rovers and mg`s advice please.
01 August 2005, 02:14 PM
#61
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I think as many people have said, we need to look closer at the cars many of us on here drive. My WRX (MY05) is using exactly the same chassis as the original car built in 1992. So it's 13 years old - and yes, it's been modified and everything over the years but it still has awful rear legroom and the interior space is very poor in relation to comparative cars. The dash has only changed mildly over the years as well (as has the Rover 25 shown above). But let's be honest, without the WRX to provide the halo effect, this car (Subaru) would have sunk years ago (since I do not think AWD is enough to sell it). Look how many N/A cars are sold and its so small. But its a cheap performance car and that's why we buy them.
I did have a Rover 214 (1994) which I used for work journeys when I also had a Porsche 993 in the garage for weekends and fun trips. The 214 was an excellent car with a good engine. It only once let me down and did about 20,000 miles in all. Sure, it was soggy handling and worn shocks etc but then for £900 what did I care. For what it was, I liked it...
However, Logiclee hit it right when he reminded us that when they started selling these cars, they pitched them at the wrong levels. All were supposed to be the luxury end of the market - the low spec 25 should be seen as a high spec Escort etc - so all ranges were supposed to slot in between all existing other cars. And it failed badly - all cars failed to sell in the numbers and the quick-fix and cheap prices will only last for so long. Coule that to the issues with Longbridge over time and unformtately, the brand and its value continued to decline. They do make some good cars, but the investment in the equipment and the justification was not there and thus they had to solider on with what they had.
Full credit to Rincewind as well for eloboirating on the actual facts inside the factory rather than guesswork as many of us do. Good luck to MGR - I'd like them to succeed but honestly connaot see it happening. When you fly on an old aeroplane, you know it. Same with a car - and their are a lot more choices in cars than planes.
Andy
I did have a Rover 214 (1994) which I used for work journeys when I also had a Porsche 993 in the garage for weekends and fun trips. The 214 was an excellent car with a good engine. It only once let me down and did about 20,000 miles in all. Sure, it was soggy handling and worn shocks etc but then for £900 what did I care. For what it was, I liked it...
However, Logiclee hit it right when he reminded us that when they started selling these cars, they pitched them at the wrong levels. All were supposed to be the luxury end of the market - the low spec 25 should be seen as a high spec Escort etc - so all ranges were supposed to slot in between all existing other cars. And it failed badly - all cars failed to sell in the numbers and the quick-fix and cheap prices will only last for so long. Coule that to the issues with Longbridge over time and unformtately, the brand and its value continued to decline. They do make some good cars, but the investment in the equipment and the justification was not there and thus they had to solider on with what they had.
Full credit to Rincewind as well for eloboirating on the actual facts inside the factory rather than guesswork as many of us do. Good luck to MGR - I'd like them to succeed but honestly connaot see it happening. When you fly on an old aeroplane, you know it. Same with a car - and their are a lot more choices in cars than planes.
Andy
01 August 2005, 02:23 PM
#62
Ali-B, was a single one of those cars built during the Pheonix rule
It was the boss's daughter's car, she didn't like it so the company bought it off her (due to the poor trade-in value - typical managment "milking"
). It suffered the same faults as the older cars though.I failed to mention much about comfort - My gripe was with the poor lower back support on the seats, even though there was adjustable lumbar support, it was in the wrong place. There was also nowhere to put my left foot, also found the steering wheel being offset slightly to the left seemed to make me sit at a slight angle, not helping my back too much either.
Thats a rhetorical question, and not one to be answered with childish remarks!
(was that childish enough ? 
)I honestly do not know why there are so many Rover fans - esepcially when it come to defending the 25, maybe even the 45. I can understnad it with the 200 turbo/coupe or concerto shape 216's, 800, SD1 3500, P5, P6, 75, MGZT as some were pretty good cars. But some were just not good cars - like the 25/216, but they will still be defended regardless, For example, the SD1s were awfully built - just like Jags of the time, but like Jaguar and Land Rover (me included) there are a huge number poeple who will defend them even though they dragged behind the competetion in many areas and were riddled with faults.
