver because the guy drives like a loon with little mechanical sympathy, and the ecu was already pulling 5 degrees out every where on boost.
He noted that the car had felt quicker over the preceeding weeks.
Here endeth the lesson...
One was definately an engine saver because the guy drives like a loon with little mechanical sympathy, and the ecu was already pulling 5 degrees out every where on boost.
He noted that the car had felt quicker over the preceeding weeks.
Here endeth the lesson...
17 June 2005, 08:38 AM
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Pete
Yes the earlier cars have a different MAF sensor and are more tolerant to contamination. Suabru actually applied a tighter standard for particulate filtration for the 99MY cars for this very reason, that's why we stopped using the Ramair filter as part of our performance package.
Ref the service item comment, if you have got to 60,000 miles without an issue on the original MAF, you are now out of warranty so do you want to spend £70 now or risk £3k later. Think of it as preventative maintenance.... I too have seen engine failures due to contaminated MAF at much less than 30,000 miles, never mind 60,000.
Getting oil pressure up before the bearings see combustion pressure on them is just good practice, perhaps not 100% necessary on a road engine, but it's down to whoever is doing the job if they feel they want to make the effort. If it is your own baby and you are prepared to do the job properly, why not?
Mike
Yes the earlier cars have a different MAF sensor and are more tolerant to contamination. Suabru actually applied a tighter standard for particulate filtration for the 99MY cars for this very reason, that's why we stopped using the Ramair filter as part of our performance package.
Ref the service item comment, if you have got to 60,000 miles without an issue on the original MAF, you are now out of warranty so do you want to spend £70 now or risk £3k later. Think of it as preventative maintenance.... I too have seen engine failures due to contaminated MAF at much less than 30,000 miles, never mind 60,000.
Getting oil pressure up before the bearings see combustion pressure on them is just good practice, perhaps not 100% necessary on a road engine, but it's down to whoever is doing the job if they feel they want to make the effort. If it is your own baby and you are prepared to do the job properly, why not?
Mike
17 June 2005, 12:02 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by MikeWood
Pete
Yes the earlier cars have a different MAF sensor and are more tolerant to contamination. Suabru actually applied a tighter standard for particulate filtration for the 99MY cars for this very reason, that's why we stopped using the Ramair filter as part of our performance package.
Ref the service item comment, if you have got to 60,000 miles without an issue on the original MAF, you are now out of warranty so do you want to spend £70 now or risk £3k later. Think of it as preventative maintenance.... I too have seen engine failures due to contaminated MAF at much less than 30,000 miles, never mind 60,000.
Getting oil pressure up before the bearings see combustion pressure on them is just good practice, perhaps not 100% necessary on a road engine, but it's down to whoever is doing the job if they feel they want to make the effort. If it is your own baby and you are prepared to do the job properly, why not?
Mike
Yes the earlier cars have a different MAF sensor and are more tolerant to contamination. Suabru actually applied a tighter standard for particulate filtration for the 99MY cars for this very reason, that's why we stopped using the Ramair filter as part of our performance package.
Ref the service item comment, if you have got to 60,000 miles without an issue on the original MAF, you are now out of warranty so do you want to spend £70 now or risk £3k later. Think of it as preventative maintenance.... I too have seen engine failures due to contaminated MAF at much less than 30,000 miles, never mind 60,000.
Getting oil pressure up before the bearings see combustion pressure on them is just good practice, perhaps not 100% necessary on a road engine, but it's down to whoever is doing the job if they feel they want to make the effort. If it is your own baby and you are prepared to do the job properly, why not?
Mike
17 June 2005, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeWood
Pete
Yes the earlier cars have a different MAF sensor and are more tolerant to contamination. Suabru actually applied a tighter standard for particulate filtration for the 99MY cars for this very reason, that's why we stopped using the Ramair filter as part of our performance package.
Ref the service item comment, if you have got to 60,000 miles without an issue on the original MAF, you are now out of warranty so do you want to spend £70 now or risk £3k later. Think of it as preventative maintenance.... I too have seen engine failures due to contaminated MAF at much less than 30,000 miles, never mind 60,000.
Getting oil pressure up before the bearings see combustion pressure on them is just good practice, perhaps not 100% necessary on a road engine, but it's down to whoever is doing the job if they feel they want to make the effort. If it is your own baby and you are prepared to do the job properly, why not?
Mike
Yes the earlier cars have a different MAF sensor and are more tolerant to contamination. Suabru actually applied a tighter standard for particulate filtration for the 99MY cars for this very reason, that's why we stopped using the Ramair filter as part of our performance package.
