mad_dr

Wouldn't surprise me. Eyewitnesses AT THE TIME (as quoted on BBC website about an hour after the shooting) said that he ran on and was bundled over and shot.

Last night on the news, they were saying that the bloke sat down and was seated for some time before the armed cops came along. He then stood up and walked to one of the police officers who had identified him and was bearhugged and forced halfway along the carriage, back to the same seat. THEN he was shot.

Two VERY different stories and - of the two - I'm more inclined to believe the impartial eyewitness, myself but neither have any credibility without evidence, which I have yet to see.

Suresh

Whatever the truth of this sorry incident, let's not forget that the guy shouldn't have been in the country in the first place. Being shot dead by the police for not having a visa is rather a high price to pay of course.

Brit_in_Japan

I don't think it's a hoax, you only have to look at the scenes of crime photograph which accompanied the report to see that this came from official sources, if not by official means.

What Paul wrote earlier I think is worth repeating:-
"people see things from differeing angles and at different times, not like TV drama/documentaries where you catch all the action in order from start to finish.

People/witnesses where scared (for good reasons) and maybe their brains filled in bits they wanted to or thought they has seen."

Eye witness reports are going to be contradictory to some degree as people are not focussing on the same thing at the same time. The only exception in this instance would be the police following this man. But both this latest report and the eye witness reports agree that this guy was held down on the ground before being shot multiple times at point blank range. You have to ask, if they can get close enough to a suspect to grab them and clamp their arms to their side, do they need to shoot them in the head?

7 Foot

I'm sorry but I just don't see how anyone could think somebody who was sat down reading a paper on the train could be mistaken for someone who ran onto a train, tripped up and was jumped on.

In reports on TV yesterday they also stated that 3 bullets missed. How does that happen if he is pinned and you are firing at point blank range?

khany

Knew the truth would come out sooner or later......

It has already been proven by the McPherson Report that the BNP (British National Police) are institutionaly racist...the only reason they shot this Brazillian lad is because he looked asian & unfortunalty lived in a block of flats that were under surveillance.

-He didnt run to the tube station and jump over the ticket barriers. He walked and bought a ticket.

-He wasnt wearing a big jacket...infact he had a jean jacket on which is clear to see from the CCTV camera footage from within the tube which shows him lying on the floor dead.

-He was already restrianed when he was shot.

If he was running as the Britsh National Police claim....where is the CCTV footage to prove this?.....where is the CCTV footage to show him jumping over the barriers in the tube station or were they conveniently not working that day?

-Where is the survielance they talk about? why should I believe them?

David Lock

How long should we give Sir Ian Blair? 48 hours?

rr_ww

But I could fake a series of pictures. All I'd need is a mate with a camera, and some old spent shell casings (which you can get from anywhere) Then get mate to lie on the floor whilst the trains empty.


Thats one of the most stupid things I've EVER had the mis-fortune to read on SN. Are you attempting to make a serious contribution to this thread or are you try to make a ficticious sensationalist politicaly motivated statement to the media?

The investigation team (IPCA? ) has NOT leadked this info. Scotland Yard aren't commenting. Please identify this crap as "the truth"

Idiot

If its PROVEN to be a cover up. And not just a **** up. Then sure, he'll have to go.

IMHO if you watch ITV news you want your head examining. Its pure drivel written to inflame people! Its the TV equivilent of the Daily Mail. Which put it fairly low on the list of authority. I watched it yesterday, and noticed that they've stopepd referring to the report as leaked but as facts!

rr_ww

I dont think any news service is impartial. But thats not my point. ITV do seem to pander to the lowest denominator. They trump stories up top make people angry. A story on immigration will be told in the style of

"the floodgates are open, these foreigners are taking your babies and running over your kittens"

Whilst I DO know the immigration service is in dis-array. Making idots at home fuming mad from sensationalist reporting isnt the answer.

SJ_Skyline

From CNN:

At point blank range? I just can't see how Blair can refuse an enquiry now.

Reality

ITV News is $hite - but there seems to be a lot of credence given to these documents from all sorts of quarters.

It's been nearly a month since this guy was gunned down - what's taking the IPCC so long to come to it's conclusions ?

Rats everywhere .

