Leslie

Suresh,

Why hold up the Eu as an example of why this government is so good for this country? NL politics are similar to the Eu PC prats anyway. Really impressed at how they now propose early retirement at 50 on 65% pension rights for Eurocrat employees. The gravy train keeps gaining more carriages! You on the other hand are beginning to sound like PSL and his blinkered rantings. Do you think that what is done in the Eu justifies us having to accept it with joy and understanding here? I make no apoplogy for criticising your precious hero.

Please explain your allusion to aluminium sulphate.

Les

Apple

Les,

AFAIR (very sketchily) aluminium sulphate may have links to Alzheimer's if the exposure is high / long term and a common way to get the "dose" is through drinking water...

hedgehog

This really isn't the case Les, as I have stated previously Lincs partnership have just revealed that they snapped pictures of 61,000 motorists and only got fines from 31,000. Now not all of these "failures" will be down to people who mounted a defence but never the less a proportion will be. I'm currently contemplating a Freedom of Information request to see if they will provide a breakdown of the reasons for motorists not being fined. I'm pretty confident that they will claim they "don't have the information you requested" because they don't want everyone knowing just how many people do mount a successful defence. If the number mounting a successful defence was generally known then I believe the floodgates would open and everyone would be doing it, hence why the police and partnerships are now targeting internet forums. They are trying to stifle the flow of information which allows motorists to successfully defend themselves and this is the very reason why it is more important for us to continue to exchange information and open up new defences.

The other point, which is really just semantics, is that people who mount a defence within the law and win, as is often the case, do not "get away" with anything. When you mount such a defence you prove that you were not guilty of the offence or that the evidence against you is flawed in the eyes of the law. In many of these cases it was actually the police or the partnership who broke the law in order to try and gain a conviction.

TelBoy

Surely they're not trying to stifle the dissemination of information - rather they're just looking for blatant admissions of guilt, no? But how do they link Hedgehog on Scoobynet saying he was doing 150mph, for example, to a contested NIP on their desks??

Can you be more specific in what the most successful defences are?

hedgehog

You might be right, perhaps they are just looking for admissions of guilt, however making it public that they are monitoring internet forums is certainly going to discourage people from posting their defences on one and also limits the scope for free and open discussion lest someone accidentally say something which is misrepresented and used against them. So, I would be fairly certain that the intention is to suppress discussion as the internet has been a significant thorn in their side for some considerable time now and has resulted in the development of a range of effective defences. The process of linking usernames to people would appear to be a fairly trivial one as documented in the newspaper article which i posted previously in this thread.

Part of the effectiveness of the internet has been that people have openly discussed successful defences and so this has empowered others to start using them resulting in a snowball effect. The unsigned forms defence was one excellent example just because it was so high profile and it is still of some use in Scotland. The PACE defence and the Para 4 defence have also been very successful and there are a range of others that depend more on specific circumstances than the more general ones given above, incorrect signage is a good example and I am aware of several roads which i know to be incorrectly signed just in my local area.

All told there is a lot of scope for the motorist to present a defence, some may be unsuccessful but for a very many people it is a worthwhile exercise and anyone wanting some idea of what is going on would find pepipoo a good place to start.

On top of all the "local" defences there are now a number of people appealing to the ECHR. Perhaps the most famous is Idris Francis and there may be a decision on his case early next year. If he wins the flood gates may literally open as it is possible that the NIP in its present form will become illegal and that may even have implications for people already convicted. Clearly the "high level" fight put up by the likes of Idris sits atop the grassroots fight being put up by a very many ordinary motorists.

V4JDMSTi

iTrader: (2)

i agree with the 85 and over as mentioned elsewhere in the thread. it's been in traffic cops on the telly loads of times that unless over 85 they don't bother unless they haven't meet their quota for the day i guess

but that's the trouble with cameras i think they've only got a 10% allowance on them so 77 would be your lot.

Leslie

Apple.

Yes thanks I was aware of the effects of aluminium sulphate and also that there was an incident of it finding its way into the water supply in Camelford some years ago due to gross incompetence by SW Water which has caused great distress to many people. This happened a very long way from my place and I am on spring water anyway.

I was just interested why Suresh was accusing UB and me of senility and whether he has the bottle to answer that question.

I understand your point Hedgehog and I do agree of course that if you are able to prove that you have been wrongfully accused of speeding then you have every right to defend yourself. I for one certainly would.

I had not realised about the figures you mention and felt that the likelihood of defending a speeding charge from speedcam evidence successfully was pretty slight. That is why I said what I did in the earlier post.

