Fuel protest drive
#31
Originally Posted by ajm
Pull yourself together! No need to get all wobbly lipped because I pulled you up on being a bicycle nutter!
1) The prices have been too high for YEARS! Fuel duty has risen substantially in that time and accounts for virtually all the difference in price between here and certain other countries where the government somehow seems to survive without raping the motorist for the absolute maximum they can pay.
2) The definition of "reasonable price" is not the absolute maximum people can pay. Would you be happy to see food prices increase until just the point people start starving?
3) If the UK has a £35bn deficit then the government should stop pissing it up against the wall! We pay more and more in tax every year and we get less and less in return. They have no business raising taxes whilst they are still spunking millions on domes, paying miscreants to turn up to school and funding disabled ethnic minority lesbian art foundations!
Most of us can see what needs done. I'm very apolitical on this one. Fuel duty is not the first thing that needs reduced as a priority.
#32
Originally Posted by unclebuck
Not to mention the funding of anti-motorist green nutcase cycling organisations such as Sustrans and Transport 2000.
UB
UB
#33
Interesting public sector numbers employed stats
Here's where the money's going - and haven't things improved across the public sector board
72,000 extra people employed by King Tony this year - No wonder he got back in !
72,000 extra people employed by King Tony this year - No wonder he got back in !
#34
What I find SO amusing is that if this board had existed in the mid 90's, you'd all have been moaning about the bloomin' Tories and how unfair taxation was and it was time for Labour to be in power to change things.
10 years later, you're moaning about bloomin' Labour and how unfair taxation is....
Oh how I laugh
10 years later, you're moaning about bloomin' Labour and how unfair taxation is....
Oh how I laugh
#35
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Originally Posted by imlach
Of which I'm not, but there you go....resorting to petty jibes which don't advance the discussion has always been your pathetic style.
Fuel prices are not HUGELY different within the EU. It's swings & roundabouts as overall taxation always is. France are not paying 20p/litre for example...they're up at 1.40 euros too...
Petrol has not risen hugely beyond inflation. It was 80p/litre at times a decade ago....for personal usage, fuel is a luxury item. Unlike staple food.
I never reaslised that getting to work was a luxury. I must be more grateful in future for the privilege of being free to move around on the roads I pay for.
Public spending is never popular. As I said before, the majority of the people who voted, voted for it....if they got taken in by the policies, that's annoying.
Most of us can see what needs done. I'm very apolitical on this one. Fuel duty is not the first thing that needs reduced as a priority.
Most of us can see what needs done. I'm very apolitical on this one. Fuel duty is not the first thing that needs reduced as a priority.
#36
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Interesting. Let's look at it today, about 62p (approx) is tax, so 62% of the total is tax. That's a lower %age of tax than 15 years ago!!!!
#37
Originally Posted by ajm
Why just compare with Europe? 42p per litre in Guernsey.
We are not debating prioritires here with other examples of overtaxation, we are simply saying that fuel is overpriced, and that the majority of that is because of tax, and as a consequence we have a right to be miffed about it.
I'll let you carry on with your pathetic jibes anyway. It shows a certain maturity
#38
Originally Posted by ajm
2) The definition of "reasonable price" is not the absolute maximum people can pay. Would you be happy to see food prices increase until just the point people start starving?
#39
And don't forget the tax on the Oil companies - That all adds to the cost of petrol - which is then taxed again (and then has VAT added). Then there's the tax on the Oil Company employees and the tax on their sub-contractors etc etc etc.
Let's face it - if it wasn't for Tax petrol would cost 2p a barrel (allowing for inflation).
Let's face it - if it wasn't for Tax petrol would cost 2p a barrel (allowing for inflation).
#40
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Originally Posted by unclebuck
Yep. Road tax and MOT tests will become madatory for all bicycles as will road charging, parking fines etc.
The potential for raising revenue will be enormous - and it'll be green and sustainable. Happy times lie ahead for the carrot crunchers.....
The potential for raising revenue will be enormous - and it'll be green and sustainable. Happy times lie ahead for the carrot crunchers.....
Seiously if you've concerns about the here and now then fair enough, but the scoobynet doomsday book is yet to be published
#42
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Originally Posted by imlach
Any organisation that doesn't share your opinion are nutters are they?
I don't mind these people having whatever opinions they want, however when they try to force them onto the population at large as these organisations are doing they cross a line in the sand and become zealous fanatics - hence, green lentil munching nutters.
Did you know that Hitler was a strict vegetarian?
