Dead man was innocent.....
23 July 2005, 08:45 PM
#61
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IF a member of my family was killed by the police, after legging it from 3 blokes with guns then leeping over the underground ticket barrier and on to a train I would be very upset but I would still feel that my family member was some how to blame for the situation.
I know what I would do if I saw 3 men with guns, I would freeze with fright, I wouldnt be able to move, I wouldnt think hmmm I can probably outrun these 3 tough looking men with guns best to sprint for it
However you look at it, a asian man with a big coat and a rucksack anywhere in London is going to look pretty suspect at the moment, especially if he is running towards a tube refusing to stop. I can imagine many people getting off the tube if they see some one looking like that, doesn't matter if you say its because people are being racist etc etc Its just how it is and how its going to be for a long time!
I know what I would do if I saw 3 men with guns, I would freeze with fright, I wouldnt be able to move, I wouldnt think hmmm I can probably outrun these 3 tough looking men with guns best to sprint for it
However you look at it, a asian man with a big coat and a rucksack anywhere in London is going to look pretty suspect at the moment, especially if he is running towards a tube refusing to stop. I can imagine many people getting off the tube if they see some one looking like that, doesn't matter if you say its because people are being racist etc etc Its just how it is and how its going to be for a long time!
23 July 2005, 08:46 PM
#62
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Heres some facts, Armed police are very intensively trained in the uk not just in marksmanship but in all the associated decision making process involved in having to shoot a suspect, that is reflected in how few criminals are shot in the uk every year. The current orders will be shoot to kill, you cannot wing a suspected suicide bomber you cannot incapacitate them with a shot to the chest for fear for setting off a bomb vest. It has to be the head shot or not at all, do you not think that the police will not have had very good reason to have to put them under armed surveillance?
23 July 2005, 08:49 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by AsifScoob
Since when did you two become experts on Police recruitment? Do you even live in London?
23 July 2005, 08:50 PM
#64
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ure all argueing and acting smart by saying this dude was running from armed officer and how silly he was to do so. But it has been mentioned umpteen times that the officers were in plain clothes, how in the blue hell is someone supposed to know they are officer if not in uniform.
23 July 2005, 08:51 PM
#65
Originally Posted by Scooby Soon!
IF a member of my family was killed by the police, after legging it from 3 blokes with guns then leeping over the underground ticket barrier and on to a train I would be very upset but I would still feel that my family member was some how to blame for the situation.
I know what I would do if I saw 3 men with guns, I would freeze with fright, I wouldnt be able to move, I wouldnt think hmmm I can probably outrun these 3 tough looking men with guns best to sprint for it
However you look at it, a asian man with a big coat and a rucksack anywhere in London is going to look pretty suspect at the moment, especially if he is running towards a tube refusing to stop. I can imagine many people getting off the tube if they see some one looking like that, doesn't matter if you say its because people are being racist etc etc Its just how it is and how its going to be for a long time!
I know what I would do if I saw 3 men with guns, I would freeze with fright, I wouldnt be able to move, I wouldnt think hmmm I can probably outrun these 3 tough looking men with guns best to sprint for it
However you look at it, a asian man with a big coat and a rucksack anywhere in London is going to look pretty suspect at the moment, especially if he is running towards a tube refusing to stop. I can imagine many people getting off the tube if they see some one looking like that, doesn't matter if you say its because people are being racist etc etc Its just how it is and how its going to be for a long time!
23 July 2005, 08:52 PM
#66
Has anyone even thought about being in the shoes of the Policeman who shot the suspect. Consider this:
The Met have issued a "shoot to kill" policy.
The intelligence that you have been given is that this person is a suspected terrorist/suicide bomber.
This man is wearing a heavy coat certainly not suitable for the warm weather at the time.
He enters a busy tube station, and at that point you warn him that you are armed police and ask him to stop.
The suspect runs and makes his escape over the ticket barriers, obviously with the intent to get away from you any means possible.
You give chase, adrenaline pumping, you see the suspect get on the tube, he stumbles and you catch him.
At this point you have a decision to make; with the death of over 50 people in the first suicide attack fresh in your mind and also an attempt to detonate 3 other devices the previous day. This person is potentially carrying a lot of explosives to take as many lives as possible, including yours as you are now in his immediate vacinity, do you
A) find out weather he speaks English and attempt to reason with him
B) attempt to restrain him, to find out weather he is carrying any explosives
C) attempt to restrain him, and hope that he will not detonate the explosives in the struggle to restrain him.
D) shoot him dead, to prevent detination and thus save the lives of people in the immediate vacinity and prevent another 7/7
What decision do you think you would take? now, remember don't take too long to decide as he could potentially detonate at anytime, especially as he's now at his most vulnerable on the floor, knowing that the police have him and there is no possible means of escape for him except one of course......
