Andy F`s crash today
31 October 2005, 03:02 PM
#122
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They only run 1 car at a time on the top speed for (I presume) safety reasons, some cars are now quicker on the 1/4 than a lot of the top speed runs 
31 October 2005, 03:10 PM
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One aspect of caging my car is of course cost, which should be a small point all things considered. Although I doubt I could ever have one built for my car for £500 !!!
What I dont want, is to remove and destroy parts of the interior, in order to fit one. I dont want a horrible looking cage in my car, its that simple.
BUT, I also dont want to not be allowed to race should such rules come into force.
The weight of a cage doesnt bother me in the slightest. Its not like my car is a lightweight anyway.
If I was to have a cage fitted, I'd have to take it to the likes of Safety devices for a custom build, which would no doubt end up being very very expensive. In terms of both labour, and parts, unless I stripped the entire car before taking it to them.
I'd also want it fitted as snuggly and inconspicuosly as possible.
Apart from safety though, a cage in mine would probably offer massive benefits to shell rigidity. It is a bit wobbly
What I dont want, is to remove and destroy parts of the interior, in order to fit one. I dont want a horrible looking cage in my car, its that simple.
BUT, I also dont want to not be allowed to race should such rules come into force.
The weight of a cage doesnt bother me in the slightest. Its not like my car is a lightweight anyway.
If I was to have a cage fitted, I'd have to take it to the likes of Safety devices for a custom build, which would no doubt end up being very very expensive. In terms of both labour, and parts, unless I stripped the entire car before taking it to them.
I'd also want it fitted as snuggly and inconspicuosly as possible.
Apart from safety though, a cage in mine would probably offer massive benefits to shell rigidity. It is a bit wobbly
31 October 2005, 03:29 PM
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Andy, i believe they run the top speed runs in specified times, with no one else in the right lane simply due to insurance. Your point about TV's @ the quarter being higher than some @ the end 1.25 miles is highly valid.
Some of you may have noticed the subtle change in the commentators description of cars about to run. 95% of the cars are RWYB cars, 5% are regarded as top cars, ie competitors.
Stevie, i know what you are saying about the looks of a cage, and the practicality of a cage, the same thing has been going through my mind, but its been made up for me now. Its common sense.
Steven
Some of you may have noticed the subtle change in the commentators description of cars about to run. 95% of the cars are RWYB cars, 5% are regarded as top cars, ie competitors.
Stevie, i know what you are saying about the looks of a cage, and the practicality of a cage, the same thing has been going through my mind, but its been made up for me now. Its common sense.
Steven
31 October 2005, 03:46 PM
#126
I'm thankful that both Andy and Mikee were unhurt. We should learn from this though and I think that blame must lie with someone - certainly it would if there was a serious injury or fatality.
Somebody must be responsible for ensuring the surface is safe to run on and that responsibility does not lie with competitors.
I think after a number of spins on day the organisers should have realised it was very irresponsible to allow the event to continue. Sounds like it was an accident waiting to happen - one that could have been avoided.
Bob.
Somebody must be responsible for ensuring the surface is safe to run on and that responsibility does not lie with competitors.
I think after a number of spins on day the organisers should have realised it was very irresponsible to allow the event to continue. Sounds like it was an accident waiting to happen - one that could have been avoided.
Bob.
31 October 2005, 03:49 PM
#127
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I'm sure i saw a multipoint weld in impreza cage on e-bay the other day (although i think it was a 4door one)
I like roll cage's, i've a rear cage in my Legacy (might fit the front half but have to remove the dash to do it!) and it does make you feel much safer, and that'll only do 140ish.
Infact all 3 of my cars have cage's in
might have something to do with how i drive 
I would certainly think some rules should come in for the fast cars, every other form of motorsport has rules and regs for safety. Plus in these days of hightened 'Health and safety' there's allways someone who can be held responsible for any incident during an organised event.
Out of interest how many of you carry a fire extinguisher in your cars? Or would that add too much weight?
I like roll cage's, i've a rear cage in my Legacy (might fit the front half but have to remove the dash to do it!) and it does make you feel much safer, and that'll only do 140ish.
Infact all 3 of my cars have cage's in
might have something to do with how i drive I would certainly think some rules should come in for the fast cars, every other form of motorsport has rules and regs for safety. Plus in these days of hightened 'Health and safety' there's allways someone who can be held responsible for any incident during an organised event.
Out of interest how many of you carry a fire extinguisher in your cars? Or would that add too much weight?