#44
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Originally Posted by Abdabz
Seiously if you've concerns about the here and now then fair enough, but the scoobynet doomsday book is yet to be published
#46
Originally Posted by imlach
Well, the majority of people who voted elected them and that's how democracy works.
It's just a shame that so many didn't use their vote, as the majority of the voting population did not vote them in.
Another lesson in why you should use your vote.
It's just a shame that so many didn't use their vote, as the majority of the voting population did not vote them in.
Another lesson in why you should use your vote.
Not normally picky me but the majority of the voters actually voted Conservative.
#47
Originally Posted by scoobylav
Not normally picky me but the majority of the voters actually voted Conservative.
#48
source
Labour 9,566,618
Conservative 8,785,941
Lib Dem 5,985,414
DUP 241,856
SNP 412,267
Sinn Fein 174,530
Plaid Cymru 174,838
SDLP 125,626
UUP 127,414
Respect 68,094
Ind Kid Hosp 18,739
UKIP 605,973
Green 257,695
BNP 192,746
Scottish Soc 43,514
Veritas 40,481
Alliance 28,291
Scottish Grn 25,760
Liberal 19,068
Others 252,466
Turnout 27,148,975
Labour 9,566,618
Conservative 8,785,941
Lib Dem 5,985,414
DUP 241,856
SNP 412,267
Sinn Fein 174,530
Plaid Cymru 174,838
SDLP 125,626
UUP 127,414
Respect 68,094
Ind Kid Hosp 18,739
UKIP 605,973
Green 257,695
BNP 192,746
Scottish Soc 43,514
Veritas 40,481
Alliance 28,291
Scottish Grn 25,760
Liberal 19,068
Others 252,466
Turnout 27,148,975
#49
Originally Posted by SJ_Skyline
source
Labour 9,566,618
Conservative 8,785,941
Lib Dem 5,985,414
DUP 241,856
SNP 412,267
Sinn Fein 174,530
Plaid Cymru 174,838
SDLP 125,626
UUP 127,414
Respect 68,094
Ind Kid Hosp 18,739
UKIP 605,973
Green 257,695
BNP 192,746
Scottish Soc 43,514
Veritas 40,481
Alliance 28,291
Scottish Grn 25,760
Liberal 19,068
Others 252,466
Turnout 27,148,975
Labour 9,566,618
Conservative 8,785,941
Lib Dem 5,985,414
DUP 241,856
SNP 412,267
Sinn Fein 174,530
Plaid Cymru 174,838
SDLP 125,626
UUP 127,414
Respect 68,094
Ind Kid Hosp 18,739
UKIP 605,973
Green 257,695
BNP 192,746
Scottish Soc 43,514
Veritas 40,481
Alliance 28,291
Scottish Grn 25,760
Liberal 19,068
Others 252,466
Turnout 27,148,975
#50
Originally Posted by AC-scoobie
See democracy don't work, only a third of us wanted that scum bag blair in charge, first past the post isn't democracy it's a joke.
PR should be brought in ASAP.
The only slight downside of PR is that you often end up with no overall majority, which can make getting things done a bit harder.
#51
Originally Posted by AC-scoobie
See democracy don't work, only a third of us wanted that scum bag blair in charge, first past the post isn't democracy it's a joke.
So, under 20% of the voting population voted for Labour.
Makes you think.
#52
Hmmm...
Originally Posted by imlach
If you want to plainly ignore the facts of recent oil price increases, then so be it. You are free to protest as you see fit, but plain ignorance of the real issues at the heart of the rise is naive, and will only make you appear stupid.
This is not a black & white issue, so be prepared for debate. The simple fact is that the UK currently has a £33bn budget deficit. In other words, Gordon Brown is short of £33bn. To reduce fuel duty, would require increasing this deficit. To avoid that, taxes have to be recouped elsewhere....many people don't want other stealth taxes applied just to reduce fuel by a few pennies.
Still, stick your head in the sand if you like.....
This is not a black & white issue, so be prepared for debate. The simple fact is that the UK currently has a £33bn budget deficit. In other words, Gordon Brown is short of £33bn. To reduce fuel duty, would require increasing this deficit. To avoid that, taxes have to be recouped elsewhere....many people don't want other stealth taxes applied just to reduce fuel by a few pennies.
Still, stick your head in the sand if you like.....
I have to travel quite a distance to goto work. I drive an array of cars that with the exception of a Citroen AX (Classy!) are not exactly the most fuel efficient cars in the world, if this fuel protest does go off next week (as I sincerely hope it does!), I will be fully in support of it, even if it means cycling/staying in a hotel so that I can get to work.
