JTaylor

Anyone can oppress women. However, this sum's up my point rather well -

"In the Qur'an there are no direct references to the differences in male and female nature. The arguments which emphasise differences between the male and the female as justification of female subordination are based on secondary interpretations of the Qur'anic verses. The Qur'an itself is both timeless and a-historic, but the same cannot be said of its interpretations. In this respect cultural influences in defining human nature become relevant and deciding factor" - Zahra Seif-Amirhosseini


Which has led to -

http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

Which has led to -

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=444536

So am I singling out Muslims? - Yep. Sure am. It's topical and relevant to the debate.

If we had stood shoulder to shoulder with America in relation to the Columbian rebels, and I'd brought up the Columbian rebels reliance upon cocaine production to fuel their fight (literally and metorphorically) would you have said "yeah but other countries produce charlie" ?

In response to the idea that I am trying to turn this into an anti-Islamist agruement, then you couldn't be further from the truth. If you had the time or the inclanation to read the other threads involving Islam, you'd find that I have worked tirelessly to offer a balanced, considered take on the subject. Way off the mark PiwiGTI.

JTaylor

Plymouth. 'tis a bit muggy and the rains made the freshly painted courtyard walls a tad patchy. Roundabouts are giggle at the moment though. Weeks of rubber laid down, some dropped fuel, a couple of days of rain and RE040s have made my favourite drive home erm......involving.

KiwiGTI

I have been involved in other threads about Islam and believe me I will say what I think whether it is PC or not. So it's nothing personal because at the end of the day I don't know who you are.

And that's what I've said here, still can't see why you are going on about it, if Islam isn't the cause of honor killings than why bring it up?

Edcase

Good to see you settling in nicely Tays

moses

thanks kiwi u saved me from retaliating, cheers

now i can leave in peace

JTaylor

JTaylor

That's unlike you Moses. Don't feel qualified to respond?

Leslie

Wonder what it was like in this country before the suffragettes gained success.

Les

Soulgirl

I know where you were coming from. Did you see that movie about islamic women? I believe the moviemaker guy now has a death contract out on him I will try and find it when I get home - It was a very moving short movie and brilliantly filmed. It's based on one woman speaking to allah asking why she is being punished for being a good wife.

Reality

young guy sleeps around - He's just practicing the use of his "six shooter".
young girl sleeps around - Slag, bike etc etc etc.

Now we might not kill them but don't tell me everything is equal when it comes to the treatment of men & women !

Jap2Scrap

You're so right!

Family have baby - Bloke is lucky to get a fortnight off paid leave.
Family have baby - Woman gets the best part of a year off, fully paid, and then decides not to bother going back to work.

Couple get accidentally pregnant - Man doesn't want it but woman does - Tough, you're paying for that for the rest of your life while the state keeps the woman in cash and a flat.
Couple get accidentally pregnant - Woman doesn't want it but man does - Tough, woman has abortion with or without your consent.

Need car insurance? - Man, you're paying through the nose matey.
Need car insurance? - Woman, get your cheap insurance here (even though we secretly know you all drive with your eyes shut, put on make-up, drive in heels, can't 3 point turn, can't reverse, can't parallel park)

Daryl

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this story. I'm not offering an opinion, just thought it was relevant to the thread.

JTaylor

I simply cannot believe, despite a barrel of evidence, that most people will not except that there is an issue regarding womens rights within Islamic Culture. Amazing. It's like people are in denial.

Reality

I think most people are saying it's not restricted to Islamic Culture.

TelBoy

This thread has been "guided" in a certain direction though, JT, and nobody wants to be seen to be the one "inflaming" the issue by discussing it full-on. Nobody on here is, after all, going to endorse honour killings, even though i wouldn't be surprised, from the law of averages, if at least someone here hasn't been directly involved. I'd personally like to hear a frank, honest portrayal of how women are perceived in an Islamic society. By an Islamic woman, preferably.

Reality

Cue new user Humble_Reena

TelBoy

LOL



And NOT some fekkin convenient "life is lovely" cut and paste job/link

AsifScoob

Is Reena supposed to be a Muslim name? - strange that one.

Telboy, if it helps, you may class my Wife as an Islamic woman and she would endorse what I said, probably taking a stronger line against those that denied freedoms as well as those who sought to make a 'big issue' of it.

My guess, but a reasonable one I think.

Asif

TelBoy

But why ARE so many denied their freedoms? What useful purpose does it serve in the 21st Century??

Reality

No - The trolls wouldn't know the difference between a Hindu and a Muslim from 20 yards .

