imlach

So your one individual journey last Saturday solely represents the whole issue of unviable trains does it?

Dracoro

People swallow the costs because they CAN and they WANT to. Else they'd get a job that's local or move closer to their workplace, not leave the area where relatives live etc. They'd think more about journeys, share cars, drive more economically etc. Either that or they'd find that public transport has to be a viable option if they really need to get to work. Unpleasant yes, inconvenient yes, awkward yes but unviable no.

In turn business will still need the workers so they'll have to create workplaces outside the darn centre of overcrowded cities and towns if they are to get the staff. All comes down to supply and demand.

unclebuck

Not everyone chooses to live in a bedsit and ride around the park on a bicycle all day.

People who have families, commute distances to work, are forced to shop 'out of town' etc are car dependent.

davegtt

OK, so using your car is cheaper than using the train (by a country mile) whats the problem? in retrospect petrol isnt all that expensive then is it? quite a cheap alternative compared to public transport

also what car was you driving? Scoob? could have bought a cheaper car pocketed the difference and spent only £5 on fuel that night?!?

So its not too expensive yet is it?

davegtt

Exactly, car dependant, not performance car/ gas guzzling dependant. I bet 40% of the population could save money each your by getting a better/economical car....

imlach

No, neither do I, but if you're happy in your damp bedsit staring at your rusty penny farthing all night, so be it.


Funny, that applies to my situation perfectly.
- work is 'out of town over 12 miles away'
- have a family
- shop at all sorts of places

Yet I am not forced into being car dependent.
Perhaps your issue is just one of laziness and unwillingness to consider other alternatives.

suprabeast

yes i could drive a cheaper car but i can afford not to so for me its not an issue. My only problem with the large tax is that the money isn't reinvested back into the roads, i wouldn't mind paying large sums to drive on nicely surfaced roads but we don't even have that

davegtt

thats a better argument bout time sombody said something sensible for the other side of the coin.... This is my biggest gripe with paying what it costs. the fact that its not put into the system. Not saying it all should because we all know that any tax you pay on anything isnt put all back into the system its been took from, but it would be nice if the roads where in better condition.

imlach

Come back once you've read up about taxation and how the proceeds are widely distributed amongst ALL of a country's functions

....quit your whinging then

suprabeast

thats just one prime example, i can give you hundreds more

suprabeast

im not complaining, i just started off explaining the mentality of most of the general public and why they are getting fed up with fuel costs.

And i know how taxation works to suit all of the countries functions, which is very nice except for the gfact i don't see why i should pay through the nose for things to pay for other services that i dont even use OR are not even available to me just because i work my a*se off to earn decent money

davegtt

yeah but your paying through your nose to pay for childrens education (might not have kids yet but Im sure you will 1 day? as most people will/do) paying for the NHS, never been to hospital? even for a little cut on your head from falling over or something? paying for the Doctors surgery that you visit everytime you have a cold. etc.... Theres many things it pays for, theres not many things it doesnt pay for that you'll never use (well apart from Dole, council estates etc which you never know 1 day you might well be claiming? )

imlach

Funny, no-one has yet come back to me on WHY they think they are paying "through the nose" for fuel......

As you've already clearly stated, it STILL works out cheaper than using public transport and taxis.

So, HOW is it "too expensive"? Facts & figures please.

Dracoro

I can give hundred, wait thousands, wait HUNDREDS of thousands, actually MILLIONS of examples where public transport IS viable and they use it, like myself, every day to get to work.

The country won't stop if fuel costs get high. people will walk, ride, get public transport, move closer to work, get jobs closer to home etc. people will make journeys when they HAVE to, NOT when they want to or would like to.

People lived and survived way before the invention of the motor car and they will again if need be. Personally I love the freedom and joy driving gives and hope that things will stay that way (at least in my lifetime) but I'm not spoilt enough to think things will always be this way and if/when that time comes, I'll take it on the chin and move on.

Leslie

I expect the real irritation is how these excessive taxes are spent. This sorry lot have no interest in the good of the electorate and the money is thrown at various organisations who use it initially to feather their own nests.