Les

Suresh

Sorry chap, didn't know you'd replied. I don't spend my life here. Glad someone explained the Aluminium gag to you though

I'm not pretending that any government is perfect and in fact am well-aware that NL have made are making and will make a number of mistakes. What irks me is the pathetic bleating that you and your equally blinkered buddies continue to post here about "the sky falling". Chicken licken was wrong and so are you.

TB is not my hero fool, he's just the best leader that the country has had since Thatcher. Unfortunately Maggie was a selfish old bitch who would rather help her buddies line their own pockets than help out those who needed it. Thankfully the CONservatives are unelectable and look like remaining so for quite a while yet. Much as this may irritate the blue-rinsers out there.

Have a good weekend and please, try to learn to live with your frustrations rather than typing them out here.

Suresh

Diesel

Wurzel, what you say about the speecams there is horrendous. No wonder we fought the tyrant once; still I'm sure Suresh would love it out there! Does the ruling party there at the moment have 'social' in the title - if so job done & off you go!! Leave us to fight injustice/government imperfection here Suresh. We beat the ***** 50 yrs ago, we might just do it again

Big Den

Guys please:

This isn't a political differences thread, it's about Scameras encroaching on our civil liberties.

Den

RI5DLE

Can you post a link to Pepipoo page mentioned above? I can't find it and the info could prove very useful

Big Den

R15DLE

As posted on one of the earlier pages in this thread - the pepipoo URL

Den

Leslie

Suresh,

You did not read my reply to Apple very closely did you? and your inferred insult to UB and me about our mental state did nothing to strengthen your argument.

He may well be able to lead his fawning followers alright, but when will he use those skills to actually do something to the real benefit of the electorate at large? he has done far more to enrich his supporting cast then was ever done by any other party.

The Conservative party deserve maximum castigation for their total inability to put up any kind of effective opposition so far.

Les

Chip

Well it's not really is it. It's about the fact that you were caught breaking the law and don't like it.

I do sympathise with you though.

Chip

Suresh

Les, Finally we agree on something!

Perhaps you could limit your future tedious rants to this fact instead rather than the fact that the economy has been booming since NL came to power - which is something it certainly wasn't doing when I left the country under the Conservatives. Independent Bank of England or the party which might deliver another ERM fiasco. Take your pick. Like you said, it's not too difficult to reject the Tories....

Big Den

Thx Chip

What happened to innocent until proven guilty? I haven't been caught breaking the law - I have a letter claiming that my car was seen on a road exceeding the speed limit - that's all!!

Thought I'd just clarify the current position.

Den

hedgehog

You are of course totally correct Big Den, your car can't break the law. The only way they can connect you to the event is if you fill out and sign the NIP to say that you were the driver at the time that your car was photographed. The government admit that there are at least 130,000 vehicles on cloned plates which is just one reason why the car in the photo may have nothing to do with you.

However, they have made the law such that the penalty for not admitting to the offence (i.e. filling out and signing the NIP) is greater than the penalty for the offence and so many people just say it was them, even if it wasn't. In my view that is nothing even close to justice and it certainly does not imply that you have a right to silence or to not incriminate yourself. As you have also spotted you are guilty of this unless you can prove innocence and sometimes that isn't so easy.

With this in mind Idris Francsis, and others, are taking the government to the ECHR on these very issues. It his thought that we may have a result by early next year and there are already some indications that the case my go our way. With this in mind the current system, which does nothing but bring the law into disrepute, may soon be illegal and i suspect they are already working on ways to ensure that their revenue stream keeps pouring in. In the mean time all we can do is our best to uphold good law and to fight them at every available opportunity.

Stringpants

Someone was not paying attention to the speed limit....got caught..pages and pages....WHY?

It happens to hundreds of people every day.

I am just waiting for one myself....Yes..I am an Officer of the Law!!!

Stringpants.

Big Den

My original point of this thread was that, where/when the alleged offence took place, was on a stretch of straight 3 lane motorway, dry conditions, not heavy traffic, no slip roads, etc. The alleged speed was over the official limit but IMO was not at a dangerous level.

Why do the police and the so called 'safety camera' goons not spend time catching those Chavs that race about in 30 & 40 mph areas in towns and indeed thos people I like to refer to as 'Sunday Drivers' who drive at 35 - 40 mph on the open country roads holding up everybody but upon reaching a 30mph limit continue at the same speed therefore, exceeding the speed limit in a more dangerous area having pi$$ed everyone off by drving slow on the out of town roads!!!!

Den

AndiThompson

Your unfortunate there, a traffic cop probably wouldn't have bothered you, but bloody cameras and scamera vans don't give a toss what the conditions are. Thats why we need more cops, not more cameras.

At the end of the day though, as was said in the OP, if you broke the law, its time to face the consequences, no one forced you to do it, its not like you didn't know you were speeding, it was your choice, so you really should accept what comes with that choice.

Big Den

Just to repeat what I said earlier!!!