MJW

The only crime de Menezes committed was living in the same block as a terrorist suspect the police had under surveillance. Apparantly the officer who was supposed to be on obs when de Menezes left the tower block had gone to take a leak and therefore failed to accurately identify the suspect. de Menezes was allowed to board two buses, which if you think about it is lunacy if he's a suspected suicide bomber. He was also allowed to enter the tube station which was a big no-no in current police policy. The armed officers who were supposed to be working alongside the surveillance team did not respond quickly enough to stop him getting on the buses or into the tube station.

With regard to the 3 shots that missed, it's quite feasible even for a trained armed police office even at point blank. Anyone who's loosed off ten 9mm rounds with an automatic pistol in quick succession will know the recoil can knock your aim off even with a weapon as reliable as a Glock 17.

rr_ww

I would hope the people shooting these weapons are strong enough to take the recoil. Another thing that makes me go hmmm. Is that the number of shots is rising. On the day it was 5 or 6. Then it went to 11. Last night ITV reported 14 shots!

Of course, ultimately its a **** up. An innocent man died. But I cant see how reporting theories, not supported by actual evidence, helps? And there seems to be a bandwagon rolling now for SIB's resignation. Solely on these 'facts'

Maybe in time we'll see a CCTV image of the guy running across the foyer area being pursued by policemen. Maybe we wont. But second guessing it isnt the answer IMHO. Shame ITV and various Tabloids dont want to take the adult line.

davegtt

here here. its all speculation, everybody knows how cr@p the media are at over hyping things and getting stuff wrong yet most people still bite when they do report something....

I think SIB will be still around until the official report is out.

Reality

Depends how many more Innocents are shot using his shoot to kill policy and how many more Terrorists aren't !

hedgehog

It occurs to me that the reason Blair doesn't know what happened is because he doesn't know what happened. As i have been at pains to point out previously it is fairly well established in other locations where similar action has been carried out that the last thing you need is some copper involved in a security operation. You want the police to walk around with guns to reassure the population but you don't actually want them shooting at people, especially not terrorists, and you don't want them knowing about your security operation. In Northern Ireland, for example, police, even the very specialist anti-terrorist lot, arrived at the scene as the people involved in the security operation departed never to be seen again. Apart from knowing that it was a security operation the police usually knew nothing about what happened or how it happened or who did it.

For all we know Ian Blair knows nothing more about the incident than what he saw on the CCTV pictures and he may have no access to the people who actually carried out the job. He may be nothing but a fall guy for a security operation which failed and in fact the leak may have provided him with information that he didn't know.

I'd guess that the leak and whatever else is going on is well stage managed to suit someones agenda. The more interesting question isn't why Blair lied by why he is staying quiet and taking the fall for someone else and who is behind the leaks and what is in it for them. If you knew that then you might be closer to knowing what is really going on.

MJW

I would suspect there'd be a certain amount of adrenalin affecting things as well considering the circumstances, irrespective of physical strength.

khany

Dont get your knickers in a twist...is your dad a police man?

And what are you trying to prove that the Police would never lie?

The Police aren't racist?

This guy deserved to die?

Show me proof that this guy jumped over the the turn styles?

Show me the proof that he had a big jacket on as the police claimed?

Show me the proof he was chased into the tube station?

Show me CCTV footage at the tube station?

Look how quickly Police found the CCTV footage of the 7/7 bombers....youre telling me that they havent got any footage of this brazzilian guy (who was under surveillance by the way) running into the tube station chased by police...jumping over turn styles with a big jacket on?

If the block of flats was under surveillance where is the footage of him leaving the flats with a big coat on as alledged?

Come on show the public?

I just want to be convinced that what the police say is the truth...is that too much to ask?

rr_ww

"I just want to be convinced that what the police say is the truth...is that too much to ask?"

Of course its not to much to ask.

But when you go accusing without any proof what good is it? Wheres the rationale? You grabbed the "IR" soundbite. Which instantly marked you as having bias against the Police. You went on the offensive in your first post. Then you try and cover up by asking more questions that you KNOW full well I or anyone else can't answer yet. You struck me as someone who loves Conspiracy Theories. You can point the finger, but your own arguments dont hold weight. Its the whole "I'll make something up to emphasise my point, but I want you to provide evidence that Im wrong!"

