LUCKO

iTrader: (3)

totally agree with that statement

Gastro

forget it - its easier to try and convince people on this BBS that there are better cars than subarus - even in the twisties

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

WHAT!?!?!!? You take that back this instant young man!!!!!

NS04

SJ_Skyline

BBC News at 10 last night made a rather unfortunate statement in their headlines:

"George Best is in intensive care but stable, doctors say he is in high spirits"

David Lock

That caught my attention too.... Next comment will be that he's on a drip...

The Zohan

Never let the truth get in the way of a good slagging!

Flatcapdriver

It's got everything to do with his drinking because if he hadn't drunk his liver into extinction, then he wouldn't be in this position in the first place and whilst I have some sympathy for him the argument about alcoholism being a disease/addiction doesn't hold much water given the amount of people who have managed to beat it.

Leslie

DBW is right, we had experience here of caring for an alcoholic too and it is like an irrestistible disease once it has caught hold of you. I feel sorry for him in spite of his earlier liver transplant which saved him and then his subsequent drinking.

Going by the stories about the binge drinking which is going on now, there will be a good many more in the same boat.

Les

Drunken Bungle Whore

Quick challenge for those who think goiving up the booze is easy. Count up the number of drinks you have in an average week. BE HONEST! Compare it to the medical limits below.

Reduce your intake permanently to fall in line with these recommendations.






The sensible weekly limits are 21 units for men and 14 units for women. Units of alcohol are shown in the diagram above.

mattstant

I am way below that two kids under three, a mortgage and nursery fees/babysitters takes care of my drinking.
By friday night i have two cans at home and am instantly comatosed

By the way if anyone who thinks drinking had No part to play in a kindney infection needs a reality check.

SJ_Skyline

Based on those pictures, I had only 16 units last week!!

All on Friday

Gastro

Yes but where do draw the line.......

If you have a smoking related disease do you not offer someone medical treatment because they have had a heart attack ?
....so if you eat an unhealthy diet and develop cancer - don't treat ?
......so if you don't wear a seatbelt - you don't get treatment 'cos your stupid


........ this is a democratic society in a western world country that offers NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE.......

FYI - Best had his transplant and most of his medical treatment privately anyway so whats the problem ?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Other footballers have sent their best wishes, including

David Becksham

David Ginola

Stan Collymore....booze for me.

Sorry, couldn't resist

NS04

Drnaz_2000

Once you have problems like georgy did, such as cirrhosis, its not like getting a brand new liver with a transplant, its much more ikely to become damaged/diseased quickly than u would expect

Apple

My Mum died of cirrhosis of the liver 29th Dec last year She wasn't a drinker and it's listed on the death certificate as cryptogenic which means no obvious cause...

She couldn't have a liver transplant for various reasons and in a meeing with the consultant, Best's name was brought up. The consultant said point blank that he wouldn't have got the transplant carried out if it was anything to do with him - it was totally self-inflicted and tough sh*t -(maybe not exactly phrased in that was but meant the same). By having it privately he could pay his way out of a coffin for a few years to go back to being an alcoholic wife-beater...

You might guess I've no sympathy for the man - it's hard watching a loved one succumb to the disease and then having "the greatest footballing legend that ever lived" paraded in front of you on the telly and how we should all save him etc. I'm not bothered about football - Best was "before my time" and many other people have become ex-footballers and managed to survive...

The families of transplant donors and and the people who receive them are not identified to each other and rightly so - would you want to find out that a well meant organ donation potentially as a result of a traumatic experience had ended up in a person like Best who's squandered a second chance and is trying to look sorry for himself and expecting the rest of us to bend over backwards...

Andy

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Bang on! and I'm very sorry to hear about your mum mate.

NS04

Notorious

much respect!!

CyprusScooby

I totally agree with you Andy.


There are so many people out there that die because they can't get a liver transplant and just cause he was a famous footballer, he gets to skip the list!

AND he's a wife beater!!!!!!!

Flatcapdriver

That is a poorly thought out analogy because all of the above deserve treatment in the first instance but if you then continue to abuse that organ after treatment that is where you draw the line. Its also suspect given that a liver transplant is far more involved than the above and from an ethical point of view the choice of recipient is odd to say the least.

If you receive treatment for obesity, smoking related diseases or for not wearing a seat belt and once having received that treatment you continue to eat fatty foods or smoke then it's tought **** time.

