Fuel blockade: Well Done Those Men!
13 September 2000, 01:54 PM
#121
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Bluds
Me and Gezzer don't go in for that sort of thing.
Anyway I have been well informed that the smiley you put on your last post was actually a digitally enhanced picture of you, not my taste.
Geez
On a serious note, you are in a minority for not supporting the Blockade. 89% of th enation can't be that wrong
Me and Gezzer don't go in for that sort of thing.
Anyway I have been well informed that the smiley you put on your last post was actually a digitally enhanced picture of you, not my taste.
Geez
On a serious note, you are in a minority for not supporting the Blockade. 89% of th enation can't be that wrong
13 September 2000, 01:56 PM
#122
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I've read absolutely loads of stuff written by the pro-tax/anti protest over the past few days on this and various other BBs, newspapers etc.
My opinion has been corrected and modified on certain points and I don't mind admitting so
.
But absolutely NOTHING has changed my opinion on the most fundamental concept that we must not lose sight of :
80%+ Fuel Tax is just not fair.
NO-ONE has offered anything to sway my opinion on this.
My opinion has been corrected and modified on certain points and I don't mind admitting so
.But absolutely NOTHING has changed my opinion on the most fundamental concept that we must not lose sight of :
80%+ Fuel Tax is just not fair.
NO-ONE has offered anything to sway my opinion on this.
13 September 2000, 05:20 PM
#123
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by adamson:
<B>S,
You can't have your cake and eat it!!!
As long as other people are being inconveninced that's fine, but not me!
[/quote]
Nope, I didn't agree with the boycott in the first place. I agree with the motives and sentiment wholehartedly (SP?), but I think the action taken is shortsighted and fruitless. Who gets hurt? The Government? Or people on low wages who now can't get to work and won't get paid? I think the answer to that one is obvious...
S
<B>S,
You can't have your cake and eat it!!!
As long as other people are being inconveninced that's fine, but not me!
[/quote]
Nope, I didn't agree with the boycott in the first place. I agree with the motives and sentiment wholehartedly (SP?), but I think the action taken is shortsighted and fruitless. Who gets hurt? The Government? Or people on low wages who now can't get to work and won't get paid? I think the answer to that one is obvious...
S
13 September 2000, 05:51 PM
#124
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S,
The government is not listening to the democratic voice of the people of this country. I agree that the situation is not ideal, but if the government doesn't listen, people get sick of talking!
I consider this protest to be in the same league as the Poll Tax riots. The government will have to give way at some point.
Tony blair has the power to resolve this, but won't. As it drags on, he is becoming more and more damaged.
If parliament is recalled, it wouldn't suprise me if the Tories tried to introduce a Vote of [No]Confidence in the HoC.
Craig.
The government is not listening to the democratic voice of the people of this country. I agree that the situation is not ideal, but if the government doesn't listen, people get sick of talking!
I consider this protest to be in the same league as the Poll Tax riots. The government will have to give way at some point.
Tony blair has the power to resolve this, but won't. As it drags on, he is becoming more and more damaged.
If parliament is recalled, it wouldn't suprise me if the Tories tried to introduce a Vote of [No]Confidence in the HoC.
Craig.
13 September 2000, 11:55 PM
#126
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Geezer says
"ANyway, they should have saved up some of those huge subsidies that the EU have given them over the last 30 years for growing food that nobody wants "
Food nobody wants ? how soon we forget that sentiment when the supermarket shelves are bare . you can live without petrol , but I've yet to meet anybody who looks good on no food
on the subject of red Diesel , its use is of course very widespread outside agriculture , much to the annoyance of the revenue
I heard a story today of a breakers yard where they never have to buy petrol for thier own cars , as all cars for breaking have some in the tank , however they have to buy Derv for the truck because 70% of Diesel Vehicles that come in are pink or red fueled !
