ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I'm glad this case has been cleared up....nobody with a clear conscience runs from the police, he had done something wrong and he knew it and that is probably why he ran.

On that basis and under those suspicions, with him leaving a house under surveilence in connection to the bombings, and then realisation that this person could actually be carrying a bomb as it became obvious he was heading for the tube, I still think the police were right to do what they did - the ultimate question is how do you stop a suicide bomber? And the answer is to kill them before they have chance to press the button - the police knew that was the only option.

And when challenged this was the guys chance to put suspicions to rest. But him running was the nail in his coffin. We now know why he ran, we also know that he would understand English to the extent of "police, stop". And if I was in the same circumstances as the armed police officers, I may well have put a bullet in his head too.

Nobody deserves to die, not even suicide bombers - if they die they are martyrs for their cuase, caught alive they can be truely disgraced for what they really are. For that reason I would want them alive.

moses

mart what did i say that was strange

davyboy

I tell you what, if people were pointing a gun at me I would run too!

How did he know they were police officers if they were not in uniform?

moses

davy i had the same arguement, coz of the circumstances i was pro shoot to kill coz of the stuff that happened beforehand

and then u find out this man would have been alive if the police didnt **** up in the first place , in the bbc news and other news channels

they said they were watching out for this flat and the brazilian was actually from no .17 and not 21

then they let him go on the bus coz they were investigating, well if he was a terrorist let him on the bus so he can blow another 20 to 40 people in the bus, if he was a suspect

then the coppers were asked why did u not stop and search him before he went on the bus, they replied, it wasnt our department ffs , so they let him go

and then the coppers with no caps and no uniform decide to point a gun at him and he runs into the train with people in it, and if he was that dangerous shouldnt the coppers blow his brains out before he gets into the train ,no, they jump on him and pin him down and shoot him 8 times, if he was that dangerous do u think the coppers would have pinned him down first.

then the eye witness's in the train said they had no uniforms on and when they killed the man, they put their police caps on afterwards

mart360

and how far would you get,,

newsflash!!!!!

news just in ......britain has a dead cert for the olympic mens 100m final to held in london..... davyboy can outrun bullets.... with speed like that the competition dosent stand a chance......

end of news flash....


futile


Mart

douglasb

Don't know about where you live, but around here we don't have too many people pointing guns at other people (maybe apart from the "Get orf moy laaand" variety). As I've never had a gun pointed at me I don't know how I'd have reacted, but I suspect that if I'd just heard someone shout something along the lines of "Stop. Armed Police" I don't think I'd have tried running away. I'll also guess that if some madman with a gun goes out with the intention of killing people they won't shout warnings to their vicitms to tell them that they are armed Police officers.

Basically, if someone points a gun at me and tells me that they are an armed Police officer, I am going to believe them and am not about to run away.

moses

lol he cant run that fast oor davyboy, he is a jehovahs witness while he legs it he will also try to convert the people he passes, hear the lords word and leg it with me and we shall run faster than the speeding bullet, hallelujah

Darbo_wrx

the guy was the biggest fool in the universe

theres just been terrorist bombings and you run from the police!!!!

bullets in the head expected me thinks

top and bottom the police are doing a wonderfull job at the moment
the opperation to put down these scum terrorists it absolutly full speed ahead
every day some more are being arrested
some may be innocent but thats up to them to prove
if any one bombes fellow citizens of great britain whatever religion they deserve to be hanged for treason against british citizens full stop

Support our police and security forces they are doing a excellent job



Darbo

Scoob99

iTrader: (1)

If he had stopped when the police asked him too, I'm sure he would be alive today Visa or no visa but as he ran he caused his own death, I'm not saying it was right in what happened, but the police had split second timing to make up thir minds, I'm sorry an innocent man died, but he should have stopped when asked too.
Cheers
Colin

pete1977

Sounds like he ran because he knew fine and well he was in the wrong(being in the country illegally) which is what basically caused his death.If thats the facts then their is no disputing that he inadvertantly caused his own death.Unlucky!
I just find it strange that our police seem to be shooting more innocent people these days .They dont appear to be very capable with firearms.Nowhere near as capable as our forces in iraq.