The Met have issued a "shoot to kill" policy.
The intelligence that you have been given is that this person is a suspected terrorist/suicide bomber.
This man is wearing a heavy coat certainly not suitable for the warm weather at the time.
He enters a busy tube station, and at that point you warn him that you are armed police and ask him to stop.
The suspect runs and makes his escape over the ticket barriers, obviously with the intent to get away from you any means possible.
You give chase, adrenaline pumping, you see the suspect get on the tube, he stumbles and you catch him.
At this point you have a decision to make; with the death of over 50 people in the first suicide attack fresh in your mind and also an attempt to detonate 3 other devices the previous day. This person is potentially carrying a lot of explosives to take as many lives as possible, including yours as you are now in his immediate vacinity, do you
A) find out weather he speaks English and attempt to reason with him
B) attempt to restrain him, to find out weather he is carrying any explosives
C) attempt to restrain him, and hope that he will not detonate the explosives in the struggle to restrain him.
D) shoot him dead, to prevent detination and thus save the lives of people in the immediate vacinity and prevent another 7/7
What decision do you think you would take? now, remember don't take too long to decide as he could potentially detonate at anytime, especially as he's now at his most vulnerable on the floor, knowing that the police have him and there is no possible means of escape for him except one of course......
23 July 2005, 08:53 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by Chris5-0
Kept my powder dry throughout this whole tirade on various posts but feel i must step in on a few points.
Nobody knows the whole truth about what happened yesterday and until we do i think its unfair to make comment on specific events. What i do see happening straight away is people who were a bit unsure on where they stood in relation to recent events (ie the anti police people on here) rubbing their hands in glee at the points they can score here. Can we remember one thing, people died 2 weeks ago, VERY nearly died two days ago (mother and baby included) and we still have at least 3 if not possibly 4 men out there who were ready to die to kill innocent Londoners and tourists.
So please, shut up and let the police get on with their jobs and take these people off the streets. If anybody knows anything about what i do for a living you will know i have a bit more understanding about procedure and so called rules of engagement for police officers with firearms. I'M not jumping up shouting he was innocent so can i suggest we all keep quiet and find these 3 nutters before we start looking for somwone to blame?
Fact is a male was shot by officers yesterday, we do not know his innocence or guilt but we do not go about shooting people without intelligence to help us make a decision.
Nobody knows the whole truth about what happened yesterday and until we do i think its unfair to make comment on specific events. What i do see happening straight away is people who were a bit unsure on where they stood in relation to recent events (ie the anti police people on here) rubbing their hands in glee at the points they can score here. Can we remember one thing, people died 2 weeks ago, VERY nearly died two days ago (mother and baby included) and we still have at least 3 if not possibly 4 men out there who were ready to die to kill innocent Londoners and tourists.
So please, shut up and let the police get on with their jobs and take these people off the streets. If anybody knows anything about what i do for a living you will know i have a bit more understanding about procedure and so called rules of engagement for police officers with firearms. I'M not jumping up shouting he was innocent so can i suggest we all keep quiet and find these 3 nutters before we start looking for somwone to blame?
Fact is a male was shot by officers yesterday, we do not know his innocence or guilt but we do not go about shooting people without intelligence to help us make a decision.
23 July 2005, 08:56 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by kilo_4que
ure all argueing and acting smart by saying this dude was running from armed officer and how silly he was to do so. But it has been mentioned umpteen times that the officers were in plain clothes, how in the blue hell is someone supposed to know they are officer if not in uniform.
23 July 2005, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by AsifScoob
Since when did you two become experts on Police recruitment? Do you even live in London?
Under goals set by the Home Office, 7.7% of the 150,000 officers in England and Wales must be from minority ethnic backgrounds by 2009. The Met's target is 25.9% to reflect the make-up of the population in its area.
Earlier this month, Met police commissioner Ian Blair revealed that the force is considering using a quota system to raise the number of ethnic minority officers.
Pathetic.
Chip
23 July 2005, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulgirl
But I'm very sure they didn't wait till they pumped him full of bullets to advise him who they were... for gods sake, our police are not that stupid, they cannot afford to be seeing as every tom dick and harry are out to sue them for their own financial gain these days. Greedy toss-pots.
23 July 2005, 09:05 PM
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Taken from the Met Police website:
recruitment targets for April 2005 - March 2006 (correct as of 19/7/05) are:
New Officers 1,300
Transfers & Re-joiners 236
TOTAL 1,536
Our recruitment target for Black and Minority Ethnic police officers is 29%.