Its childish speculation.

khany

Not really....the police didnt waste time publicising what happned after the incident did they?........but we shud take that as gospel truth becos the boys in blue said?

There the ones in charge...why should i have to prove that he didnt jump over the turn styles etc i didnt kill him.

They shot the guy dead...they have to prove that it was not murder and this guy was not obeying calls to stop or surrender.

In my opinion there are more racist police than non-racist....didnt get that from any tabloid....just my opinion based on experience and what i see around me.

The Police accused this guy of running and doing all the things which lead to him being shot...where is their rational? are they just as bad as me then?

and yes I am biased against the police.....

why cant they answer the question?....and more importantly where is the CCTV footage....cant they find it...or is it hidden/destroyed because it may just reveal the truth?

unclebuck

Why do you assume any of us would say something like that at any time?

You've only been on here 5 minutes and already you think your some kind self appointed of personality judge.

I would suggest that stupid inflamatory comments like make you the more likely to be the 'Sun reader' type.

Reality

It's called Humour Buck. Sorry you didn't get it

Check My Location - Jasey's been around here longer than you - Newbie

7 Foot

Hmmmmm . . .
Double Hmmmmm

Not buying that I'm afraid.

Khany - you are not going to win this one. You've admitted you are biased 'against the police' and you dismissed what was originally reported in the media as rubbish only to leap on these recent reports claiming they are completely true.

You are coming across as hot head who will believe anything that makes the police look bad, irrespective of evidence or lack thereof.

What concrete proof have you got to back up these recent media reports?

Brit_in_Japan

From what I can piece together from various reports, Menezes was seated, stood up when there was shouting and the word "Police" was used. He was grabbed by a policeman, arms clamped ot his side and (I'm guessing) the momentum of the policeman rushing up grabbing him pushed him back towards/onto the seat and then they pulled him onto the floor of the train.

So he was a moving target and the policeman who shot him would obviously not want to shoot his colleague who had his arms pinned. So I can see how he could miss even from very close range.

rr_ww, have you taken a look at that photograph? Do you really think it is faked? They also had many other photos which ITN said were far too graphic to show. I guess they are all fake too?

TelBoy

Smiley or not, that ain't called for mate. Not appreciated.

7 Foot

Oh stop being so sensitive.

Tissue? :don'tcry:

Reality

Apologies to UB, Telboy & ajm.

davegtt

Wo said anything to suggest that? What we're saying is the media DO lie....lol

Again, who said the Police we're racist. Why does this word have to be brought into a sensible subject. Yes the guy wasnt exactly white but just because he was the victim doesnt mean its anything to do with race.

No, and none of us can speculate as to why he died. When the facts come out then people can decide for themselves why he died and if it was his own fault or the fault of the police.

Show us proof that he didnt?

Show us proof that he wasnt?

Show us proof he wasnt?

Nobody apart from the relevant authorities have this info.

Who said they aint... but it'll all be confiscated and under investigation. Im sure it'll be released in all good time.


See my previous answer


Im sure they will, be patient.


Dont we all, how hard is it to understand that its being investigated.... the Police wont have the evidence to hand out and say look, it'll be with the body who is dealing with the investigation.... Not hard to understand is it.

khany

davegtt

So now it turns out that the IPCC have sacked someone over the leak....so yes the leak did come from them didn't it.

Regarding the CCTV evidence which you claim the police will reveal.....it turns out that there is no CCTV footage because the Police removed the discs the day before and didnt put any new ones in there?....rather strange dont you think, you would have thought they would have put new recording discs in there at this time of great threat!!?

And its not just ITV news that is running this, its the BBC & Sky News.

Why shouldn't I believe what all the papers say...and whats on most news channels....because there is no concrete proof?

The same sort of concrete proof that Tony Blair duped the country regarding WMD in-order to go to war with Iraq?

I've got no confidence or trust in this goverment and you think i'm going to believe what the Police say on this matter?

davegtt

Fine believe what you like, not saying you shouldnt but why shout for answers now when we know its being looked into... Personally I take news reports with a pinch of salt. I cant be doing with listening to something 1 day only for the info to be corrected the next and then the following week we get ACTUALLY this is the truth... its all garbage. Doesnt effect me so I dont care simple