Leslie

The fact that his visa had expired probably explains why he ran away. This is the only bearing on the incident, it does not have any significance with regard to the police actions.

The Police did not shoot becuase of an offence that they knew nothing about. The man acted in a way which convinced them that he was a suicide bomber and he came out of a house which was under surveiillance. We are told he jumped over a ticket barrier and entered an underground train having ignored a police challenge.

What possible conclusion could the police have come to except that he was likely to detonate a bomb and kill a lot of people? They acted very bravely to approach him on the train and their actions were absolutely correct.

It is a tragedy that he was so foolish as to ignore the police challenge to stop and to run away.

Les

The Zohan

IMHO

I may explain why he ran.

No the Police are not responsible for compensation, he should not have been in the country and therefore was 'Illegal' - I am not saying it is alright to gun down 'illegals' but he should not have ran and ultimately, if he had gone back when his visa had expired then he would not have put himself in the position he was in.

The family have my sympathies for the loss of his life.

Reality

Have we been told that Les - I don't remember seeing anything about when he was allegedly challenged. The only witnesses that I've heard from were on the train at the point the guy was shot.

Anyone who wasn't a certified looney would stop if challenged by Armed Police in a clear manner - I cannot believe that this guy when challenged by Police decided I know I'll make a run for it.

I have a different theory about how this happened as you know - but it's just conjecture.

Security Forces tailing him from the flats to try and see if he'll lead them to the others (thinking he's a suicide bomber). He gets to the station - sees he's about to miss his train and decides to run for it. Security forces (still thinking he's a suicide bomber think "**** me he's running for the train to blow it up") Issue a late warning which the guy may or may not hear and the rest is history.

I'm not saying this is what happened but, imho, it sounds much more likely than Armed Police stopping the guy at the ticket barrier saying "Armed Police - FREEZE" and the guy thinks "I know I'll run for it". I simply cannot believe that anyone is THAT stupid.

The guy didn't deserve to die for being an illegal Immigrant - If anything this puts more burden of guilt on the politicians that allow illegal immigrants to remain here !

GaryK

Doesnt make a jot of difference, I didnt give a fvck before and I still dont.

About time this country stopped ***** footing around and dealt with things properly

Jerome

Just how many innocent people have they shot recently that I'm not aware of? According to the BBC, these are the most recent innocent people shot:

14 Jan 1983: Stephen Waldorf (survived), Kensington, west London
15 Jan 1998: James Ashley, St Leonards, East Sussex
22 Sep 1999: Harry Stanley, Hackney, east London

Hardly an exstensive list, is it?

Furthermore, what makes you think police firearms officers aren't as capable as soldiers, and what exactly do you mean by "capable"?

The Zohan

agreed Jermome hardly and everyday occurance!

Oh and re Harry Stanley
His criminal past included armed robbery
see;
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?...7&id=674072002

turboman786

To say that this man got what he deserved is truely pathetic, and demonstrates the miserable attitude that people have picked up off the even more miserable tablid press.

I hope when you go on your next hol, and break a law, the local cops execute you..after all this is what you will deserve.

Reality

Interesting to see he was shot once in the hand and once in the head.

Looks like 1 of the officers was trying to dissarm - the other was trying to Kill.

Or they were both aiming for the chest and weren't very good shots .

Chris L

The one thing we should be grateful for is that things like this still make the news - it is an incredibly rare event. Compared to Brazil where corruption, torture and police 'death squads' have been a feature of every major city for years. Have a read of Amnesty International's reports on the Brazilian police. They reported over 700 people killed by police (or 'resistance by death' as the Brazillian police call it) in one month in Sau Paulo

Leslie

Reality,

It was generally reported that he was wearing a heavy padded jacket, he was challenged to stop by the police, he ran, jumped over the barrier, and ran onto a train. That was the report and we don't know any different since we were not there. That is why I said" if that is what happened." That is at least more likely to be accurate than your pure conjecture as you admitted.

Put yourself in the Police officers' place, and please tell us exactly what you would have done which was different and more effective in protecting your own life and those other people who were in the vicinity.

It would be interesting if all those who have criticised the police action would do the same!

Les

Reality

The question for me is WHEN he was challenged by the Police. If he was challenged then decided to bolt then I would have shot him and he would only have himself to blame.