"ANyway, they should have saved up some of those huge subsidies that the EU have given them over the last 30 years for growing food that nobody wants "
Food nobody wants ? how soon we forget that sentiment when the supermarket shelves are bare . you can live without petrol , but I've yet to meet anybody who looks good on no food
on the subject of red Diesel , its use is of course very widespread outside agriculture , much to the annoyance of the revenue
I heard a story today of a breakers yard where they never have to buy petrol for thier own cars , as all cars for breaking have some in the tank , however they have to buy Derv for the truck because 70% of Diesel Vehicles that come in are pink or red fueled !
14 September 2000, 08:46 AM
#127
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Speaking for myself and Blubs, we could happily go without food for several months and live well on our emourmous reserves of fat.
Besides we could always eat Geezer and Scott after one of our 'sessions'.
Besides we could always eat Geezer and Scott after one of our 'sessions'.
14 September 2000, 09:27 AM
#128
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Well, it's all over now, at least for the area I'm in. Brynle Williams lives in the same village as me, so when I found out where he lives, I'm going to blockade the tw@ts house for a week!
Geezer
Geezer
14 September 2000, 03:09 PM
#130
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Yeah. Those clever boys at Esso have just bumped the fuel price up by another 4p, which has made a few protesters a bit cross.
Anyone see President Blairs on the lunchtime news? Bit of a change of tone - no more tough guy act. BTW, it's still OPEC and the oil companies' fault, nothing to do with him of course. W4 NKR.
Anyone see President Blairs on the lunchtime news? Bit of a change of tone - no more tough guy act. BTW, it's still OPEC and the oil companies' fault, nothing to do with him of course. W4 NKR.
14 September 2000, 05:11 PM
#131
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I've not read through all of these, so pardon me if I'm treading old ground...
The problem is - taxing petrol is a method of indirect taxation. It works because the demand for petrol is relatively inelastic - in non-economist speak, it's a commodity whose demand isn't greatly affected by changes in price.
Governments like these type of products - cigarettes being another example - because they can raise the taxation level and still retain demand - and hence consumption of that product.
I'm not going to get into politics because it's irrelevant to this point. The problem is this - since this type of tax is not related to income, it will ALWAYS hit the lower income earners. A bloke earning 10 grand a week pays the same for his petrol as a bloke earning 10 grand a year.
If we want taxation on petrol to come down, we need to accept the burden of taxation will fall elsewhere. Direct, income based taxation is the most likely place.
There are losers no matter what system is adopted. Sorry......no answers here. But there is a choice...
The problem is - taxing petrol is a method of indirect taxation. It works because the demand for petrol is relatively inelastic - in non-economist speak, it's a commodity whose demand isn't greatly affected by changes in price.
Governments like these type of products - cigarettes being another example - because they can raise the taxation level and still retain demand - and hence consumption of that product.
I'm not going to get into politics because it's irrelevant to this point. The problem is this - since this type of tax is not related to income, it will ALWAYS hit the lower income earners. A bloke earning 10 grand a week pays the same for his petrol as a bloke earning 10 grand a year.
If we want taxation on petrol to come down, we need to accept the burden of taxation will fall elsewhere. Direct, income based taxation is the most likely place.
There are losers no matter what system is adopted. Sorry......no answers here. But there is a choice...
14 September 2000, 06:16 PM
#132
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Oz...
Why do you take the view that this money has to come from somewhere. THis simply isn't true. This somewhere increases every year and erodes into our profits or disposable incomes. This shouldn't happen. The government don't need more money year on tear. Why should Petrol be double that of 10 years ago. It's because the Government keep wasting our money on ridiculous projects and "improvements" which nobody wants. They keep WASTING the money and that is why they need to rip us off blind to cover up for their **** ups and all the wasted money. So NO, it should not have to come from elsewhere, and surely this is the broader picture behind these protests. Things have to change, because as it is the government are taxing us out of our spending money so that we are effectively becoming slaves of the government...
To conclude, I quote William Hague who made me laugh this evening; "Why is it that everytime labour come into power the country grinds to a halt???"
He does have a point!!
Nito
Why do you take the view that this money has to come from somewhere. THis simply isn't true. This somewhere increases every year and erodes into our profits or disposable incomes. This shouldn't happen. The government don't need more money year on tear. Why should Petrol be double that of 10 years ago. It's because the Government keep wasting our money on ridiculous projects and "improvements" which nobody wants. They keep WASTING the money and that is why they need to rip us off blind to cover up for their **** ups and all the wasted money. So NO, it should not have to come from elsewhere, and surely this is the broader picture behind these protests. Things have to change, because as it is the government are taxing us out of our spending money so that we are effectively becoming slaves of the government...