Somtimes pride gets in the way of the facts just like 4x4 Calibra owners saying there is nothing worng with their gearbox, Imprezas are good in the twisties and standard newage can easily outdrag a BMW 535 diesel
Last edited by ALi-B; 01 August 2005 at 02:30 PM. Reason: quotes added for reference
01 August 2005, 04:33 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by Rincewind
Greeting Scoobynet, it has been a while since I've posted but I feel, there are some huge mis-conceptions going on here about MGR and it's products,and this is basically down to ignorance of the brands and products.
It has long been thought that MGR produced poor products and this has been emphasised by DrunkenPikie or what ever his name is, nothing could be further from the truth. I write this as an ex employee who worked in Product Engineering and worked as a homologation engineer for the company, so I know the cars pretty much inside and out. I have found one comment extremely offensive and that was the:
"An old design from a dead company owned and driven by some of the lowest in society"
Someone clearly doesn't have a clue. I'm not going to get into arguments as GT has said, I'm here to try and get people's blinkers off.
I, like my other colleagues have gone through an extremely stressful and difficult period over the last few months and to see the company that you've worked for and love go under is sole destroying. Knowing that you've put 150% effort into producing extremely good cars and to be hounded for 5 plus years by the press who are out to get you is awful and many will suffer for months nay, years becasue of this situation.
It has long been thought that MGR produced poor products and this has been emphasised by DrunkenPikie or what ever his name is, nothing could be further from the truth. I write this as an ex employee who worked in Product Engineering and worked as a homologation engineer for the company, so I know the cars pretty much inside and out. I have found one comment extremely offensive and that was the:
"An old design from a dead company owned and driven by some of the lowest in society"
Someone clearly doesn't have a clue. I'm not going to get into arguments as GT has said, I'm here to try and get people's blinkers off.
I, like my other colleagues have gone through an extremely stressful and difficult period over the last few months and to see the company that you've worked for and love go under is sole destroying. Knowing that you've put 150% effort into producing extremely good cars and to be hounded for 5 plus years by the press who are out to get you is awful and many will suffer for months nay, years becasue of this situation.
The 25/ZR platform is a good, tried and tested platform. No other car in it's class can offer as much space or boast the worlds most powerful production 1.4 engine: argue that if you will, but I have the facts to prove it.
The 45/ZS platform is again, tried and tested technology (thank you Honda). So much so that the BTCC car was often viewed by other manufacturers becasue they wanted to understand how the suspension was set up because it was so close to the production version. During the BMW ownership days, the 45 range was the most reliable and had the lowest warranty claims of any vehicle including 3, 5 and 7 series products with a customer retention and re-purchase rate of over 80%, better than the 3 series.
Ironically many of those that "bought british" wouldn't buy it because it was basically a honda (buying astras and focus instead) and those that were happy to buy japanese found that Honda dealer service was, simply, better.
Anyone who owns the 75/ZT platform is driving the safest right hand drive in it's class. Better than Laguna, 3 series BMW, Jaguar X type, Mondeo and Vectra. Simply because it was designed as a right hand drive car from the outset unlike the other cars. Some manufacturers build the LHD cars stronger than the RHD to get higher NCAP test results. You've also got a car that has high repurchase rates and in it's ZT 190 guise, will stop from 60 to 0 mph faster that Subaru's, Lambos, TVR's, EVO VIII's, Porsche 911 GT3 and so on. It takes 2.5 seconds at over 1g. The car will actually do 0 - 60 - 0 faster than it takes a 2.0 Golf GTi to get to 60!
Bit of mis conception here, Prodrive had nothing to do with any of MGR's products apart from the MG ZT 260 V8. Originally they were contracted to produce a fully manufacturable V8 vehicle for us. They failed and we had to re-design the car from scratch with regards to chassis set up and body construction. I was leading the homologation rescue process because they made such a mess of it. It was a poor management decision to do this when our engineers turn the project around and produced a fine vehicle which the motoring press were bowled over by.