31 October 2005, 03:57 PM
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My car has caught fire at an event, but still doesnt have a extinguisher.. Id quite happily have run against andy yesterday!, I could have been in mikee or andys position. All it takes is a seized engine, driveshaft/prop failure and you could potentially lock a wheel up!
I will be fitting a full weld in cage this winter, but then I can weld so it wont cost me too much!
David
I will be fitting a full weld in cage this winter, but then I can weld so it wont cost me too much!
David
31 October 2005, 03:58 PM
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A roll cage in a car can pose a danger if the occupants are not wearing a crash helmet.
Fine for a race car. Not always good for a road car.
Although in general, it probably is safer.
A fire extinguihser is something I have been meaning to get for a long time.
Fine for a race car. Not always good for a road car.
Although in general, it probably is safer.
A fire extinguihser is something I have been meaning to get for a long time.
Last edited by ustolemyname??stevieturbo; 31 October 2005 at 04:00 PM.
31 October 2005, 03:59 PM
#130
Andy
It did not have the signifigance then that it had later and while you were welcome to borrow my wheels and tyres, the performance of Paul's car, Mikee's and yours was in a league above everyone else so track conditions that were critical to you were less of a problem on the 1/4 to the slower cars ie everyone else.
With the state of the track, all I was doing when it was wet and as I do normally, was keeping as straight a line as possible on what looked like the dryest section but steering inputs to get the dry section when aquaplaning was already happening were a no no.
At least you got away without an RSSE.
Bob. I agree. We will have to differ. You are free to choose if you want to run at Elvington or not. If you do not like the price or conditions, vote with your feet. It is a WW2 aerodrome and hired on a limited number of occassions by Straightliners for RWB events. That is what yesterday was. From these events, which many of us have enjoyed for a number of years, starting with bikes, has spawned the Scooby Shootout and TOTB. It is not a permanent or dedicated drag track and there is no mechanical sweeping or draining equipmet. Nor would these be financially viable.
If you go again, look at the construction. Even if it stopped raining in the middle of the afternoon there would still be puddles there this morning. Even if an army of sweeping brushers had gone to work it would have been a mamouth task and totally futile while rain was still falling. You need to be practical.
Steven : Don't you think that there should be freedom to choose a roll cage, certainly for RWB. It is then upto the individual. If you wanted to IMPOSE roll cages, what would be the criterion? Cars in the 10s and below? or what?
How many RWB cars have rolled over?
Where did you roll. I was unaware you had so was it in the Scoob etc.
Andy has explained it from his perspective. It adds 40kg so if he has one and Paul does not, Paul has an advantage. Halldor/Gulli/ RCMS have run one for the last two years because they have had to because of Icelandic rules.
RWB has operated happily without regulation up to now and if you start regulating it the appeal will be lost to a lot of week-end enthusiasts because a roll cage is toally impractical for an every day car.
I now recall you telling me that earlier in the day Harvey, if only I didn't have the memory retention time of a goldfish !
With the state of the track, all I was doing when it was wet and as I do normally, was keeping as straight a line as possible on what looked like the dryest section but steering inputs to get the dry section when aquaplaning was already happening were a no no.
At least you got away without an RSSE.
Bob. I agree. We will have to differ. You are free to choose if you want to run at Elvington or not. If you do not like the price or conditions, vote with your feet. It is a WW2 aerodrome and hired on a limited number of occassions by Straightliners for RWB events. That is what yesterday was. From these events, which many of us have enjoyed for a number of years, starting with bikes, has spawned the Scooby Shootout and TOTB. It is not a permanent or dedicated drag track and there is no mechanical sweeping or draining equipmet. Nor would these be financially viable.
If you go again, look at the construction. Even if it stopped raining in the middle of the afternoon there would still be puddles there this morning. Even if an army of sweeping brushers had gone to work it would have been a mamouth task and totally futile while rain was still falling. You need to be practical.
Steven : Don't you think that there should be freedom to choose a roll cage, certainly for RWB. It is then upto the individual. If you wanted to IMPOSE roll cages, what would be the criterion? Cars in the 10s and below? or what?
How many RWB cars have rolled over?
Where did you roll. I was unaware you had so was it in the Scoob etc.
Andy has explained it from his perspective. It adds 40kg so if he has one and Paul does not, Paul has an advantage. Halldor/Gulli/ RCMS have run one for the last two years because they have had to because of Icelandic rules.
RWB has operated happily without regulation up to now and if you start regulating it the appeal will be lost to a lot of week-end enthusiasts because a roll cage is toally impractical for an every day car.
Last edited by harvey; 31 October 2005 at 04:09 PM.