Ref the service item comment, if you have got to 60,000 miles without an issue on the original MAF, you are now out of warranty so do you want to spend £70 now or risk £3k later. Think of it as preventative maintenance.... I too have seen engine failures due to contaminated MAF at much less than 30,000 miles, never mind 60,000.
Getting oil pressure up before the bearings see combustion pressure on them is just good practice, perhaps not 100% necessary on a road engine, but it's down to whoever is doing the job if they feel they want to make the effort. If it is your own baby and you are prepared to do the job properly, why not?
Mike
Always nice to hear a viewpoint from Mike. Thanks for making the effort!
NS04
17 June 2005, 05:24 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by MikeWood
Pete
If it is your own baby and you are prepared to do the job properly, why not?
Mike
If it is your own baby and you are prepared to do the job properly, why not?
Mike
1. Drain Oil
2. Replace Filter (no need to fill!) ..... this is where I deviate from doing the job properly, but thats my personal **** contribution (I always fill my filter)
3. Refil with quality Oil
4. Start Engine
5. Check for leaks
6. Re-check level ............ END
This IS the proper way .................. the **** way is NOT!
FACT
OR are you suggesting SUBARU do not know how their cars should be serviced?? I and Subaru (one would assume) would be MOST interested in your reply
Pete
ps. Do you suggest we all soak our filters overnight as one poster advocates?? This, to him, is the PROPER way to do things ............ I would hope that you agree its totally beyond reason (but, in the same way, I, along with Subaru - view the CrankSensor removal as absolute TOSH!)
Last edited by pslewis; 17 June 2005 at 05:31 PM.
17 June 2005, 06:47 PM
#68
Originally Posted by pslewis
IOR are you suggesting SUBARU do not know how their cars should be serviced?? I and Subaru (one would assume) would be MOST interested in your reply
Pete
ps. Do you suggest we all soak our filters overnight as one poster advocates?? This, to him, is the PROPER way to do things ............ I would hope that you agree its totally beyond reason (but, in the same way, I, along with Subaru - view the CrankSensor removal as absolute TOSH!)
Pete
ps. Do you suggest we all soak our filters overnight as one poster advocates?? This, to him, is the PROPER way to do things ............ I would hope that you agree its totally beyond reason (but, in the same way, I, along with Subaru - view the CrankSensor removal as absolute TOSH!)
The reason for preparing the filter the night before is, I'll probably forget in the morning and it's sitting ready for when I get home, drain the hot oil, drop the old filter. It takes a few minutes, (like watching a kettle boil) for all the air to be displaced in the filter and as I have only a dusty, gritty, gravel drive to work on, I like to minimise the exposure time of anything 'internal'
Gerry
PS I notice your still handing out PS Lewis style advise to unsuspecting owners.
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=435183
17 June 2005, 07:37 PM
#69
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Replied on the other thread, Bob and Mike have also probably covered it but heres my 2p worth.
In the majority of MAF failures, 99/00 UK and Sti5/6 in particular, the sensitivity of the sensor is reduced. This means low flow reads as not so low and high flow reads as not so high.
At low flow such as at idle, you MAY get a slightly uneven idle for a short period whilst the ECU automatically adjusts the closed loop fueling to match the revised airflow.
Anyone ever had the idle stumble slightly and then fix itself ? I know I have.
In the midrange flow area, all is well and you can go about normal cruise with no issues.
In the highrange (on boost) flow area, closed loop fuel control is deactivated and the ECU applies the fuel/ignition from the fixed maps. This is where the problems really begin.
The measured airflow from the failing MAF sensor is less than actual airflow so the ECU adds less fuel, in turn causing higher combustion temperatures. The car feels like it runs really well as the leaner mix is good for power !
The ignition timing applied is however more advanced than ideal as the ECU thinks the loading per cylinder is less.
At this point, one of two things can happen.
1 - The engine knocks (detonation) the knock sensor doesn't hear it and piston/big-end damage occurs fairly quickly. This detonation is normally inaudible inside the car, especially if it has an aftermarket exhaust.
Or 2 - The engine knocks, the knock sensor hears it and the ECU retards the ignition timing, this causes a rise in exhaust gas temperature which in conjunction with the weak fuel mixture can cause overheating of the piston crown. This in turn can either melt the piston crown causing piston failure or cause the piston to pick up (partially sieze) in the bore, overloading the big ends causing failure.
Option 2 gives absolutely no audible warning prior to failure.
Andy
In the majority of MAF failures, 99/00 UK and Sti5/6 in particular, the sensitivity of the sensor is reduced. This means low flow reads as not so low and high flow reads as not so high.