Yes, there were serious management problems,but this did not stop us trying to do our best and I know for a fact that one of the dealers I was good friends with can't move the cars fast enough and since April have moved over 350 cars without huge discounts, so to me it would suggest that now the press has left the company alone, people are buying the products without being blinkered or influenced by idiots who don't understand the first thing about the cars and the brands.
MGR was recognised as having some of the best engineers on the planet and given the right support, funds and good management, we could have been even better. Our development programmes looked at the competition from normal, family cars to sports cars and not wishing to upset people on here, the Impreza's we had from time to time, although very well engineered and performed well, were flawed and had some "features" not acceptable to our requirements. We owned one for months and I remember the lads from ProDrive commenting on how our ZT 190 and 260 V8 put the Subaru to shame in a number of areas with regards to balance and handling. it's the same for all manufacturers, not just Subaru and MGR.
Impreza's grip, they don't handle particularly well. I'd be surprised if the outcome was any different. They have a much better image and rallying pedigree however that the Zt190/260 and that makes a huge difference. Add the fact that the UK STI cars with PPP were faster, had better traction and were significantly cheaper than the 260 and its not rocket science as to which will be more successful for its manufacturer.
There is still a big dealer network out there, servicing will never be a problem as will buying parts from company's like X Part and Catepillar etc have an abundance of them now and there will be parts around for years to come. Sure, warranties will be an issue, but there is nothing stopping people from buying an independant one should they choose to. I run a Rover 25 Diesel and it's my 7th one and touch wood, they've never missed a beat in a combined total of over 300'000 miles between them. I have an MG ZT-T lined up for purchase in the next few months, so I shall continue to buy the products for as long as I can get hold of them.
And what happens when joe bloggs takes his two month old car to the dealer for a warranty fix? Answer - joe either pays for it, or the dealer takes the hit. Not ideal either way
I work for the Vehicle Certification Agency now a Govt. Dept and people still comment on actually how surprised they are the overall quality and value for money they are. At the NEC motorshow, we did over 2500 test drives in 2 weeks and none of our cars broke down having done 1100 miles each on the NEC car park, Vauxhall's, Hyundai's, Nissans and even the Subaru's broke down and were pushed off the circuit. They even used ours to tow them off, so the public were extremely impressed and couldn't understand why we got so much bad press.
As GT and E48 say, ask those that know about the cars to understand what it's all about. Do not get blinkered and do not get sucked into the negativity that surrounded us at Longbridge because it's people like you that had a helping had in bringing down the company because you didn't know any better. Most of the time, people who comment have never sat in a car let alone driven one.
As GT and E48 say, ask those that know about the cars to understand what it's all about. Do not get blinkered and do not get sucked into the negativity that surrounded us at Longbridge because it's people like you that had a helping had in bringing down the company because you didn't know any better. Most of the time, people who comment have never sat in a car let alone driven one.
Sorry it's a bit long, but I gave my heart and sole to that place because I believed in the product and spent months out there helping dealers to sell them and I'm an engineer, so I know what they could do and when people seem hell bent on slagging us off because they have listened to others and therefore show a how weak minded they are, I get a bit upset and angry.
They are good value cars, fit for purpose with some fantastic engineering behind them, just because it's not wrapped up in the latest Euro-packaging (megane, Focus etc), doesn't meant that it is old. Golf is on it's 5th generation and is over 30 years old! What does that suggest. 3, 5 and 7 series BMW's are on their nth generation. It's a difficult world out there in automotive land and I was proud and am still proud to be a part of it. If you don't like them, then look elsewhere, that's why there's a market, just keep your half brained offensive comments to yourself before you start really upsetting people and their families who gave so much over many years.
Nic
They are good value cars, fit for purpose with some fantastic engineering behind them, just because it's not wrapped up in the latest Euro-packaging (megane, Focus etc), doesn't meant that it is old. Golf is on it's 5th generation and is over 30 years old! What does that suggest. 3, 5 and 7 series BMW's are on their nth generation. It's a difficult world out there in automotive land and I was proud and am still proud to be a part of it. If you don't like them, then look elsewhere, that's why there's a market, just keep your half brained offensive comments to yourself before you start really upsetting people and their families who gave so much over many years.