31 October 2005, 04:05 PM
#131
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I think that in some of the other countries, where cages are required, rollovers are more common.
Most of their cars are sort of dedicated rwd drag racers, on slicks etc. they are cars that get their times through massive traction, as well as power.
But that also gives them a tendency to pull wheelies, which can lead to rollovers. So cages in those instances are very important.
Here, such things dont really happen.
Although, that doesnt mean one car could lose control and plough into another. Then a cage could be very vital. As could electric cutouts, fire extinguisher systems, flame proof overalls etc etc.
When I ran at Avon, I was told if I ran 10's, I'd have to wear a helmet.....I think I could handle that. Not sure how much safer it makes anything though.
Most of their cars are sort of dedicated rwd drag racers, on slicks etc. they are cars that get their times through massive traction, as well as power.
But that also gives them a tendency to pull wheelies, which can lead to rollovers. So cages in those instances are very important.
Here, such things dont really happen.
Although, that doesnt mean one car could lose control and plough into another. Then a cage could be very vital. As could electric cutouts, fire extinguisher systems, flame proof overalls etc etc.
When I ran at Avon, I was told if I ran 10's, I'd have to wear a helmet.....I think I could handle that. Not sure how much safer it makes anything though.
31 October 2005, 04:07 PM
#132
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Originally Posted by BOB'5
I'm thankful that both Andy and Mikee were unhurt. We should learn from this though and I think that blame must lie with someone - certainly it would if there was a serious injury or fatality.
Somebody must be responsible for ensuring the surface is safe to run on and that responsibility does not lie with competitors.
I think after a number of spins on day the organisers should have realised it was very irresponsible to allow the event to continue. Sounds like it was an accident waiting to happen - one that could have been avoided.
Bob.
Somebody must be responsible for ensuring the surface is safe to run on and that responsibility does not lie with competitors.
I think after a number of spins on day the organisers should have realised it was very irresponsible to allow the event to continue. Sounds like it was an accident waiting to happen - one that could have been avoided.
Bob.
As far as rollcages are concerned I wouldn't drive or be passenger in a car fitted with one without wearing a crash helmet. In the battle of skull vs roll cage I know which one would win
31 October 2005, 04:13 PM
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ozzy, know what you are saying, but do you think the metal behind the trim by your head would loose to the skull??
31 October 2005, 04:14 PM
#134
Many people will run the risk, given the option. The point is Andy shouldnt have had the option on whether to run or not.
I dont think it was anything to do with driver error. The problem was with the surface. When was the last time you walked up the strip and inspected it before deciding on whether to run or not? You dont. When the lights go green you should feel assured that the organisers have checked its safe to run.
I dont think it was anything to do with driver error. The problem was with the surface. When was the last time you walked up the strip and inspected it before deciding on whether to run or not? You dont. When the lights go green you should feel assured that the organisers have checked its safe to run.
31 October 2005, 04:18 PM
#135
For a roll cage to be effective you also need a four point harness, again something that is not practical in a daily driven car.
What competition??????????????????????
It was a RWB.
There is quite a difference.
What competition??????????????????????
Somebody must be responsible for ensuring the surface is safe to run on and that responsibility does not lie with competitors.
There is quite a difference.
31 October 2005, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Granby
looking at the conditions there is no way the cars should be running (in my opinion)
people can bicker all they want and tell us how its good value, blahh, blahh, blahh.
letting cars run in that spec in them conditions = speaks for itself
Last edited by ex-webby; 31 October 2005 at 04:40 PM.
31 October 2005, 04:24 PM
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Harvey, i dont disagree with what you are saying in respect of the RWYB cars, my point is, the sub 11s cars arent really ordinary cars are they? They have become track weapons, and whilst Andy, Paul, Mikee and Mark may be capable of driving them everyday, they arent there everyday transport, and they dont regard them as such (mikee may be the odd one out there).
Purely by the commentators differentiation between RWYB and Top cars, that tells me they are not road cars, and are serious about what they are doing, therefore simply abiding by a simple rule is neither here nor there.
Stevie sums up a potentially bad scenario. Imagine its dry, and someone has a blow out at speed?
My accident occurred nearly 4 years ago, and was on a straight piece of road, near Elvington, that i drive down everyday. It happened at 6:50 in the morning, and this is what was left.
What stopped it being far worse? The dog Guard, which was jammed in, and surprisngly acted as a mini roll cage.
Having been out of control at almost the same speed, in similar conditions, i can picture what Andy went through, and i for one would not want to chance my luck on escaping from another one like that?