Smiler

I really don't see the problem here.

You were caught doing 84mph. As speedo's are designed to over read by approx 10% you were driving with a speedo reading of 90+

hedgehog

He wasn't caught doing 84mph, it is alleged by some that he may have been doing 84mph and in any fair society someone would now have to prove it in order to get a conviction. There was, for example, a recent demonstration on TV of a laser speed meter which was reading 58mph from a brick wall. The wall was, of course, stationary.

I presume, with your guilty until proven innocent attitude, that you may be another member of our highly respected law enforcement agencies? Or perhaps you have just been bought out by the propaganda they produce.

Big Den

Cheers for the support Hedgehog.

Brickwall seems to be an apt expression for some of our fellow scoobynetters on this topic or perhaps 'blinkered'.

Also a lot of people seem to be replying without reading the earlier posts in the thread. So here is the opening post I made as a reminder:

"Travelled down from Scotland on Friday to attend the Castle Combe Rally Day on Saturday 13 August. (can't remember who was driving though )

Just received a 'Notice of Intended Prosecution'.

Thanks very fookin much ya barstewards.

Why don't you **** off & catch some real criminals or those a$$holes who drive at 35-40mph out of town holding every body up & keep the same speed in a 30mph limit area thereby going ahead of those people that actually abide by the in town limit.

Don't get me wrong if you break the law, you should take the consequences but I NEVER exceed 20, 30 & 40 mph speed limits and to get pulled up for cruisng down the motorway not much above the 70mph limit really pi$$es me off."

Den

TelBoy

So, to summarise. You were speeding on a clear road, and you've admitted it.

You have an NIP from an indiscriminate scamera which seems, and probably is, a little harsh.

Various forms of defence have been suggested which, in your situation, wouldn't seem to be appropriate unless you're prepared for the hassle and potential higher penalty.


And that's it, right?

Big Den

Telboy

I have admitted nothing except the fact that I drove down to Castle Combe -I received the NIP as the RK of the vehicle alleged to have been recorded 'exceeding' the 70mph limit.

Cheez - if this had been in the olden days & I'd been accused of being a witch, a lot of you guys would have had me dunked in the river & burnt at the stake already!!!!

Den

TelBoy

Ok, so if you REALLY don't know who was driving then just go through the process and stand your ground. Simple. They're not going to prosecute you if you can prove you genuinely don't know who the driver was. I think the message here is to do it within the framework of the law rather than being "creative" with NIPs returned unsigned etc.

Leslie

Suresh,

I just can't be bothered to explain why the apparent booming economy is yet another smokescreen. Big Den has put up with enough of that on his thread already.

Your somewhat patronizing advice is of little help by the way.

Les

hedgehog

To be fair it is not clear to me that anyone has admitted anything. Apart from the brick wall example of a previous post there was also an interesting case where a chap was done for a relatively high (as i recall it was about 48mph) in a 30. He knew he couldn't have been doing that at the time because he was in a traffic jam. When he fought to get the photos and did the distance/time calculation on the pictures his speed was found to be 13mph. After getting the press involved his case was dropped.

There was also a case where a chap was at a wedding when "his car" triggered a speed trap at the other end of the country. Despite having literally tens of witnesses as to his, and his cars, location at the time the partnership and the CPS fought the case all the way, a great use of court time and tax payers money.

Last October 1136 drivers on the Wrexham bypass were sent NIPs and paid the fine despite the fact that the signs indicating the speed limit had been wrongly situation and so they were actually driving within the posted limit. The ABD have a web page listing illegally issued fines and the current total is 45,309 that they know about with another 135,000 currently pending.

So, getting an NIP is far from proof of anything other than that you have got an NIP, it is certainly no indication that you were speeding or even driving your car at the time of the incident. The government admit that there are at least 130,000 cloned cars on the road for example.

In terms of the hassle with a defence, well it is true that if you are going to defend yourself then you have to put some effort in as the system is designed to process those who give in with the minimum of fuss. However, many people do fight and do win and even if you lose in court the penalty tends not to be significantly higher than the £60 and 3 points providing you are polite, respect the court and present a reasonable defence. The penalty can never be less than £60 and 3 points and in a simple speeding case (i.e. not 140mph in a 30 or something) the penalty tends to be in the region of £60 fine plus £35 costs, if requested, plus the 3 points. There are, of course, lots of resources available to anyone mounting a defence and sites such as pepipoo detail many defences and also give access to people who have defended their cases and won.

Getting an NIP in the post is far from a cut and dried situation in any respect.

druddle

If you get an NIP and want to contest it then you have to be prepared to go all the way and get a court summons to contest it.

Dave (7 months since alleged offence, not guilty plea and waiting for summons to magistrates court...........)