Nic
D
01 August 2005, 05:48 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by ALi-B
I failed to mention much about comfort - My gripe was with the poor lower back support on the seats, even though there was adjustable lumbar support, it was in the wrong place. There was also nowhere to put my left foot, also found the steering wheel being offset slightly to the left seemed to make me sit at a slight angle, not helping my back too much either.
To be honest I hate driving it. It's two year old now, it's been back six times for problems cutting out, suspension knocks and power steering pump failure. On the other hand my 75 was perfect for the two years I had it. I could drive it all day without a hint of back ache. Only downside was economy it was a 2.5V6 Auto and bloody thirsty, used the same amount of fuel as my father in laws XJ8.
Cheers
Lee
01 August 2005, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rincewind
Hand of drive plays a major role in the impact critera vehicle manufacture. You would think that it would be easy to change the drive position and it would just be a bulkhead change. Well, that's one part. You've got to have "handed" peadal boxes, wiring looms, brake pipe systems, heating/ventialtion packs, external mirrors and so on. When you lift the bonnet of an in-line 4 cyl engine, the engine is to one side and the gearbox is on the other side. When you strike a RHD car in the "offset" frontal crash, the first thing that you hit is the longditudional (as the bumper is mearly a cosmetic thing) rapidly followed by the engine and so on.
The 75 has a deformable bumper beam right behind the bumper cover moulding and in between that there is some EA foam so that would help in a crash too...
I'm only a trim and hardware trim designer and havent really been involved in ergonomics that much as it's usually done by the packaging team first...
I've worked for MG Rover for 8 years as a Permi and on and off for a couple of years as a contractor...
I was involved in the initial MG ZT & ZS when Mayflower in Coventry were the engineering consultants for the majority of the exterior and interior trim items,.
I was sad to seee the demise as I personally know so many people there
Last edited by mn_angrybeats; 01 August 2005 at 07:33 PM.
01 August 2005, 08:48 PM
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Sat on my drive are my two cars:
1. Subaru Impreza WRX STi - 2003 - 'tuned' to around 320 BHP / 300 lbft.
2. MG ZT-T+ CDTi 135 Auto - 2003 - as standard. (That's the MG version of the Rover 75 estate, 135ps diesel automatic, for those not 'in the know')
I thoroughly enjoy driving the Impreza, as it's a great car and will always be my 'Sunday' car or my play-thing. However, it's a far less 'complete' package than the MG ZT for day-to-day use and all round practical motoring and enjoyable travel.
I come from a car background of absolutely hating anything that came out of Longbridge. An ex girlfriend's father worked for MGR (in the press team) and was always bringing home the biggest, bestest, fastest, nicest cars available. I loathed and detested every one of them... especially the MG RV8 (or whatever the born-again MGB with a 3.5V8 under the bonnet was called). I vowed that I'd never own a Rover - crap quality, lots of fake wood, 'old man' image, fell apart, etc. etc.
However - the MG ZT has changed all of that. It's a bl00dy great car, to be honest.
I know, that under the skin it's probably got more in common with a BMW 5 series than it has the rest of its MG ZS/ZR siblings, and to be honest, that's why I bought one.
It's well built, handles very well, has a BMW 2 litre turbo-diesel unit that works admirably (at around 40 mpg), has an interior that makes the Impreza look decidedly 'jap plastic', has all the toys (auto dipping rear-view mirror, rain sensitive wipers, dual-zone climate control, heated seats, etc. etc.) and is generally one of the the best (if not THE best) cars I've ever owned.
Part supply is easy - my local Rover dealer still supplies me, as do the 3rd party 'pattern' manufacturers (30 quid for a Rover air-filter, or 12 quid for a 3rd party one). Servicing is similarly as simple... especially as the CDTi is a BMW unit. If I really want a warranty on it, I can cover most things worth worrying about through the AA for about 60 quid a year.