At low flow such as at idle, you MAY get a slightly uneven idle for a short period whilst the ECU automatically adjusts the closed loop fueling to match the revised airflow.
Anyone ever had the idle stumble slightly and then fix itself ? I know I have.
In the midrange flow area, all is well and you can go about normal cruise with no issues.
In the highrange (on boost) flow area, closed loop fuel control is deactivated and the ECU applies the fuel/ignition from the fixed maps. This is where the problems really begin.
The measured airflow from the failing MAF sensor is less than actual airflow so the ECU adds less fuel, in turn causing higher combustion temperatures. The car feels like it runs really well as the leaner mix is good for power !
The ignition timing applied is however more advanced than ideal as the ECU thinks the loading per cylinder is less.
At this point, one of two things can happen.
1 - The engine knocks (detonation) the knock sensor doesn't hear it and piston/big-end damage occurs fairly quickly. This detonation is normally inaudible inside the car, especially if it has an aftermarket exhaust.
Or 2 - The engine knocks, the knock sensor hears it and the ECU retards the ignition timing, this causes a rise in exhaust gas temperature which in conjunction with the weak fuel mixture can cause overheating of the piston crown. This in turn can either melt the piston crown causing piston failure or cause the piston to pick up (partially sieze) in the bore, overloading the big ends causing failure.
Option 2 gives absolutely no audible warning prior to failure.
Andy
17 June 2005, 08:07 PM
#70
Scooby Regular
Everyone is handing out advice .... my advice is as sound as anyone elses IMO!!
A lot of myths are spread about on here, I am trying my best to put a slowing brake on them as scaring people does no good whatsoever!!
Everything is blamed on the MAF .... it's ridiculous!
I agree that anyone with issues should take their car to a dealer, but the dealer is hardly likely to NOT sell you a MAF Sensor if you tell him you think its the MAF, is he??
he will advice a re-map and sell you a CockLink MK2 as well!!
Pete
A lot of myths are spread about on here, I am trying my best to put a slowing brake on them as scaring people does no good whatsoever!!
Everything is blamed on the MAF .... it's ridiculous!
I agree that anyone with issues should take their car to a dealer, but the dealer is hardly likely to NOT sell you a MAF Sensor if you tell him you think its the MAF, is he??
he will advice a re-map and sell you a CockLink MK2 as well!!Pete
17 June 2005, 08:35 PM
#71
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Even a Knocklink will not save you from a failing maf but a simple voltmeter across your lambda sensor may do so.
As long as your O2 voltage on boost remains unchanged from day to day it's fair to say you are not approaching meltdown
As long as your O2 voltage on boost remains unchanged from day to day it's fair to say you are not approaching meltdown
17 June 2005, 08:44 PM
#72
Scooby Regular
Interesting, anyone make a voltmeter for the Lambda??
This could be a bigger money spinner than the MAF replacement game and CockLink scam!!
I could call it the "Anti Meltown Rally Device" - start some scare stories and watch the petrified send their money to me!! Sweet!!
Pete
This could be a bigger money spinner than the MAF replacement game and CockLink scam!!
I could call it the "Anti Meltown Rally Device" - start some scare stories and watch the petrified send their money to me!!
Sweet!! Pete
17 June 2005, 09:21 PM
#74
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by john banks
Yes, it is called a lambdalink, or if you are cheap I posted a DIY design for £10 a few years back.
At last, something I can get excited about!!
The Lambda Sensor is monitoring the gas after the event so, probably, better than a CockLink??
Pete
17 June 2005, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
NOW we are talking!!!
At last, something I can get excited about!!
The Lambda Sensor is monitoring the gas after the event so, probably, better than a CockLink??
Pete
At last, something I can get excited about!!
The Lambda Sensor is monitoring the gas after the event so, probably, better than a CockLink??
Pete
In fact its far worse than the KnockLink which doesn't normally illuminate unless there's a problem. The LambdaLink does a disco impression all the time
17 June 2005, 11:29 PM
#76
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by Graz
Still looks like a set of traffic lights stuck to your dash though so it rules it out for you In fact its far worse than the KnockLink which doesn't normally illuminate unless there's a problem. The LambdaLink does a disco impression all the time
In fact its far worse than the KnockLink which doesn't normally illuminate unless there's a problem. The LambdaLink does a disco impression all the time CockLink detects Knock .... so, it depends where its sited, it also picks up everything from your belt buckle clanking on the seat belt to the clock ticking ...... I've just read somewhere else that people who get RED lights are told to turn the CockLink sensitivity down until it lights as one would wish it did ............ so, thats about as useful as a friggin choclate frying pan!!