All that money in fuel tax and the £20 billion+ from road fund tax don't go to making life easier for the motorist such as mending or making new roads and we are getting fed up of being robbed for their strange PC ideals and committees who do nothing for the rest of us.

Les

Dracoro

Vote them out then. Thing is enough people are happy enough to have them back in and note enough dislike them enough to vote the Torys in.

Dream Weaver

Fuel is too expensive because we pay more than ALL of our neighbours in Europe.

As for public transport, you may be OK near Edinburgh, or those in London, but there are no trains or buses going anywhere near where I live. The only choice for the train is to Preston (Manchester is closer, but no direct route), and the skanky buses only run every hour - a train journey to London for me requires a lift to Manchester first, or train to Preston (North), then change and go South to London.

Thats not a viable public transport system in my eyes.

Dream Weaver

High tax takes from the successful and gives to the bone idle, so now Labour are in "power" they wont leave for a while as there are too many scroungers in the country.

Those scroungers are quite happy to live as they are, benefitting from those of us that actually work and pay tax so they will vote labour along with the PC/tree hugging brigade.

All this rose tinted nonsense about the current taxation paying for education, NHS etc is just bollocks. Its a sad place we live in when TV adverts ask us for £2 a month for cancer research, yet the government is quite happy to spend billions bombing Iraq or housing asylum seekers/dole dossers/idiots.

davegtt

Think it should be introduced that you have to be paying towards the countries finances to be allowed to vote after all your voting for how the countries money should be spent in most cases, so surely if your not contributing to the system you should be allowed a vote..

I think this is fair

Dracoro

That makes it the most expensive. I makes it very expensive. BUT how does it make it 'too' expensive??? If something is 'too' expensive that surely means they can't afford it but clearly people CAN afford it and probably use their cars far more than their european counterparts.

Dream Weaver

Fair point, just the same as **** I suppose, though wouldnt it be called "unaffordable" then.

Its all relative, but something being too expensive is personal opinion.

imlach

Untrue.
We do NOT have the highest prices in Europe.
Holland, Norway, Denmark, Belgium are all higher.
France, Germany, Italy it costs about the same.

Hmm.....next?

Dream Weaver

Not according to some fuel survey last week. And I was refuelling in Italy on Sunday near to Rome, it was about 86p/litre near to the airport as well. That ****s on your theory a bit.

imlach

That was from the AA European petrol survey.
http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/

86p/litre? I paid 91p/litre in Scotland last week, so not hugely far apart really.

davegtt

our local asda are back down to 89.9p for UL

imlach

Exactly...
This myth about petrol prices in the UK being FAR above those in Europe is just piffle.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

I wonder if any of these arguments have been used before

Flatcapdriver

Successive European and US governments should shoulder some of the blame due to their constant tinkering with environmental legislation which has resulted in a mish mash of fuel grades and related fuel emissions resulting in a general unwillingness by oil companies to invest in additional refinery capacity because its so expensive. Look at the cost of refining European fuel compared to the US and tell me that governments are free of blame, let alone Brown's lack of understanding of supply side economics.

The Zohan

Very true, there is too much waste and ineffeiciency - i do some work for the govenrment/local government asnd see too much of it. I wont quote examples but there are many i know of.

Scooby.Newbie

The argument about 'too' expensive is just symantics, and it is the threshold that has most people up in arms, like when **** hit £5, or beer £3 a pint.

It is expensive to run the type of car that many on this site run, but it is out of choice, like the choice that I also make to smoke and drink slightly over the average recomended weekly alcohol intake

But its also the accumulation effect of taxes coupled with what we generally see as poor usage or distribution of those funds. If you stop and think what you actually pay on tax against each pound earn't it would make you cry, its not only the PAYE (upto 40% on some earnings) and NI, but also the road tax, council tax, VAT, tax on your savings, tax on the stuff that you leave when you finally shuffle of this mortal coil.

Its getting too much IMHO, and many people I see around me seem to be better and better off all the time for doing less and less. Yes, I do have a choice, I could move to a smaller house, get a smaller car, get a less well paid job so I paid less tax, but like many others I work, and have worked bloody hard to get where I am in life, im by no means well off, but do sometimes feel that i'm paying a little more than I should.