It's even got the BMW-esque opening window in the rear tail-gate, which is very useful.
I'd buy another ZT today - no problem at all - however...
I do think the ZR and ZS, and 25/45 are pretty crap - and wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, all my previous 'Rover' thoughts running clearly into view with these - and the 75 is considerably more 'old man' than the ZT - though still a great piece of kit.
Shades
1. Subaru Impreza WRX STi - 2003 - 'tuned' to around 320 BHP / 300 lbft.
2. MG ZT-T+ CDTi 135 Auto - 2003 - as standard. (That's the MG version of the Rover 75 estate, 135ps diesel automatic, for those not 'in the know')
I thoroughly enjoy driving the Impreza, as it's a great car and will always be my 'Sunday' car or my play-thing. However, it's a far less 'complete' package than the MG ZT for day-to-day use and all round practical motoring and enjoyable travel.
I come from a car background of absolutely hating anything that came out of Longbridge. An ex girlfriend's father worked for MGR (in the press team) and was always bringing home the biggest, bestest, fastest, nicest cars available. I loathed and detested every one of them... especially the MG RV8 (or whatever the born-again MGB with a 3.5V8 under the bonnet was called). I vowed that I'd never own a Rover - crap quality, lots of fake wood, 'old man' image, fell apart, etc. etc.
However - the MG ZT has changed all of that. It's a bl00dy great car, to be honest.
I know, that under the skin it's probably got more in common with a BMW 5 series than it has the rest of its MG ZS/ZR siblings, and to be honest, that's why I bought one.
It's well built, handles very well, has a BMW 2 litre turbo-diesel unit that works admirably (at around 40 mpg), has an interior that makes the Impreza look decidedly 'jap plastic', has all the toys (auto dipping rear-view mirror, rain sensitive wipers, dual-zone climate control, heated seats, etc. etc.) and is generally one of the the best (if not THE best) cars I've ever owned.
Part supply is easy - my local Rover dealer still supplies me, as do the 3rd party 'pattern' manufacturers (30 quid for a Rover air-filter, or 12 quid for a 3rd party one). Servicing is similarly as simple... especially as the CDTi is a BMW unit. If I really want a warranty on it, I can cover most things worth worrying about through the AA for about 60 quid a year.
It's even got the BMW-esque opening window in the rear tail-gate, which is very useful.
I'd buy another ZT today - no problem at all - however...
I do think the ZR and ZS, and 25/45 are pretty crap - and wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, all my previous 'Rover' thoughts running clearly into view with these - and the 75 is considerably more 'old man' than the ZT - though still a great piece of kit.
Shades
03 August 2005, 07:31 PM
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Do you know why it came third??
The people who are selling the warranties for all the NEW 25's are warranty direct,the same people who did the survey..IE..included in this survey is the massive influx of just sold 25's.(brand new ones dont break down that often!!!)
So its a false reading to be honest..and if you think about it,it becomes obvious...there is just no way there "that" reliable..
The people who are selling the warranties for all the NEW 25's are warranty direct,the same people who did the survey..IE..included in this survey is the massive influx of just sold 25's.(brand new ones dont break down that often!!!)
So its a false reading to be honest..and if you think about it,it becomes obvious...there is just no way there "that" reliable..
04 August 2005, 09:05 PM
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I wasn't speculating,one of the team at Warranty direct said this..think i read it in the Herald if i remember rightly..
i dont think rovers are a bad car,there just not good..which aint good enough in the current market.Its well documented that the "K" series engine,regularly blew its headgasket,i even think there was claims in the high court about the issue..If they would have sorted out a new engine i think people may have regained confidence in the brand,unfortunately they stuck the "K" series in every model they did..So they come across totally crap in many peoples eyes..
i dont think rovers are a bad car,there just not good..which aint good enough in the current market.Its well documented that the "K" series engine,regularly blew its headgasket,i even think there was claims in the high court about the issue..If they would have sorted out a new engine i think people may have regained confidence in the brand,unfortunately they stuck the "K" series in every model they did..So they come across totally crap in many peoples eyes..
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