I dont know if you watched any runs closely from behind the Caravan yesterday, but some people were fishtailing about wildly, with very little power, and very little skill. Hell, one car had to brake hard in 1st or 2nd to avoid hitting the cones seperating the 2 lanes!!
I dont wish to see it become overruled, as i am one of the biggest fans of this kind of car racing, especially at Elvington, but i dont want to see friends or anyone else injured out of lack of common sense when viewing the potential hazards.
Steven
Purely by the commentators differentiation between RWYB and Top cars, that tells me they are not road cars, and are serious about what they are doing, therefore simply abiding by a simple rule is neither here nor there.
Stevie sums up a potentially bad scenario. Imagine its dry, and someone has a blow out at speed?
Although, that doesnt mean one car could lose control and plough into another. Then a cage could be very vital. As could electric cutouts, fire extinguisher systems, flame proof overalls etc etc.
What stopped it being far worse? The dog Guard, which was jammed in, and surprisngly acted as a mini roll cage.
Having been out of control at almost the same speed, in similar conditions, i can picture what Andy went through, and i for one would not want to chance my luck on escaping from another one like that?
I dont know if you watched any runs closely from behind the Caravan yesterday, but some people were fishtailing about wildly, with very little power, and very little skill. Hell, one car had to brake hard in 1st or 2nd to avoid hitting the cones seperating the 2 lanes!!
I dont wish to see it become overruled, as i am one of the biggest fans of this kind of car racing, especially at Elvington, but i dont want to see friends or anyone else injured out of lack of common sense when viewing the potential hazards.
Steven
31 October 2005, 04:27 PM
#139
In yesterdays conditions I think most intelligent people went out and assessed the track conditions just like you do when you go on any track day or go out on public roads in unusual weather. From Andy's post earlier he said he checked the track condition on his first run. I think I was one of the first pairs and all I did on that first couple of runs was check the conditions, where the standing water was, where it was deepest etc. 19 sec easy run.
If you want to go to these things and your mummy allows you, then you have to take some responsibility yourself otherwise you should not be there.
If you want to go to these things and your mummy allows you, then you have to take some responsibility yourself otherwise you should not be there.
31 October 2005, 04:29 PM
#140
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Bob, driver error includes his/her own judgement. If the surface was cr@p with loads of standing water then going for it is dicing with danger. A driver should always has the ability and control to say no. I'm certainly no Angel and not criticising Andy, but sometimes we have to put our hands up rather than blaming someone else.
Yep, fair point David, but as Harvey says the roll cage has to be combined with other "proper" protection e.g. harness, racing seat, etc..
I've know a few lads that have rolled Impreza's and thankfully none of them have been seriously injured with a standard setup. I just feel a rollcage can be too stiff and rather than absorbing impact could make matters worse.
People with full race harnesses and standard car seats is another thing that makes e wince. I wouldn't be surprised if a std Turbo seat would snap at the base when asked to absorb the forces with a full harness.
Maybe I'm just being paranoid.
Yep, fair point David, but as Harvey says the roll cage has to be combined with other "proper" protection e.g. harness, racing seat, etc..
I've know a few lads that have rolled Impreza's and thankfully none of them have been seriously injured with a standard setup. I just feel a rollcage can be too stiff and rather than absorbing impact could make matters worse.
People with full race harnesses and standard car seats is another thing that makes e wince. I wouldn't be surprised if a std Turbo seat would snap at the base when asked to absorb the forces with a full harness.
Maybe I'm just being paranoid.
31 October 2005, 04:29 PM
#141
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i can remember posting somewhere on this board regarding roll cages in the past, and was shot down in flames as i was mainly going to be doing the RWYB days with the odd track day.
where is that greasemonkey tosser anyway?
where is that greasemonkey tosser anyway?
31 October 2005, 04:35 PM
#143
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Harvey, its not a competition by name, your right its a RWYB, but you try tell that to everyone who goes against their mate?
You wont believe how much grief i gave Andy and Paul before the opening run of TOTB this year. I arranged it, but then thought, hell they are going to be too competitive. I have seen it all season, and its even worse when they are on the same drag strip
I have to disagree, a RWYB is a competition, even if its against yourself. Are you seriously suggesting that the likes of Andy are going to turn up to not be competitive for want of a better word for giving 100%.
How did this happen if it wasnt a competition
Its not a question of your mummy 
allowing you to run, its about you applying common sense, but also somebody else applying common sense for when your common sense module of the brain switches off.
Micky, if you mate got charged £20 to get in, he either had 3 other people in the car or is telling a porky, it was a £5 to get in. I can remember that thread you refer to.
