scoobynutta555

Good to hear that Andy got out ok from the crash. But I'd question a roll cage for everyday RWYB. Fair enough if Andy wants one in his rebuilt car, he's the one that experienced the crash. But is it likely to happen again? I suspect he'd be a lot more cautious about taking it out on a track with puddles on it wearing drag boots. Roll cages have their plusses and minuses as I've read above, but I don't think an ordinary punter suddenly deciding they *need* a rollcage is any solution. Poor old michael park was sitting in a car with the best roll cage money could buy.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Harvey, i am not trying to compare the 2, merely saying, i could picture being in Andy's seat all too easily. Hell if i had been driving Marks car, i would have been out there being stupid.

I am aware of Trevors problem in the IOM, and i am sure he wouldnt want anything like that to happen again.

I do NOT wish to bring an end to RWYB, far from it, and can see what you are saying re rules.

I dont know of any cars that have been on their roof at Elvington, but we nearly had one or two yesterday.

There are 2 different classes that turn up to these events now, and careful consideration should be given to both.

ScoobyDuck

iTrader: (1)

what i want to know , is did you manage to get the turbo to spool whilst flying backwards Andy ?


as mentioned elsewhere, glad you are ok, and rollon AFP 2006!

Steve

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Look, Andy was unlucky. He walked away. The red mist took over and he wanted to beat Mikee. He has been totally up front and said that himself and I think /hope he will also say that he made an error of judgement he did not get away with, this time. Just unlucky because I am would think his judgement was normally sound. I do not hear him levelling critisism at Trevor Duckworth but I hear that from Bob'5 who was not even there. He is happy with Avon where they tell him when it is on or off so he should stick with what he is happy with. Some of us want to make up our own minds about some things.

Now with or without a roll cage, the outcome of Andy's incident would have been just the same.
With or without a roll cage the outcome of the other two spins that I witnessed would have been the same.
How many cars have been on their roof at Elvington???????????????????????????????????? I have already asked three times already.
Why regulate for something that does not happen. Leave it to personal choice. Most of us are adult enough to weigh up the pros and cons.
BTW. I too had the misfortune to roll a Subaru so I know what it is like but that (is another story) was on a road with plenty to encourage the roll but at Elvington it is mainly open space.

I wasn't racing anybody, not even myself, just seeing what the conditions were good for and after one run I decided that discretion was the better part of valour. I had no idea there was a top speed award until I was handed the trophy at around 16:30.
Narrow road tyre were better than wider track type tyres for the conditions at the time BTW.

Line up against me any time you want mate but first you need a reliable car that can do quarter of a mile. A roll cage may be a good idea for you but like Shaun says, get all the other bits too. Anyway as far as Elvington is concerned, if it is only for 10 sec cars so you won't need one.

Motorsport has its dangers. If you need someone to tell you when it is safe to go out you should not be there in the first place.
Trackdays are not cancelled when it rains, you have to drive accordingly and there is far more chance of a roll at a trackday than at Elvington.
Should roll cages be mandatory for track days?
How many cars have rolled at Elvington???????????????????????????????????????/

I know that New Labour want to control everything but I cannot see the sense of a minority of enthusiasts imposing rules on devotees of RWB against the wishes and interests of the majority and the sport as a whole.
Live and let live. You want a cage then fit one.

ScoobyDoo555

Once again, a topic running high with emotions is in danger of getting sidelined by details.

The key thing is that nobody was hurt. Bl00dy lucky could be classed as an understatement!!
I'm sure lessons will be learnt by all involved. If by this incident, people think a little more, then "Job done"......


Glad you're OK Andy

Dan

Mark A

iTrader: (1)

My 2p worth.

If you're entering a motorpsort event then you need to be prepared for the worst outcome/event.

Now drag racing may be low risk but recently we've seen a number of high profile road cars topping 200mph and hitting termal speeds of 150mph. My view being a person who has to put people back together when things go wrong, is safety is paramount. I'm amazed to hear people don't even feel the need to wear seatbelts!!

A roll cage would not have altered the outcome of Andy's off, but had he T boned the other car then a roll cage certainly may have reduced the risk of serious injury to the driver of the other car.

My final point is these cars are rolling adverts of Subaru performance services, the last thing any of you want is the bad press from a serious or fatal accident.

Mark A

scoobynutta555

I disagree. IMHO a thread of half this length normally degenerates into anarchic name calling and off topic abuse slinging. I have seen no presence of this. All I have seen is possibly slight criticism of the strip owners letting the runs take place/continue due to the conditions. Justifiably so IMHO. Would this happen at Santa Pod? Maybe, maybe not, I've been to the Pod several times and from what I've seen they are **** hot on safety. Maybe to cage or not to cage as well, but these are valid topics and useful to people who are undecided as to what to do for future runs.

