john banks

I've driven both the E46 and the Scooby today, temperature about 10C and damp. The Scooby has more traction but I would say less outright cornering speed... despite ALK, whiteline bits galore, suspension. Astonishingly the M3 feels more neutral natural understeer through entry speed is neutralised by the right amount of power, whereas the Scooby is understeery, and more power just makes it worse unless you start flicking it about or provoking it.

TonyFlow

Sorry, I considered them to be one and the same (are they not?)

automodellistagt

nope theyre not the same. A cars physical cornering is determined by grip, tractions is about putting the power down. A ferrari f430 for example may only be 2wd but generates loads of 'grip'.

the difference comes in that the 4wd is easier to drive, not relying as heavily as a 2wd car to throttle position and timing. It just happens the scoob happens to have good grip as well. I think cornering G is where its all at

TonyFlow

I still cannot see how they are different (sorry!) Follow me:

Definition of Traction (taken from http://www.wordreference.com/definition/traction )
"the friction between a body and the surface on which it moves"

In this case, we can say a Tyre and the road - correct?

I cannot see how this must be related to "putting the power down", or how it is any different to grip (no mention is made that this cannot be lateral movement) - as surely that is also the friction between a body and the surface on which it moves?

Therefore, if all 4 wheels are receiving power around a corner, they will have more traction and hence grip?

If the wheels are not being powered, then there is very little (if any) difference between any drivetrain

sgcooby

You may be gramatcally correct but it is widely accepted in motoring that 'grip' relates to cornering and 'traction' relates to putting the power down.

TonyFlow

OK - thanks for your explanation, I genuinely never realised that was the case (and will still continue to use my "grammatically correct" descriptions )

sgcooby

Thats why the device is called ' traction control' which kicks in when your wheels start to spin under power but ' ESP(electronic stability programme' kicks in when you skid i.e loose grip which is not related to power as generaly this happen when braking into a corner.

So feel free to continue to use your 'grammatically correct' terms but you will be on your own mate.

TonyFlow

That is fine - I usually am on my own - in my own world etc

Wasnt this the reason that traction control was to be renamed ASR (as traction control does not specify anything wrt acceleration)?

jasonius

iTrader: (1)

Would that be related to front end slip..?

sgcooby

I think we are loosing the point of the original thread.

It is 'fact' however that a 2wd car has no less grip in a corner than a 4wd car. It is down purely to tyres, weight, centre of gravity and no doubt countless other things but has nowt to do with drivetrain.

Therefore an M3 could have more grip in a corner than a scooby and for the same reason a front wheel drive car can also have more grip than either of them.

Exiting the corner is a different story as its all about putting the power down and almost certainly a 4wd car would be better here.

Not saying an M3 is better like but i wouldnt mind one but if i was going to spend twice the amount i spent on my scoob id buy an S4.

TonyFlow

Is this true when the tyres are loaded (i.e. powering around a corner), as I would have thought that having both front and back tyres driven (and hence exerting more force), they would provide more grip/traction?

Getting back to the original thread, I would rather keep my Type R than swap for a M3 - even though I have no doubt the M3 is a better "drivers car" - I cannot see it being a better drivers car for me!

Saying all that, I only have 2 legs (ok, three ), and can obviously Corner quite well!

furrydice79

i love my subaru and if i could afford to spend the amount an m3 costs, i would buy a type 25 impreza and pocket the change,, does it really matter about this vs this and that vs that,,,m3 owners love ther m3 and scooby owner love their scooby..

however, if ther comes a time in my life that i need a less fuel thirsty car then ill be straight dwn the dealer to buy a 330d...

sgcooby

You are probably right about powering round a corner but then again a rwd car might also be better as if dry it straightens the car up faster. Wet...forget it.

Rwd not an option for me though what with all the snow in our tropical climate.

CyprusScooby

What planet are you on??????

BMWs have a far worse image than Subarus!
Why do you think that BMW drivers are universally reffered to as t*ssers!

People buy BMWs for all the wrong reasons, ie. for the false hope that buying one will push them up a few more notches on the Status ladder.
Hence every middle class street in the UK is full of them.

M3's are common as muck as well. A hell of alot more so than Scoobys!
They also depreciate faster than Scoobs!

I've beaten many an M3 in my old standard My99 Turbo 2000!

john banks

It's the snow I'm not looking forward to, with winter wheels/tyres costing more than a decent supermini.