I just can't believe anyone is THAT stupid !

We'll see what the inquiry says - by the way the "generally" reported statement means nothing - I see the enquiry team are looking for witnesses to verify what happened and in what sequence.

Why was he allowed to get on a bus - something else that was "generally" reported ?

Jerome

It is pointless to speculate on what operational decisions were made on the ground until the enquiry is complete. For instance, the bus may have been nearly empty and the risk of him blowing himself up was deemed acceptable. The tube is a whole different ball though.

pete1977

Im on about the ratio of firearms incidents where a round actually gets fired.I dont have any official figures but im sure the polices ratio is a lot worse than the british armys.You are surely not going to argue that armed police have the same sort of real time experience as certain regiments in the army?I know that in some days over in iraq it isnt unusual for a good few hundred rounds to be expended in contacts.That makes up for a lot of incidents in which split second decisions are made and lifes are lost or saved.It doesnt really happen that often for the police,there is only so much a SAT trainer can teach!
As for being not capable or incapable ,maybe that is slightly harsh. Having worked with the best(thats what we were told!) of the police i can certainly say i thought they were very good range shooters better than a lot in the army,but they also showed themselves to be a bunch of "flappers" in which case it doesnt really matter how good a shot you are as when you "flap" anyone can get some!As the police have already shown on numerous occassions and thats not just with firearms either.
In a way its a good thing that our police are,nt very experienced at making these decisions as it shows what a peacefull country we live in.

Reality

"Initial inquiries will try to establish the sequence of events - the movements and appearance of the victim, who wore a heavy jacket on a warm morning; whether any warning was given; what form the warning took and whether it was audible to the victim and witnesses.

Scotland Yard has insisted a "challenge" was issued and the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, has said that Mr de Menezes did not "obey" a police instruction."

We'll just have to see what the "challenge" was !

Reality

I agree - it's everyone else telling us what the sequence of events were when the Inquiry team don't know that's starting to **** me off.

Jerome

I think I know what you are getting at now, but a military contact is far different from a police contact. The police do not have automatic weapons for a start. Also, the police are concerned with the safety of the general public etc. Not many squaddies returning fire in a contact are worried too much about civilians, especially in Iraq where insurgents are in civvies. If an innocent bystander is shot by the police, there is usually hell to pay. If an innocent bystander is killed during a battle with the army, I doubt any action is taken.

Also, not all soldiers get to take part in contacts (I certainly didn't). Even those that do, who knows how accurate their shooting was. A tactic often used is to fire at likely hiding places to flush out an enemy. Can you imagine if the police did that?

Also, there are live firing CQB ranges where targets pop up. I imagine the police make more use of these than the army does. Far more realistic than a SAT trainer.

A agree certain regiments in the army will be, on average, better shots than the police. But other than that, I would imagine the standard required of a armed police officer is higher than that of the average squaddie.

As for flapping, I assure you the army has it's fair share of those as well.

Chris5-0

It's a double edged sword. Pistol wise, i'd put my neck on the block and say i'm a better shot than a good percentage in the army. Purely because squaddies (unless their role deems it neccessary) do not get trained in pistol shooting and do not carry. Carbine wise, again operationally i am more than happy to be able to hit a half man sized target at 50 metres 100% of the time with a tight group.

This however is nothing if it cannot be put into use operationally. I'd happily bet i get engaged in more live armed operations than an average soldier does adn draw my weapon more (Iraq being the exception i think). But it is a different game, it's like comparing British football to Argentinian football, they use the same kit, have the same skill levels but everyone raves over the argentinians and just assumes their better!

I get a full week dedicated to training every 6 with loads of rounds fired as well as training during shift time, (house entry, containment, shield searches etc) My understanding is this, give me a house to contain, negotiate with and eventually enter and clear and i'll do a better job than all of the army (bar the obvious). Put me on a field in Iraq with an SA80 and point at a horizon and tell me to kill baddies and they have the edge.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

mart360

quick question please endulge me...


once you have used your weapon for training purposes, adn you come to clean it ,,

can you very quickly describe the steps you take


M

GC8

As an aside; this is a far from complete list.