I possibly wouldnt run on a wet strip in any case, but then again I possibly haven't got bigger ***** than others on here

Spoon

Mikee nearly had Andy in the twisties.

waseem

iTrader: (1)

[HARVEY] hi mate what was your best time

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

Anyone would have thought that Andy was driving a stolen metro reading this

ScoobyDoo555

ouch!!!

Dan

TKH

I think any of us who are entering competitions such as sprints or speed trials or alike should seriously consider fitting a cage non of us think twice before spending £ 500 - £ 1000 on anything that will make us go faster stop quicker or look better so why hesitate at a cage which is my next mod instead of Anti Lag which although great will not save my life.

How many time on track days have you had a moment and ive had a few
and got back to the pits and thought how it might have turned out had i not had lucky in the passenger seat

Yes some cages are a pain to live with but at least you live

and Harvey & Bob R car runs fabulous with new engine

Regards
Tim H

sulli

Firstly, glad everyone's OK.
Secondly, the Organisers of the event have a duty lof care, in law, to the attendees. Sounds like they breached it, and had it turned out worse, there could have been some very serious charges brought against them, without doubt.
To me, it sounds like a classic case of putting profit before safety, IMO. Appreciate people have choice in running, but were the event not organised, they wouldn't have that choice to make.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

As i have said earlier Harvey, i havent seen any cars roll on the drag strip at Elvington.

My point was to merely suggest that it should become a requirement for sub 11 second cars to have a cage fitted. Its proactive thinking not reactive.

In no-way am i restricting the RWYB runners from a facility they currently have, it is merely for the non RWYB people, ie the likes of Andy, Paul, Mikee, Mark and anyone else who achieves 10 second quarters.

How many sub 11 second cars do you know of? It wouldnt affect you, yet.

I just think its a sensible requirement, for such powerfull cars, thats all, my view on the matter thats it.

My own decision was made seeing Andy have his incident yesterday, i have been thinking about it for a while, especially since going to the Nurburgring, where there were plenty off incidents, his incident merely put the icing on the cake for me, so to speak.

My point about the trophy was a light hearted attempt at humour, if there is no competition, why the trophy (ps Well done, what speed did you brave?)

Think David may retort some of that back at you

As said above, i am wouldnt be imposing rules on the majority.

Have a good evening.

Steven

David_Wallis

Steven, I dont need to.. I dont believe harvey has yet run a faster quarter mile than my car.

And my car is now more than capable of doing an 10 sec quarter, snapping the rear shaft aside I think it was capable of low 11's with out any problems yesterday, based by its marked improvement on the usual test track, and Id say it was at least 20mph quicker on our usual test route eh steven?

But thats not relevant in this thread

David

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Since when has being relevent been a criteria?

BTW, glad to hear your ok physically and mentally (well as ok as you can ever be in that department at least) Andy! I think the big unanswered question so far is, has Barbara forgiven you yet for giving her yet another fright with that car?

Robertio

iTrader: (1)

My outlook is the same as Harvey's, which is handy as it saves me typing too much

My car may, or may not, be capable of running a 10s 1/4, will find out in the next few months, but it is my only car and I have no interest in fitting a full cage - the weekly visit to Tescos would be a whole lot more time consuming. I have been very sideways at 120 doing a 1/4 in the rain, thankfully I held it so haven't suffered Andy's experience, but it was my own fault for being stupid enough to run - the fact I had to brake at 100mph during the previous run due to zero visibility should have told me something.

All these people saying it's a good idea because other countries have regs for x second cars - do you know people who run there? I do and some participants brake before the line to ensure they don't go under the x sec barrier. Consequently you end up with cars running 10.2@110mph and other similarly stupid combos, if they misjudge their braking point they go home and come back another day knowing to brake sooner.

It should be as it is at Elvington etc. with the driver deciding if it is safe to run - only they know how good they and their car are, so are the only people who can determine if it is safe for them to run. Andy misjudged it this time, but it was his call to make which is the important thing (I'm sure those who agree with regs appreciate those lovely speed limits we have on the public roads, maybe it's because both Harvey & myself have similarily fallen foul of zelous speed limit enforcement we share our view).

FWIW based on the information provided the extra weight of a cage in Andy's car would have slowed him enough he would have hit Mikee - IIRC Mikee hasn't run a 10s 1/4, so no cage in his car. Something tells me the last thing you want in a non-caged car is to be hit by a car sporting a cage as it would practically drive through the non-caged vehicle.

David_Wallis

Mikee's (or Micky ) best time is around 10.6 iirc.

David

chiark

Roll cage, no roll cage... I personally think that's up to the individual but let's face it: how many serious tuners on here are now putting roll cages in as a direct result of Andy's accident? People have been talking about it for months/years in some cases, but this is the wake up call that will force people's hands.

If the ground had been softer, or if andy had hit a ploughed field or errant sheep , could the car have flipped? Knowing that gravel traps can and do flip imprezas, my vote would be "yes", but that's just me verging on paranoia probably

The issue that I think needs to be addressed before something awful happens is how to minimise the risks to other competitors. Andy said that if he'd damaged Mikee's car that he'd have been gutted, but what if he'd damaged Mikee?

