cts5555

only trying to give some advice, ive went through all the researching about 2 years ago. And have learned loads since. If my advice isnt wanted just say.

LG John

No, I/we appreciate it - its just a little heavy handed to say every honda owner with a supercharger wishes they had got a turbo. Many chose the supercharger because its very consistent with the stock cars power delivery and character just that its faster. A turbo charged S2000 for example would not drive anything like a VTEC honda.

I love turbo cars but to be honest if I was going FI on my S2000 I'd get a supercharger so that it still needs to be worked hard but delivers manic acceleration at the top end

MooseRacer

Which is exactly why I said superchargers are more suited to VTEC motors.

cts5555

i take it u guys aint driven turbo vtecs??, vtec kicks harder in mine than any NA build, and i have built and tuned NA too.

Do some more research then come back to me, PM me if u want any info/ contact for parts / places to start researching. I know my ****e when it comes to hondas.

Dark Blue Mark

Good info, ta.

FMU seems to work well on S/C applications, as I said, the amount of people using them sucessfully in the US is huge. Didnt know they did them for turbo's??

Clearly aftermarket engine management is always best, as its custom mapped to the car's mods. I will use the FMU until I can

1) Afford to buy an AEM ECU from the states
2) Find someone who knows how to map.

Good mappers on VTEC's seem to be very very rare in the UK. Think Jakan are well respected, but there are so few people running with modded S's, so experience will be limited. Do you know anyone who has mapped an F20C? Would be useful to know if so.

Again, I agree with you that turbo is the way to go if you want big power. My view on the car is that its is already very quick, and the S/C fits with what I want. You're right on the power delivery, but the standard S has its peak power way up top, the SC just shifts everything up:
http://videos.streetfire.net/Player....6-3D620F80484E


The vid above is a Comptech and the only other guy I know of in the UK with a SC.

My problem with Turbo's on the S is that its totally new ground over here, the only 2 guys to do it spent 10's of £000's doing it and lost out big time upon sale.

MB

super6four

Hmmm that is a bit of a sweaping statement. Better in what way, every way? I think not. Everything has it's plus and minus points. Talking of the particular examples you have mentioned. I myself have a Supercharged CTR. It is running low boost (4psi) this helps keep the EGT's down helping to promote longeveity. Ok I know the jackson System I have is not the most efficient. but I'll trade off 30 bhp to get my extra 80 anyday. The extra torque (not so much that I loose traction) is as much as I want when pushing 280 fly BHP through the front wheels. Sure I could put a turbo on, crank up the boost (CPL have a 400 bhp CTR and a guy in Poland has 600, yes really lol). Both down the strip are quick, when they get traction.

However for everyday driving I find the SC more than enough, the install is simpler, is more proven (on the CTR anyway). 280 - 300 bhp is about as mutch as I would want through the front wheels on a daily driver, so just saying a Turbo is better because you can have way more power is pretty mutch pointless. Drivability is the key, and reliability. Oh and I am still running standard internals, and drivetrain.

So if I wanted to build the fastest Civic down a strip I may fit a turbo and crank the boost up, but for daily driving it gives me as much power as I want. Anymore and I may as well have bought a Scooby (like the wife did)

Dark Blue Mark

Can I ask who did your mapping?

MB

super6four

Dan at Abbey M/S on Hondata K-Pro. Here is my Dyno. Note how smooth and linear, as someone said above it feels just like a N/A car (except for the tie fighter-esque scream at 6-8500 revs. Oh and at a recent J Tuner thrash got 151 mph from a standing start, till I checkend out...ok not quite as good as the Essex Scooby crew did when they were there lol. But not bad for a Civic

Dark Blue Mark

Nice! The Cam change has gone though?!

I would look at Hondata but they dont do the S at the moment.

MB

super6four

If you look you can still see it, a bit (changeover is now 4k). It means I can cruise at 80 all day long, off boost (The jackson Charger has a part throttle by-pass valve) and off ca, So it is 'fairly' economical. As you pointed out though you can not feel any changeover. Was never as strong on the CTR as on the old B series for example.

MooseRacer

DBM - there's a guy called Henry something or other who's a damn fine Honda mapper, I'll dig out his details for you if you like.

Might be a bit far away though as he's up in Scotland

Dark Blue Mark

Cool, ta.

MB

Dark Blue Mark

Ps, with regard to timing, the timing controller from Vortech has it's own internal map sensor, and is prgrammed from Vortech. The map supplied pulls under 3deg total timing retard.

It can be reprogrammed if you have the R4 software from Split Second.

The OEM ECU operates normally with the Timing controller installed. The controller sends an offset crank position input signal to get the PCM to retard the timing. The PCM still thinks it is running as much advance as possible.

(Info I gleaned from S2Ki)

MB

vindaloo

With S2000s and CTRs, ITRs, surely the main issue is how to manage or modulate the power delivery. These cars will spin their wheels or themselves all day long in the wrong weather conditions - wet or wet/slippery.

A supercharger's output can be more finely controlled with the throttle than a turbocharger, given the right mapping.

It seems to me to be a case of horses for courses and if you want a fast road car, then the s/c wins on so many levels.

J.

Dark Blue Mark

Aye

MB

super6four

Exactly, power is nothing without control. It is true that the B series engines seem to really work well with Turbo's the Americans have been doing this for years. Of course you can have a drivable Turbo street application as well as a Charger. It does not have to be big bhp. However for the newer engins, in particuler the i-vtec K series mappers are only recently (in tuning terms) getting to grips with the eus' available, even then you are limited really to Hondata, AEM is powerfull but I am still not convinced for the money you are getting anything different to K-Pro (though a good m8 of mine with an AEM DC5 would argue againsed me). There is MoTeC but it is exspensive, and for your average (not race head) Joe just overkill....plus with all the extra modules you need for extra functionality.

Going back to the power issue, again for everyday use as far as fron wheel drive goes there is no practical reason to choose a Charger over a turbo....performance wise. You can with iether excede the limits of tractability. I know of a CTR pushing 320 bhp running 11 psi. It does have water injection but no form of chargecooling (though for his oils sake I have told him to fit an oil cooler asap). With a turbo all the conversions I have seemn off course have a bloody great intercooler on the front and plumbing that would give Super Mario knightmares.

If I wanated to go up the strip as quick as possible I would slap on a Turbo whack up the boost and stick on a set of Micky Thompsons

cts5555

U can make up your own minds, but a turbo vtec makes a much more comfortable daily driver than u would think. Anyone wanna come for a ride?? You'll change your mind.

Cars i have built and tuned ( all B series )

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

http://www.civicjordan.co.uk/forum/t...acc0976a1ba6fd

http://www.civicjordan.co.uk/forum/t...acc0976a1ba6fd


The jordan is mine, ive been through a few different builds. Take a look at the red eg's dyno runs vids, and the 12.9et @ the pod.

MooseRacer

o/t but I'm sure yours would sell on ebay - might have to get past a few timewasters first though.

cts5555

It'll be going on ebay soon, my p1 has just ' gone ' big ends, so i can have some more fun in the civic before it goes!!