To conclude, I quote William Hague who made me laugh this evening; "Why is it that everytime labour come into power the country grinds to a halt???"
He does have a point!!
Nito
14 September 2000, 09:22 PM
#133
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Ok, Im get ready for being flamed
Firstly, William Hague is a bigger embarressment than Tony Blair, the man makes me cringe. The Tory party are not a magical solution to anything - in fact they have been a big cause of this countries problem.
Yes fuel is more expensive because it is taxed to high. But as someone has already said money for paying for stuff needs to come from somewhere. Ive seen some pretty lame complaints about how this goverment is "wasting money". Well I guess it must be wasting money on the NHS - but thats just fine by me - put another 5 pence on the litre - dont expect instant results, 15 years of waste cant be repaired for years. In general they arent spending as much money on stupid stuff - like handouts to those lazy ******* that cant be bothered to get out of bed but can afford to go drinking on my taxes.
A car like the Scooby where the needle drops a quarter of tank everytime you look out the front window is not a car that uses fossil fuels sensibly. If people are worried about fuel costs they ought to think a little about what they drive. I drive a Scooby I and expect to pay for it - sacrifices will need to be made for me to do so.
The increasing heavy traffic on the roads dictates that something needs to be done. Building more roads isnt the answer, (to pre-empt any bright sparks), as England is a sufficiently small country (almost the same polulation as France with half the land mass) to make it near impossible to do much more other than building a few more bi-passes (well unless you buildose our cities etc - nice thought though). For that reason alone I would put another 10 pence on the litre, that way I could drive around in my Scooby with less traffic
Taxing the fuel will encourage other forms of traffic to become a viable solution. Currently they are not and no-one wants invest more money in public transport if there is belief that people are going to go around by car. If its cheaper to move goods by other form of transport than road then good ! not much fun if you are a trucker but it maybe worth seeing if there are jobs on the rails instead.
Petrol in Europe is cheaper, but then, like in France, you have road tolls. Great ?. They also have high taxations in Europe.
Cars are a luxury. Not long ago people would have one car per household. Now people have as many or sometimes more cars than there are people. During school holidays in the summer driving to work is a pleasure, but come school terms every mother has to drive their kids 1/2 - 1 mile to school. (Ive seen someone actually stop to let the kids out in front of school and drive 400 yards into their drive in a people carrier on a nice day !!!)
Then we have the farmers, or more importantly the idiots that have been protesting. Fuel for farming doesnt come under the same taxation as we do - its cheaper. One farmer with a supernova brain last night said "We need cheaper fuel, more specifically the goverment needs to reduce taxes on fuel". But his farming fuel hasnt got particularly high tax, so surely he should be asking the petrol companies to reduce there fuel costs as he will then get maximum amount of saving. Dooohhhhhhh
If farmers have a problem with their living it isnt because of fuel. If there living isnt drawing enough to pay for fuel for domestic uses then tough, join the rest of the country.
The master counter-argument to all that I have said, "ah yes but we cant all walk or use public transport. What about those people in the country ?" Everything is lifestyle choice. Fuel is a limited resource.
Christ I sound like a Green - arrrghhhh
The protestors have been the truckers and the farmers. Hopefully you've read my case that the truckers are trying to look after their jobs - they dont want stuff moving off the roads - BUT I DO, the farmers dont understand why they are protesting.
And the British public ? - well we all like something for nothing.
The goverment ? they havnt backed down - good I dont want some weak goverment. The French buckled, the Belgians havent.
Reading this BBS I cant see any like minded people so I guess I am alone - best put the flame suit on
bkar
Firstly, William Hague is a bigger embarressment than Tony Blair, the man makes me cringe. The Tory party are not a magical solution to anything - in fact they have been a big cause of this countries problem.