The Lambda sensor voltage isn't affected by stuff thats not related to what its measuring!!
I don't know - am I the ONLY brainy one on here??
Pete
17 June 2005, 11:40 PM
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Knocklink on maximum sensitivity on a factory engine may well show nothing until 5000-6000 RPM when the bottom green light flickers, and then at about 7000 RPM the second green light flickers. It is quite discriminatory as there should be little else on a typical factory engine, even heavily tuned that will illuminate beyond this, and most detonation that has the potential to do damage should do so.
The lambda sensor installed on the car is actually affected by stuff not related to what it is measuring - it has a very non-linear response only designed to show stoichiometric mixture. It is affected by exhaust back pressure, atmospheric pressure and exhaust gas temperature quite dramatically when not measuring stoich. Stoich is not very relevant for full load performance.
The discerning will not confuse ignorant cynicism with intelligence.
The lambda sensor installed on the car is actually affected by stuff not related to what it is measuring - it has a very non-linear response only designed to show stoichiometric mixture. It is affected by exhaust back pressure, atmospheric pressure and exhaust gas temperature quite dramatically when not measuring stoich. Stoich is not very relevant for full load performance.
The discerning will not confuse ignorant cynicism with intelligence.
17 June 2005, 11:51 PM
#78
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Agree with JB regards the lambda voltage variation although consider it can still be used to compare 'like for like' situations and will highlight any change.
It is this change we need to look out for, not so much any absolute values.
Andy
It is this change we need to look out for, not so much any absolute values.
Andy
17 June 2005, 11:56 PM
#79
Scooby Regular
Everyone says that an Engine running lean will kill it, that would give 0 volts on the Lambda. Running rich would give 1 volt.
I would therefore think that its a better indication of the MAF being wrong than a CockLink!?
Now it gets interesting. Normal lambda sensors are so called narrow band and have one major flaw. They only indicate that you are running rich or lean but they can't tell you how rich or how lean. This is because when you get outside the stoichiometric AFR (14.7 air to fuel ratio) the sensor output voltage rises or drops dramatically making it very difficult to see exactly where on the curve you are.
So? how does this LambdaLink work?? We really need a wide band sensor. This is a 5 wire sensor, which has a built in oxygen pump and heater circuit to achieve a very low change in output voltage even outside the stoich area. So what's the catch? There is only ONE wide band sensor. It's made by NGK/NTK/BOSCH (all the same sensor).
Pete
I would therefore think that its a better indication of the MAF being wrong than a CockLink!?
Now it gets interesting. Normal lambda sensors are so called narrow band and have one major flaw. They only indicate that you are running rich or lean but they can't tell you how rich or how lean. This is because when you get outside the stoichiometric AFR (14.7 air to fuel ratio) the sensor output voltage rises or drops dramatically making it very difficult to see exactly where on the curve you are.
So? how does this LambdaLink work?? We really need a wide band sensor. This is a 5 wire sensor, which has a built in oxygen pump and heater circuit to achieve a very low change in output voltage even outside the stoich area. So what's the catch? There is only ONE wide band sensor. It's made by NGK/NTK/BOSCH (all the same sensor).
Pete
17 June 2005, 11:57 PM
#80
i noticed a change in my afr readings just before the engine went bang!
Didnt have a KL at the time but wish i had as the engine died due to det. had a bad map installed.
Have a z4 map now and the kl shows only the odd green on max sensitivity.
Good investment on a JAP car i think
Didnt have a KL at the time but wish i had as the engine died due to det. had a bad map installed.
Have a z4 map now and the kl shows only the odd green on max sensitivity.
Good investment on a JAP car i think
Originally Posted by Andy.F
Agree with JB regards the lambda voltage variation although consider it can still be used to compare 'like for like' situations and will highlight any change.
It is this change we need to look out for, not so much any absolute values.
Andy
It is this change we need to look out for, not so much any absolute values.
Andy
18 June 2005, 12:45 AM
#81
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Originally Posted by pslewis
There is only ONE wide band sensor. It's made by NGK/NTK/BOSCH (all the same sensor).
Pete
Pete
2001 onwards cars have an onboard 'type' of wideband sensor and will report a CEL if they run lean on full boost.
Andy
18 June 2005, 08:40 AM
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I run one all the time Pete. It has saved my engine when a fuel pressure regulator failed as the fuel pressure dropped slightly - not enough to make it run rough though, the fuel pressure gauge also told me this. Car felt fine, but running 13:1 AFR on full boost is not good, it would melt something.