As I said initially, who is more deserving? An incurable alcoholic or some child with liver disease. Regardless of how it was paid for, there is still a long and torturous waiting list for liver transplants which are suitable with cross matching etc etc.

Mr Sympathy

couple of points you may want to know before judgements are made.

Hepato-renal (Liver and Kidney) problems are very common post liver transplant, the liver is a robust organ, the kidneys are not, kidney failure post liver transplant is common yet rarely permanent, kidney infections post liver transplants are common, immunosuppression post any transplant exacerbates any infection and sepsis or septicaemia whilst uncommon is not rare. It is extremely unlikely that heavy drinking has contributed to any kidney involvement.

Secondly if he had his liver transplant privately, no-one on the NHS loses out at all, organs are offered to private patients AFTER no suitable NHS patient is identified, so dont say little tommy lost out, for george best to get his liver no-one lost out except the donor and his family who are brave enough to offer that organ in the first place, they make, nor are they expected to make any moral judgment on the recipient.

Leslie

Can't argue with that!

Les

Diablo

I find it hard to believe that George Best received a liver that was unsuitable for anyone on the NHS list.

If that was the case then fair enough. But if he dies, he dies. There is no one responsible for the position he finds himself in but George Best himself.

Hence zero sympathy from this keyboard.

If i had a "smiley" for "tosser" it would be right here.

OllyK

It's not hard, it's just a question of will power same as all the other "addictions". I used to drink approx 6 units per night, which is 42 units per week. I decided that was excessive, no health warnings or such and cut back to just drinking at the weekend for the most part. Now have between 12-16 units a week. No problem.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I understand what you are saying, but to some extent it's irrelevant as we are discussing the more general issue of whether someone should continue to receive treatment after they have knowingly and consistently indulged in behaviour which will undermine their treatment and exacerbate their condition. Even if no-one lost out on the liver in favour of George, there can be no denying that it is a waste of an organ and a slap in the face to the medical professionals who worked so hard to rectify a condition that HE had brought upon himself and the donor and their family, who, fortunately, will never know who benefited from their amazing gesture of kindness.

NS04

Gastro

Oh dear Oh dear....

You really are fighting within the midst of a very complex argument.

Thanks for your black and white view on those analogies but that is not what happens in the real world ..... as for being 'more deserving' what a load of old tosh - thats how you see it in your eyes my friend. I assume you don't work with people and the health care services you can imagine it - 'no sorry sir you committed a sin the second time - there is no room at the in for you now.....'.

While liver transplants are never given to people that are actively drinking (6 months abstinence and psychological assessments are made pre-transplant) and furthermore a second trasnplant is very unlikley in GB's case because he is currently drinking - the reasons aren't dont on a 10 point deserve scale ! The majority of people don't have much sympathy for GB but he's not an isolated case - just a high profile one. Just because he now has a septic complication - do you think he should be denied antibiotic treatment because he's still drinking ???

Gastro

PS waiting lists are for transplantation are not only driven by lack of donors but also complex compatibility issues - how do we know that that liver wasnt a split liver (ie two recipients) and that at that time point no one else had the same immunological profile for that liver (ie it would have been placed in the bin if there wasn't a suitable recipient)......

Gastro

Thank christ someone else is making sense

In all honesty, while the GB sympathy vote is not in question, if the majority posting on this thread had a little more cerebral tissue then this still wouldn't be being debated !!!!!

Then we wonder why the majority of complaints in the NHS come about - its because people don't U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-ND......

Gastro

Mr Sympathy

did you know people who wreck their livers with paracetamol overdoses get liver transplants?
did you know smokers who smoke right up to their operation still get heart by pass operations?
do you know for a fact that his persistent drinking (allegedly) has caused a septic complication? if you do i know a few liver surgeons who would be interested to know how you figured this out.
can we presume if you have a car crash that was your fault, well ok first time we will treat you for free but second time around send you the bill?

Mr Sympathy

[QUOTE=Diablo]I find it hard to believe that George Best received a liver that was unsuitable for anyone on the NHS list.
QUOTE]

sadly organs unsuitable for transplant are rejected frequently for a multitude of reasons, there isnt always someone suitable on the NHS list, if a private recipient is not identified or a supra urgent patient cannot receive the organ as an emergency measure, then sadly any organ goes to waste, such is life.