AsifScoob

The only person who can answer that is someone who denies their Wife freedoms. The only person I knew who did that was my old man, but then he was a bit of a tw@t and is no longer around. Sorry cant help more.

Asif

AsifScoob

Fair enough. Not a big deal I was just curious.

Asif

Soulgirl

Oooh... I found it. I was wrong, the film maker doesn't have a death over his head - he's already been murdered
Download it here: http://homepage.mac.com/keld_bach/FileSharing25.html - it's called Submission and it really is very artistic.

JTaylor

This really is all I'm after. Asif, for what it's worth, my white, English, atheist Farther was very much a chauvanist (now dead). Don't get me wrong, I loved the guy, but did find his attitude towards women to be very Victorian. This was particularly difficult because all other social influences screamed equal opportunities. When I first became aware of the said issues, Maggie Thatcher was Prime Minister FFS. So I guess this is why I find the subjagation of women hard to swallow.

There are, without any question, real issues regarding Female
subjagation within Islam - and the extremity of it's enforcement by hardline Islam. Many people have talked how the Muslim community needs to work hard to intergrate, but I beleive that the subject i've pushed presents a real hurdle.

It seems it's such a hot potatoe that nobody, with the exception of Asif and me, will speak openly about their feeling on the subject. Honest, intelligent debate breeds understanding.

moses

i found this for u guys

a fatwah

Name ahtisham - Pakistan
Profession engineer
Question ASSALAMUALIKUM
RESPECTED SIR!
I need to know what is the legal status of honor killings in Qur’an and Sunnah? Why honor killing is so common in Muslim countries than in other world? Up to which extent man go if he is sure his wife is corrupt?

Answer Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear Br. Ahtisham,

This is again a non financial question. Please resubmit it in a general session.

Honor killing is NOT PERMITTED AT ALL IN OUR SHARI'AH, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM; IT IS PRACTICED BY CERTAIN ARABS AND OTHER NATIONS, IT USED TO BE COMMON IN CHRISTIAN EUROPE. IT IS UNCULTURED PRACTICE THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM.

THE QUR'AN DOES NOT PERMIT THAT YOU CAN TAKE THE LAW IN YOUR HAND.

Read also :

Honor Killing from an Islamic Perspective

Allah Almighty knows best.


--------------


Title of Fatwa Honor Killing from an Islamic Perspective
Date of Reply 17/Jun/2002
Topic Of Fatwa Retaliation (Qisas), Customs & Traditions
Question of Fatwa Respected scholars, As-Salamu `Alaykum wa Rahmatu Allah wa Barakatuh. What does Islam say about honor killings? Does Islam really have a concept of honor killings, most of the victims here are females; so does Islam really order to kill females in the name of honor?

Name of Mufti Islam Online Fatwa Editing Desk
Content of Reply
Wa`alykum As-Salaamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, we do really appreciate your question, which shows how far you are interested in getting yourself well-acquainted with the sound teachings of Islam. May Allah bless your efforts in pursuit of knowledge and may He keep us all firm in the straight path!

Sister, it’s a well-known fact that Islam maintains the protection of life and does not sanction any violation against it. In the Glorious Qur’an, Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93

Focusing more on your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

“There is no such concept in Islam that is called “honor killing”. Islam holds every soul in high esteem and does not allow any transgression upon it. It does not allow people to take the law in their own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be leading to chaos and lawlessness. Therefore, based on this, Islam does not permit such killings.

First of all, in order to sanction killing, it must be through a binding verdict issued by an authoritative law court. Individuals themselves have no authority either to judge cases or pass judgments. Therefore, a Muslim should not sanction such killing because doing so will be leading to the rule of the law of the jungle. A civilized society cannot be run by such laws.”

Shedding more light on it, Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr, former head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, states:

“Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)

The so-called “honor killing” is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.

It goes without saying that people are not entitled to take the law in their own hands, for it’s the responsibility of the Muslim State and its concerned bodies to maintain peace, security, etc., and to prevent chaos and disorder from creeping into the Muslim society.”

Moreover, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanooti, member of the North American Fiqh Council, adds:

“In Islam, there is no place for unjustifiable killing. Even in case of capital punishment, only the government can apply the law through the judicial procedures. No one has the authority to execute the law other than the officers who are in charge.

Honor killing could be a wrong cultural tradition. It is unjust and inhumane action. The murderer of that type deserves punishment.”

Sister, if you are still in need of more information, don't hesitate to contact us. Do keep in touch. May Allah guide us all to the straight path!

Allah Almighty knows best.

JTaylor

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...4e16a870418a87

A balanced article.

Moses, with respect, what does your post demonstrate? What are your actual feelings regarding the female role in society?