Enough is enough. 5 years ago, the people of the UK grew a set of *****..... would be nice to know they haven't been castrated!
#53
Originally Posted by CavT
The UK has had a deficit since time began, just like every country other than Saudi Arabia (big fuel producer!). Gordon Brown isn't going to clear the deficit alone with the fuel tax, and frankly, I don't want him blowing all my money trying to reduce it so quickly.
No-one said that the aim is to clear the deficit SOLELY through fuel duty. The point is, the chancellor will be under pressure NOT to increase the deficit further, which cuts in fuel duty would cause.
The Government are perpetuating the myth that Hurricane Katrina, Iraq and OPEC are the sole bad guys here.
- Soaring demand from China & India
- Production issues in USA/Ecuador/Venezuala/Iraq/etc
- The Yukos issue in Russia was also an issue earlier in the year
- Refinery fires in USA
- Hurricane Katrina knocking out Gulf Of Mexico rigs/production/refineries
- Fear factor of more hurricanes/production issues
- Speculative traders on the worldwide commodity exchanges considering all the above and reflecting the fear factor in the futures prices.
- Large companies (eg airlines) speculatively trading oil futures to protect themselves against further rises
In all of this, the government have NOT raised fuel duty in the last year or two. It has been deliberately frozen, and also the planned fuel duty rise for Sept 05 has been scrapped.
So, perhaps you could outline what the UK government has done to so hugely influence worldwide oil prices. You've mentioned they're at fault, but not given a reason why.
Last edited by imlach; 08 September 2005 at 06:48 AM.
#54
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Originally Posted by imlach
Well, the majority of people who voted elected them and that's how democracy works.
#55
Originally Posted by OllyK
Wrong - 1/3 of the people that voted, voted for them, which means 2/3 of the people that voted did not vote them in. The majority voted against them and they STILL got in. But our inadequate voting system is a different issue.
Last edited by imlach; 08 September 2005 at 08:41 AM.
#56
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Originally Posted by imlach
Aye, pretty pathetic when all you can talk about in your arguments against are mocking bicycles & spouting opinions, not facts. Yeah yeah....mature comments about "carrot crunching". Saying that fuel duty is too high is an opinion, NOT a fact. Pathetic.
I present facts.
1) Fuel duty has not risen to cause these high prices.
2) Prices may be high, but you all keep buying the stuff, so obviously not high enough yet! ie, demand is not falling
3) The UK budget deficit is £35bn. There is no scope for tax cuts.
Care to disprove these three FACTS?
I present facts.
1) Fuel duty has not risen to cause these high prices.
2) Prices may be high, but you all keep buying the stuff, so obviously not high enough yet! ie, demand is not falling
3) The UK budget deficit is £35bn. There is no scope for tax cuts.
Care to disprove these three FACTS?
2 - Petrol isn't an out an out luxury, you can't just stop using it over night, usage can be reduced if home working is supported / enforced by the governement along with better public transport and changes to housing policy.
3 - Bollox. We only have a defecit due to Brown's pi$$ poor management of the exchequor. If he kept his spending in check and the government as a whole looked to cut waste and become more efficient, it would cost us less and so we would need to pay less tax.
#57
Originally Posted by OllyK
1 - I agree, but VAT is percentage based and so the more base oil prices rise, the more the exchequor gets via that anyway.
3 - Bollox. We only have a defecit due to Brown's pi$$ poor management of the exchequor. If he kept his spending in check and the government as a whole looked to cut waste and become more efficient, it would cost us less and so we would need to pay less tax.
#58
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I'm afraid it's not as simple as putting it down to just demand and supply. You have to also look at the price elasticity of demand of the product - in this case, the quantity of petrol purchased/consumed changes proportionately less than the change in price. Hence petrol is an inelastic product, purely because the majority of individuals either aren't physically able to, or refuse to, abandon the product and/or find substitute products.
However, surely that does not take away their right to kick up a fuss regarding the cost, regardless of who's to blame?
However, surely that does not take away their right to kick up a fuss regarding the cost, regardless of who's to blame?
#59
Originally Posted by G-STAR
I'm afraid it's not as simple as putting it down to just demand and supply. You have to also look at the price elasticity of demand of the product - in this case, the quantity of petrol purchased/consumed changes proportionately less than the change in price. Hence petrol is an inelastic product, purely because the majority of individuals either aren't physically able to, or refuse to, abandon the product and/or find substitute products.
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Your stance is that individuals/businesses should simply stop buying/consuming petrol from forecourts across the UK, and my argument is that it's not as easy as that; significantly influencing the global demand for oil isn't achievable via that method.