Would fitting a roll cage to Andy's car have helped Mikee if there had been a collision? No.

The organisers hold top speed runs with one car on the track for a reason. Should the same logic should be used if conditions deteriorate? People can run the risk of putting their cars down the 1/4 if conditions worsen, but would it be wise to limit it to one competitor at a time? Should competitors be stopped from running funny road-legal tyres?

My vote, for what it's worth, would be to allow competing without roll cages but for any event like this to impose an "exceptional circumstance" set of rules if conditions deteriorate which means a) one car on the track, b) track inspections with the organisers being able to close the track if conditions deteriorate beyond what they deem acceptable and c) every runner being notified of the conditions explicitly

I am aware that this might bring legal responsibilities for the organisers, but I would hazard a guess that they already have them.

Anyhow, enough pontificating from me. I'm glad no-one's hurt, glad Andy and the car will be back in the future, glad people are taking safety seriously, and glad that the discussion is moving forward in a productive manner.

scoobynutta555

Thing is Andy came to no harm and he didn't have a cage. Thankfully he wasn't injured, but IMHO if I was going for very quick times and I saw that a guy survived a crash like that at that speed it would embolden the thought that I could do without a cage. like everything it's weighing everything up. Adding a cage is extra weight, and by doing the quarter mile we all know weight is the enemy. As mentioned there are a lot of ifs and buts to everything. But seems to me the major reason for this accident was standing water and puddles. As was mentioned earlier, how many cars end up on their roofs or in serious accidents up the strip, not many I suspect. I'd want a cage i think for track work if I was pushing it, but for a strip I'd want to lay off a cage as long as possible until very serious times were acheivable. Then again how do you enforce it and what regs do you have that would be cast iron? Having a cage doesn't necessarily mean that a death won't occur.

ben44

Lets forward this thread to the Labour Party. We'll all have to have roll cages by Christmas (Sorry if I've broken any laws by using the word Christmas)

FFS, I've never met Andy F, but it seems he knew the score. He drove, he crashed. He wants to go faster and I don't doubt he will.

Should we demand a speed camera at the strip to stop him??

Fu*king nanny state is getting on my ****

Mark A

iTrader: (1)

For all those paranoid types watch this sell on a certain auction site; number 8011142000

Having a cage won't stop a death but it reduces the risk when used in conjuction with other safety devices. In which other motorsport are cars racing in close proximity at speed without any safety equipment?

Oh and by the way before anybody judges me I occassional enter sprints and have no axe to grind with drag racing or RWYB etc.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

FFS. You guys that want a cage then fit one but do not impose conditions on the rest of us. There is no evidence of any cars turning over but if you feel happy with a cage that is your choice. Do not spoil our enjoyment of an odd Sunday at Elvington because of your New Labour control tendancies.
I resent the posts by Bob'5 criticising the organisers of Elvington, especially, moreso as he was not there. Page 6.
Unless we are very careful the freedom to enjoy Elvington will be curtailed.
David W: You keep telling us about what your car is going to do and you have had more than your fair share of bad luck. If a bulk buy on roll cages is your priority for now, good luck to you. Send me a text when you get ten seconds and I will be very happy for you.
Tim : Thanks. Bob was on the phone Sunday from Hong Kong and is back from China on the 8th.
Waseem : 13.04 in the rain. Cheers mate. Good luck everybody else even if you are of a different persuasion but do not mees with our fun.

Andy.F

This makes my car appear lightly scratched. No cage and he walked away



I'm still fitting one though !

Andy

killa

iTrader: (7)

The track was wet and it would have been up to the drivers to decide if it was safe, most runs were fine on the day, but even before Andy there were a few that spun around and were o.k, I think it was that Andy was going a little fast....

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

I wouldnt be spoiling it for the rest of you, as you put it.

Andy.F

Currently the only cage the 10 second cars have is the one the drivers throw their brain into before getting behind the wheel

David_Wallis

The government dont have anything to do with this, im just suggesting that cars running high terminals / low quarters should maybe 'consider' fitting cages.

The other thing that I am trying to get across to some narrow minded 'Everythings going to be ok types' is that there are two people on the drag stip.. You might be perfectly fine, but what about when I hit you and cause you to roll.. even though you were minding your own business and doing nothing wrong?

Watch some videos of dragsters crashing.. how many times do they hit the other car? - No im not comparing our cars to proper dragsters though.

Last time I raced in the rain / damp track I ran an 11.8 at 125iic when changing into 4th I got a bit sideways, yet didnt lift.. had I not corrected it and it became pointed at the wall and bounced off it, what would / could have happened then?

Harvey, you will notice that my post was directed at andy asking him if he would like me to ask if I can get a discount on quantity, not offering a group buy!

David

Andy.F

Yes please

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)