Do you believe that men have "pre-eminence" over women or that they are "overseers" of women? What about if your wife is insubordinate, do you simply except this or do you admonish her? What about your breathren in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt etc who beat their wives for being insubordinate? For somebody who is normally so eager, in relation to this subject your opinion has been conspicuous by it's absence.

moses

the question u r asking me is silly, coz the same stuff happens here, beating and sex without consent when drunk and if a woman says no beat her up, if your team looses beat the woman up

before i answer your question

u tell me what do u think my beliefs r pls i need a good read

and then i will answer, will need to be tomorrow, im going now to watch agenda and then read my prayers

cheers and night night

JTaylor

You keep side stepping Moses. I thought you were fearless, unafraid to speak your mind.

What do I think your beliefs are? Well if I knew this I wouldn't have asked. Good night - I look forward to your considered response.

moses

i never ever sidestepping anything i actually always talk about this

but im in need of a good read, i wanna hear what u think i believe in as do others , probably an extremist, a fanatic a wife beater etc etc


so go on

and pls never say i sidestep i wont sidestep a question from a person like u, who is honest and not a scumbag like the rats, its only the rats i dont talk too in a civil manner in the scoobynet a person with your calibre i wont sidestep the question

but tell me what u think i am, them i will explain

maybe u aint seen my posts before here many a time

i will give u an example, when u love someone, u dont beat them up or hurt them, thats not luv, it goes for both sides, if a woman hits a man , its equal rights they want so give it to them u got the right to hit them back if they hit u, otherwise if u luv someone, no one has the right to hurt anyone.

a woman if she hits u a few times a man shouldnt respond if its nothing serious unless she hits him bad and throwing stuff on him to hurt him then a man has the right to defend himself, its sad if he does he gets charged and the law will be against him

no such thing as weaker sex, woman can be dirty fighters, anyone have girls ganging up in u in school coz they know u cant hurt them

i will just talk about it then about your question

a womans role in society alot, they give birth to men and bring them to this world, an awesome piece of work, their mothers, wifes , daughters and homemakers

their more important than anything their the first school the children r gonna have, if the woman teaches their young about life and kindess in the beginning, chances r her kids r gonna grow up very good, if she is a drunk foul mouthed theiving dole scrounger bitch, chances r, she sets a good example of chavness for her kds.

a womans role is equal , what u see in the muslim world is an aftermath of colonialism , mate their new countries the babies of the world, india, pakistan and other asian and middle eastern lands

its gonna take time, their history and educating and basically all they had , had been destroyed, if u look just over 200 yrs ago u will be surprised the authority woman had in islam it was alot.


woman r equal to men but both have different rights, 2 different kind of human beings as u know, genetically and in the way of thinking.

men r not subjagaters of woman and never ever should be, woman arent slaves but your partners, your lives and your friends, a friend in need a best friend a man can ask for a trust and a bond and u make beautiful babies mixed in with your luv with both genes and a part of your souls intwined.

my wife is free to do whatever, she enjoys it no work and shop when she feels like and meet her friends and relatives and she has enuff on her plate looking after my lil girl she is a lil moses so u know what i mean a handful .

and regarding honour killing a sickness and an evil thing to do.


its sad , i believe in no sex before marriage and some muslim children r so good and kind and loving to their parents and asian kids as a whole , muslim, hindu or sikh whatever they are

even if they dont commit a sexual act but luv someone and want to marry them, their parents r so strict they wont let them and would force their children to marry them and sometimes if a kid is caught with another , it brings shame to their family and honour in the community and they kill their daughters its sad, why the woman, why dont u ever punish your boys when they **** around with someone elses daughter the *******s, its always the woman who get the brunt.

its not allowed mate the above to kill your child

i believe in purity and to bring your children up not to shame your family , i believe a person should keep themselves away from adultery and sin and if they luv someone the guy should have enuff ***** to speak to his parents and the girls parents for her hand in marriage , thats luv , the rest is bull**** to **** around with someone elses daughter out of marriage, if u luv someone ask their hand in marriage and marry them

and no parents have right to force their children, i hate the hypocrites in my community, its total against islam its forbidden a haram, to force your children in marriage against their will.

but the muslim elders plus asian elders do it all the time, they think their doing good for their kids, coz they know the other side and know the family have a good record they dont want their daughters to marry some junkie or thieve maybe, so their afraid.

but its not the way to do it

theirs a difference between forced and arranged

arranged is good, asians, greeks some of them and also middle eastern christians and jews have arranged marriages and some latin people

its an arrangement between 2 couples if they like each other they marry otherwise dont

anything else

JTaylor

Thanks for your account Moses.