Yes fuel is more expensive because it is taxed to high. But as someone has already said money for paying for stuff needs to come from somewhere. Ive seen some pretty lame complaints about how this goverment is "wasting money". Well I guess it must be wasting money on the NHS - but thats just fine by me - put another 5 pence on the litre - dont expect instant results, 15 years of waste cant be repaired for years. In general they arent spending as much money on stupid stuff - like handouts to those lazy ******* that cant be bothered to get out of bed but can afford to go drinking on my taxes.
A car like the Scooby where the needle drops a quarter of tank everytime you look out the front window is not a car that uses fossil fuels sensibly. If people are worried about fuel costs they ought to think a little about what they drive. I drive a Scooby I and expect to pay for it - sacrifices will need to be made for me to do so.
The increasing heavy traffic on the roads dictates that something needs to be done. Building more roads isnt the answer, (to pre-empt any bright sparks), as England is a sufficiently small country (almost the same polulation as France with half the land mass) to make it near impossible to do much more other than building a few more bi-passes (well unless you buildose our cities etc - nice thought though). For that reason alone I would put another 10 pence on the litre, that way I could drive around in my Scooby with less traffic
Taxing the fuel will encourage other forms of traffic to become a viable solution. Currently they are not and no-one wants invest more money in public transport if there is belief that people are going to go around by car. If its cheaper to move goods by other form of transport than road then good ! not much fun if you are a trucker but it maybe worth seeing if there are jobs on the rails instead.
Petrol in Europe is cheaper, but then, like in France, you have road tolls. Great ?. They also have high taxations in Europe.
Cars are a luxury. Not long ago people would have one car per household. Now people have as many or sometimes more cars than there are people. During school holidays in the summer driving to work is a pleasure, but come school terms every mother has to drive their kids 1/2 - 1 mile to school. (Ive seen someone actually stop to let the kids out in front of school and drive 400 yards into their drive in a people carrier on a nice day !!!)
Then we have the farmers, or more importantly the idiots that have been protesting. Fuel for farming doesnt come under the same taxation as we do - its cheaper. One farmer with a supernova brain last night said "We need cheaper fuel, more specifically the goverment needs to reduce taxes on fuel". But his farming fuel hasnt got particularly high tax, so surely he should be asking the petrol companies to reduce there fuel costs as he will then get maximum amount of saving. Dooohhhhhhh
If farmers have a problem with their living it isnt because of fuel. If there living isnt drawing enough to pay for fuel for domestic uses then tough, join the rest of the country.
The master counter-argument to all that I have said, "ah yes but we cant all walk or use public transport. What about those people in the country ?" Everything is lifestyle choice. Fuel is a limited resource.
Christ I sound like a Green - arrrghhhh
The protestors have been the truckers and the farmers. Hopefully you've read my case that the truckers are trying to look after their jobs - they dont want stuff moving off the roads - BUT I DO, the farmers dont understand why they are protesting.
And the British public ? - well we all like something for nothing.
The goverment ? they havnt backed down - good I dont want some weak goverment. The French buckled, the Belgians havent.
Reading this BBS I cant see any like minded people so I guess I am alone - best put the flame suit on
bkar
15 September 2000, 12:57 PM
#134
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BKAR writes
"Then we have the farmers, or more importantly the idiots that have been protesting. Fuel for farming doesnt come under the same taxation as we do - its cheaper. One farmer with a supernova brain last night said "We need cheaper fuel, more specifically the goverment needs to reduce taxes on fuel". But his farming fuel hasnt got particularly high tax, so surely he should be asking the petrol companies to reduce there fuel costs as he will then get maximum amount of saving. Dooohhhhhhh
If farmers have a problem with their living it isnt because of fuel. If there living isnt drawing enough to pay for fuel for domestic uses then tough, join the rest of the country.
The master counter-argument to all that I have said, "ah yes but we cant all walk or use public transport. What about those people in the country ?" Everything is lifestyle choice. Fuel is a limited resource.
Christ I sound like a Green - arrrghhhh
The protestors have been the truckers and the farmers. Hopefully you've read my case that the truckers are trying to look after their jobs - they dont want stuff moving off the roads - BUT I DO, the farmers dont understand why they are protesting.