That's disgusting. Surely they are non-whites rather than black these days
Chip
recruitment targets for April 2005 - March 2006 (correct as of 19/7/05) are:
New Officers 1,300
Transfers & Re-joiners 236
TOTAL 1,536
Our recruitment target for Black and Minority Ethnic police officers is 29%.
That's disgusting. Surely they are non-whites rather than black these days
Chip
23 July 2005, 09:06 PM
#76
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Originally Posted by kilo_4que
how can u say they were difinately poilce officer. As one mentioned on the news, they most likely were special forces as they operate in a particular way,
Irrespective of whether he wasn't a bomber, he obvisouly felt the need to run away for some reason or another. London is full of criminals. This bloke may have been innocent of the bombings but what other things was he guilty of? The police wouldn't just pick on him and monitor him without any kind of insight, otherwise there would be people dying every day from an officers bullet. Colour, creed and bull**** aside - he was a bloke who the forces had information on to suggest he was dangerous. Some people must think the whole force is stupid or something!
I wish they shot more people instead of making us pay for their lavish lifestyles in prison.
23 July 2005, 09:11 PM
#77
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It's really easy to be critical after the event when you can sit back and deliberate at leisure, in possession of all of the facts.
But given the facts available to the officers at the time - the address he emerged from, his clothing, the items he was carrying and finally his behaviour - and the amount of time they had to make a decision, I believe they made the right call by taking the guy out.
I just hope that any fallout from this does not prevent them from making the same call in future situations.
Gary.
But given the facts available to the officers at the time - the address he emerged from, his clothing, the items he was carrying and finally his behaviour - and the amount of time they had to make a decision, I believe they made the right call by taking the guy out.
I just hope that any fallout from this does not prevent them from making the same call in future situations.
Gary.
23 July 2005, 09:11 PM
#78
Interesting comments, I wonder how many of you experts live in London?
It is extremely nervous here at the moment, there is suspicion everywhere and generally people are afraid and panic at the slightest thing - regardless of what the media says about Londoner being brave.
I give the police full support in the actions they took - given what has happened over the last fortnight and the fact that it has been published in every language in the world this guy must have lived under a rock.
It is extremely nervous here at the moment, there is suspicion everywhere and generally people are afraid and panic at the slightest thing - regardless of what the media says about Londoner being brave.
I give the police full support in the actions they took - given what has happened over the last fortnight and the fact that it has been published in every language in the world this guy must have lived under a rock.
23 July 2005, 09:12 PM
#79
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Originally Posted by kilo_4que
but whats pathetic about it
23 July 2005, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulgirl
If it were the other way around it would be racist! In fact, it's still racist in favour of any other ethnicity.
im asking chip, what is pathetic about the stats hes provided
23 July 2005, 09:15 PM
#81
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Originally Posted by kilo_4que
how can u say they were difinately poilce officer. As one mentioned on the news, they most likely were special forces as they operate in a particular way,
23 July 2005, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kilo_4que
eh what u on about
im asking chip, what is pathetic about the stats hes provided
im asking chip, what is pathetic about the stats hes provided
23 July 2005, 09:17 PM
#84
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If this guy decided to turn and run from a group of armed men, plain-clothed police or civilians, he was definitely up to no good. As far as I am aware, gangsters don't just target people randomly either
Personally I subscribe to the Chris Rock view of running from the police:
"Everybody knows, that if the police have to come and get you, they're bringing an ***-kicking with them!"
Personally I subscribe to the Chris Rock view of running from the police:
"Everybody knows, that if the police have to come and get you, they're bringing an ***-kicking with them!"
23 July 2005, 09:18 PM
#86
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Quick point. For Special Forces to be involved (i presume you mean the SAS?) the whole incident would have to be handed over to the army, who as far as i know do not have much experience in investigating multiple terrorist attacks. The regiment are the best in the world in doing what they do, they do not do statements and forensics!
23 July 2005, 09:18 PM
#87
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Originally Posted by kilo_4que
no they not u idiot
Special forces are more military than police
Special forces are more military than police
23 July 2005, 09:18 PM
#88
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Yawn! knew all this **** would come out, not about the threat this guy *may* have posed and no-one knows any different apart from media coverage which may well be incorrect but about the way the police handled it.
23 July 2005, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulgirl
Look up the word pathetic, then all shall be revealed.
hes providing stats with "pathetic" at the end, hence implying hes not too supportive of those stats.
23 July 2005, 09:19 PM
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I hope it haunts this thug with a gun for life and his carear<sp> is ended. FFS. He had *nothing* on him and he may not have even have spoken english, being chased by a group of white (assumed but odds on) gun totting people who were not identified as police in any way. Id bloody run as well if I didnt understand what they were saying.