There was an interesting article in Autocar about M3 vs S4 in the wet. http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s41.jpg and http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s42.jpg

sgcooby

Didnt read the article you posted by i imagine it says M3 was quicker than S4 but did you see top gear when the S4 beat the M3 round the track in the dry??

davidpa

M3

sgcooby

M3 what???

davidpa

Yeah, so.

john banks

I did see the TG test. The Autocar test is interesting in that the difference between the times is greater in the wet than the dry, and in favour of the RWD car.

SamUK

iTrader: (1)

Hmm...So i am a Subaru owner and a M3 owner..does that make me a t*sser?? PLUM!

Sandard Scooby beating an M3....WHATEVA.... maybe it was a 316 badged as an M3...

Anyhow...I own a M3 EVO, 316BHP Scooby UK Spec and my brother owns an S4 all three are freking quick... The S4 is more a refined car with no LAG...

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Yes, but the BMW driver would suffer just as badly in those circumstances, worse if conditions were not favourable i.e. wet roads!

But we hate BMW drivers, right?

Ns04

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Cornering speed is surely a combination of grip and traction.

Hence a 911 can have phenomenal corner speeds - and by this I mean the overall time take to travel a corner - not necessarily the maximum speed achieved in a corner.

A Scooby has a lot of grip and some traction - a classic STi V loses traction in tight corners - even with 300bhp I could get the front inside wheel to light up in the hairpin at Bedford - even with hot slicks on.

A 911 driven well has a lot of grip because of huge wheels and then has huge traction with the weight of the engine over the driven wheels. You can't brake into the corner like a Scoob but you sure can get the power down very early with little loss of tractive effort and so leave the corner like the proverbial rabbit...

An M3 has the big wheels and it sure has a lot of mass - however the engine is at the front and so the driven wheels are not going to achieve the same tractive effort as early and it the relies on electronics to acheive the power down. Having said that my BMW 330Ci did not struggle in a Scooby thrash cross country in the pissing rain - indeed it was a bit more lairy in the corners - however it was not embarrassed. An M3 would have been very competitive. Again an example of grip over traction as I suspect few of us are competent enough drivers to the exploit the traction. We like Scoobs so we can rely on the grip.

My experience on Castle Combe and Bedford was that an Sti V with 320bhp was whooping the *** of all the E46 M3s I was on track with.

I am not a particularly brilliant driver - and I am not suggest the M3 drivers were either - but they were not hard to pass.

Evos, especially with the same power were a LOT harder!!

Rannoch

Nate

iTrader: (2)

If you go for a BMW, get one with the 'indicator option pack', the ***** that don't have this pack get on my nerves.



Nate.

Paul3446

I can't believe anyone can say that Subaru has a bad image, so they're thinking of getting a BMW? Surely BMW drivers have the worst image of all.

Nevetas

Most performance cars have a bad image in one way or another....

reano

iTrader: (2)

I say ask a female about the car you are going to buy and they will tell you straight. Scooby they say "boy racer" and BMW "Flash, poser"!! However when you get a female to drive both (and I have had quite a few drive my Scooby of course only about 1-200 metres on an industrial estate so it doesn't get thrashed!!!) it's a different story! responses - "Wow!!!..", "what a car" "", "I really like that car", "that's a nice fast car....", etc never negative
My car is like prozac and I come into work very happy and yes the females now ask hey how's the car (mine's the 53 sti, , blue, ppp, springs and 18" gold wheels)

SamUK

iTrader: (1)

My M3 looses its backend on the straights aswell..

Tripple'O G

No contest for me really......
I had a blast with 2 new M3's and made then look like a right pair of w@ankers....they even pulled up next to me (when I let them catch up) and they couldn't believe how they had just paid major ££££'s for something that was beaten so solidly (made my own word up there, like it??)

Had a Z3M before and my scoob now would destroy it......

buzzuk

The other week i put my my95 import with full de-cat, heatshielded induction against a 51 reg bmw m3, we raced over 250 yards and i beat him by 3 car lengths. Needless to say he had his traction control off and who's to say what would have happened over a longer distance but i still smile about it now. i know it isn't the m3 you are talking about but hope it gives you some idea. Forgot to mention my car is obviously quick coz it's the faster colour (silver) (flame suit on) this was a planned race on the industrial estate i work on ( the geezer had been bragging for weeks how he would thrash me, after we parked up he looked a broken man.