You wont believe how much grief i gave Andy and Paul before the opening run of TOTB this year. I arranged it, but then thought, hell they are going to be too competitive. I have seen it all season, and its even worse when they are on the same drag strip
I have to disagree, a RWYB is a competition, even if its against yourself. Are you seriously suggesting that the likes of Andy are going to turn up to not be competitive for want of a better word for giving 100%.
How did this happen if it wasnt a competition
BTW. I got the trophy for "Max Out Fastest Speed" using normal Vredstein tyres.
allowing you to run, its about you applying common sense, but also somebody else applying common sense for when your common sense module of the brain switches off.Micky, if you mate got charged £20 to get in, he either had 3 other people in the car or is telling a porky
, it was a £5 to get in. I can remember that thread you refer to.
31 October 2005, 04:38 PM
#144
Rollcages can be their own death traps, unless with other supported equipment (as already stated) like helmet, racing seat with big ears and harnesses.
What ever happened was unfortunate, and ultimately the driver is the one that should be aware of all the risks. Obviously this should not be about who was right and who was wrong.... motorsport can be dangerous and as such should be given that respect.
Regards,
Shaun.
What ever happened was unfortunate, and ultimately the driver is the one that should be aware of all the risks. Obviously this should not be about who was right and who was wrong.... motorsport can be dangerous and as such should be given that respect.
Regards,
Shaun.
31 October 2005, 04:41 PM
#145
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And its all very well you applying common sense harvey, but I have circa 600 bhp and was also running 'road legal slicks..' - yourcommon sense doesnt prevent me lining up against you.
David
Edited for clarity.. and grammar
David
Edited for clarity.. and grammar
31 October 2005, 04:46 PM
#147
Harvey: I think Steven has covered it in his post above (#144).
Ozzy: Events like this need to be regulated. This wouldn't have happened if the organisers called it off due to wet weather. The fact is they didn't call it off and watched one car spin off after another which in my book is irresponsible. Avon (which have substantially higher overheads) had no problem calling theirs off in the interests of safety so can't see why it would be a problem at Elvington.
Steven: Well said.
Ozzy: Events like this need to be regulated. This wouldn't have happened if the organisers called it off due to wet weather. The fact is they didn't call it off and watched one car spin off after another which in my book is irresponsible. Avon (which have substantially higher overheads) had no problem calling theirs off in the interests of safety so can't see why it would be a problem at Elvington.
Steven: Well said.
31 October 2005, 04:48 PM
#148
Steven : I do not think you can compare a road accident to Elvington and I agree you were lucky with your road accident.
How many cars have been on their roof at Elvington during RWB?????????????????????/
So what you are saying in effect is that if a car is capable of 10 second times and better it should have a roll cage? For RWB or Drag Racing? At present RWB is regulated by the organiser.
Who is going to police this?
Surely as responsible adults we are old enough to make our own informed decisions on what safety equipment we need and if weather is too adverse for our set up.
If we are not careful, RWB will become more regulated and less attractive to the masses who enjoy it. We will end up needing competition licences, roll cages, fire extinguishers, 4 point harnesses, sound regs, fuel regs, tyre regs and so on.
Elvington is already under pressure on noise and T.D. already had difficulties at IOM over an event there. I do not hear any of the bikers voicing concerns and Straightliners is where cars using Elvington started. Keep going this way and I can see changes that will preclude many who run at Elvington and enjoy it.
How many cars have been on their roof at Elvington during RWB?????????????????????/
So what you are saying in effect is that if a car is capable of 10 second times and better it should have a roll cage? For RWB or Drag Racing? At present RWB is regulated by the organiser.
Who is going to police this?
Surely as responsible adults we are old enough to make our own informed decisions on what safety equipment we need and if weather is too adverse for our set up.
If we are not careful, RWB will become more regulated and less attractive to the masses who enjoy it. We will end up needing competition licences, roll cages, fire extinguishers, 4 point harnesses, sound regs, fuel regs, tyre regs and so on.
Elvington is already under pressure on noise and T.D. already had difficulties at IOM over an event there. I do not hear any of the bikers voicing concerns and Straightliners is where cars using Elvington started. Keep going this way and I can see changes that will preclude many who run at Elvington and enjoy it.
31 October 2005, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ustolemyname??stevieturbo
A roll cage in a car can pose a danger if the occupants are not wearing a crash helmet.
Fine for a race car. Not always good for a road car.
Although in general, it probably is safer.
A fire extinguihser is something I have been meaning to get for a long time.
Fine for a race car. Not always good for a road car.
Although in general, it probably is safer.
A fire extinguihser is something I have been meaning to get for a long time.