You could argue that a standard car should not need it, however, I looked at a well maintained standard car that had a failing fuel pump and it just ran lean, ECU did nothing about it.
You could argue that a standard car should not need it, however, I looked at a well maintained standard car that had a failing fuel pump and it just ran lean, ECU did nothing about it.
22 June 2005, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
I 'think' you'll find that the MY99 and MY00 Impreza MAFs use thick film technology - I may be wrong, but I think I'm right?
No heated wire there then, it's a resistive-temperature device(RTD) and the resistor technologies employed in these temperature sensing devices are either platinum films or proprietary nickel thin film materials.
Pete
No heated wire there then, it's a resistive-temperature device(RTD) and the resistor technologies employed in these temperature sensing devices are either platinum films or proprietary nickel thin film materials.
Pete
And what happens when a thin film starts to breakdown? its electrical properties change and it doesnt work in the same way.
23 June 2005, 08:58 AM
#84
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by nsld
So let me guess, the rate of air flow/and/ pr temp changes the resistivity of the film? and dont these items corrode or breakdown?
And what happens when a thin film starts to breakdown? its electrical properties change and it doesnt work in the same way.
And what happens when a thin film starts to breakdown? its electrical properties change and it doesnt work in the same way.
And the Subaru Designers are the people I listen to ................ strange as that may seem, I consider their opinions on their car slightly above someone on an internet BBS who I have never met
Pete
23 June 2005, 09:11 AM
#85
Originally Posted by pslewis
And then the Subaru Designers will tell the system to show a CEL .... it not hard, its not complicated, its standard design practice.
And the Subaru Designers are the people I listen to ................ strange as that may seem, I consider their opinions on their car slightly above someone on an internet BBS who I have never met
Pete
And the Subaru Designers are the people I listen to ................ strange as that may seem, I consider their opinions on their car slightly above someone on an internet BBS who I have never met
Pete
23 June 2005, 01:48 PM
#86
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by Houghton
But if the MAF's giving a false, low, signal but still within the parameters that the ecu reads as plausible, it'll fuel according to that signal.
And if it IS within the parameters and the ECU can read and understand then it will adapt accordingly - the engine will be very safe.
If the reading is outside the parameters then a CEL will show and/or the boost will be limited and limp home mode may also be activated.
What the argument is, is this:- ""The MAF 'drifts' out of tolerance and the ECU doesn't realise it has and then blows your engine big time""
As you know, I don't believe that - I think that MAF myth and ECU scare is the result of some well meaning but misguided hobbyists.
Pete
23 June 2005, 02:08 PM
#87
Famous last words:
"What do you mean we're sinking? We only hit an iceberg! I have it on good authority from the designers of this ship that it's unsinkable. Now then, run along and re-arrange those deck chairs"
Aye Aye Capt. Lewis
"What do you mean we're sinking? We only hit an iceberg! I have it on good authority from the designers of this ship that it's unsinkable. Now then, run along and re-arrange those deck chairs"
Aye Aye Capt. Lewis
23 June 2005, 02:18 PM
#88
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"What do you mean we're sinking? We only hit an iceberg! I have it on good authority from the designers of this ship that it's unsinkable. Now then, run along and re-arrange those deck chairs"
Aye Aye Capt. Lewis
Aye Aye Capt. Lewis
Some of these 'misguided hobbyists' have worked with subaru's for many years so I know who I am going to believe 
Cheers
24 June 2005, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
And then the Subaru Designers will tell the system to show a CEL .... it not hard, its not complicated, its standard design practice.
And the Subaru Designers are the people I listen to ................ strange as that may seem, I consider their opinions on their car slightly above someone on an internet BBS who I have never met
Pete
And the Subaru Designers are the people I listen to ................ strange as that may seem, I consider their opinions on their car slightly above someone on an internet BBS who I have never met
Pete
Years ago I had a similar issue with a PUG 205 1.9 GTI and the airflow meter on that was a moving gate, that got dirty, went out of sync and the engine idled at 3000 rpm still no engine lights on that either. (Cheaper to fix as well, just needed cleaning)
I did get the CEl light to come on by disconnecting the MAF and then starting the engine, so I dont think that the ECU is as "clever" as you seem to think. It knows when the MAF signal is not there but it doesnt know when its defective until it fails to give any signal.
I to am not convinced that MAF failure makes your engine blow up, more likely its ignoring the fact that the car is not running properly and driving like tw*t that does that.
24 June 2005, 12:37 AM
#90
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by nsld
I to am not convinced that MAF failure makes your engine blow up, more likely its ignoring the fact that the car is not running properly and driving like tw*t that does that.
Pete