I wrote previously
"You are right that red Diesel is cheap by comparison to Derv , but at the moment at 25p/litre aprox as compared with 11p this time last year it is having a huge effect . As an oil producing nation this govt is getting huge extra revinue for oil at a high price
BUT red Diesel is not the only issue , Farmers by deffinition are country dwellers and the car is the only form of transport available and also of course high milage is inevitable a car is not a lifestyle choice ( a Scoob. Turbo is but that is a different story )it is essential for everybody .
But even this is not the main reason for protest . Farming relies to a dissproportionately (wow) large extent on the haulage industry to bring in raw materials (at retail prices ) and dispatch high volumes of low value produce over large distances . i.e. 25 tonnes of wheat at a value of £1500 collected from a remote farm in Lincolnshire and taken to a mill in say Liverpool ,means a high cost per tonne in fuel which is always passed on to the farmer in a lower price for a commodity already at or bellow break even value anyway or squeezzzzed out of the deal for the haulier and farmer by a merchant .
So as you see this is very much solidarity with the haulage industry for mutual benefit "
I can quite see many of your arguments , nobody owes farmers or truckers a living but we are realy rather nice
and one more thing living in the country is not a Lifestyle chioce to genuine country folk , If we could send all the people who work in the smoke to live in the smoke then the environment would improve for everyone !unless they don't like smoke !!!
and before you ask I've not been protesting on my tractor . too buisy counting all that subsidy cash
dissmount soap-box AGAIN !!!!!!
Flame suit on standby !AGAIN !!!!!!!!!
"Then we have the farmers, or more importantly the idiots that have been protesting. Fuel for farming doesnt come under the same taxation as we do - its cheaper. One farmer with a supernova brain last night said "We need cheaper fuel, more specifically the goverment needs to reduce taxes on fuel". But his farming fuel hasnt got particularly high tax, so surely he should be asking the petrol companies to reduce there fuel costs as he will then get maximum amount of saving. Dooohhhhhhh
If farmers have a problem with their living it isnt because of fuel. If there living isnt drawing enough to pay for fuel for domestic uses then tough, join the rest of the country.
The master counter-argument to all that I have said, "ah yes but we cant all walk or use public transport. What about those people in the country ?" Everything is lifestyle choice. Fuel is a limited resource.
Christ I sound like a Green - arrrghhhh
The protestors have been the truckers and the farmers. Hopefully you've read my case that the truckers are trying to look after their jobs - they dont want stuff moving off the roads - BUT I DO, the farmers dont understand why they are protesting.
I wrote previously
"You are right that red Diesel is cheap by comparison to Derv , but at the moment at 25p/litre aprox as compared with 11p this time last year it is having a huge effect . As an oil producing nation this govt is getting huge extra revinue for oil at a high price
BUT red Diesel is not the only issue , Farmers by deffinition are country dwellers and the car is the only form of transport available and also of course high milage is inevitable a car is not a lifestyle choice ( a Scoob. Turbo is but that is a different story )it is essential for everybody .
But even this is not the main reason for protest . Farming relies to a dissproportionately (wow) large extent on the haulage industry to bring in raw materials (at retail prices ) and dispatch high volumes of low value produce over large distances . i.e. 25 tonnes of wheat at a value of £1500 collected from a remote farm in Lincolnshire and taken to a mill in say Liverpool ,means a high cost per tonne in fuel which is always passed on to the farmer in a lower price for a commodity already at or bellow break even value anyway or squeezzzzed out of the deal for the haulier and farmer by a merchant .
So as you see this is very much solidarity with the haulage industry for mutual benefit "
I can quite see many of your arguments , nobody owes farmers or truckers a living but we are realy rather nice
and one more thing living in the country is not a Lifestyle chioce to genuine country folk , If we could send all the people who work in the smoke to live in the smoke then the environment would improve for everyone !unless they don't like smoke !!!
and before you ask I've not been protesting on my tractor . too buisy counting all that subsidy cash
dissmount soap-box AGAIN !!!!!!
Flame suit on standby !AGAIN !!!!!!!!!
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