M3 vs Scooby?
#31
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I've driven both the E46 and the Scooby today, temperature about 10C and damp. The Scooby has more traction but I would say less outright cornering speed... despite ALK, whiteline bits galore, suspension. Astonishingly the M3 feels more neutral natural understeer through entry speed is neutralised by the right amount of power, whereas the Scooby is understeery, and more power just makes it worse unless you start flicking it about or provoking it.
#32
Originally Posted by New_scooby_04
You're getting confused between grip and traction mate. As the post immediately after yours indicates, the principle advantage of 4wd is the ability to put the cars power down without wheelspin.
NS04
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#33
nope theyre not the same. A cars physical cornering is determined by grip, tractions is about putting the power down. A ferrari f430 for example may only be 2wd but generates loads of 'grip'.
the difference comes in that the 4wd is easier to drive, not relying as heavily as a 2wd car to throttle position and timing. It just happens the scoob happens to have good grip as well. I think cornering G is where its all at
the difference comes in that the 4wd is easier to drive, not relying as heavily as a 2wd car to throttle position and timing. It just happens the scoob happens to have good grip as well. I think cornering G is where its all at
#34
Originally Posted by automodellistagt
nope theyre not the same. A cars physical cornering is determined by grip, tractions is about putting the power down. A ferrari f430 for example may only be 2wd but generates loads of 'grip'.
Definition of Traction (taken from http://www.wordreference.com/definition/traction )
"the friction between a body and the surface on which it moves"
In this case, we can say a Tyre and the road - correct?
I cannot see how this must be related to "putting the power down", or how it is any different to grip (no mention is made that this cannot be lateral movement) - as surely that is also the friction between a body and the surface on which it moves?
Therefore, if all 4 wheels are receiving power around a corner, they will have more traction and hence grip?
If the wheels are not being powered, then there is very little (if any) difference between any drivetrain
#35
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Originally Posted by TonyFlow
I still cannot see how they are different (sorry!) Follow me:
Definition of Traction (taken from http://www.wordreference.com/definition/traction )
"the friction between a body and the surface on which it moves"
In this case, we can say a Tyre and the road - correct?
I cannot see how this must be related to "putting the power down", or how it is any different to grip (no mention is made that this cannot be lateral movement) - as surely that is also the friction between a body and the surface on which it moves?
Therefore, if all 4 wheels are receiving power around a corner, they will have more traction and hence grip?
If the wheels are not being powered, then there is very little (if any) difference between any drivetrain
Definition of Traction (taken from http://www.wordreference.com/definition/traction )
"the friction between a body and the surface on which it moves"
In this case, we can say a Tyre and the road - correct?
I cannot see how this must be related to "putting the power down", or how it is any different to grip (no mention is made that this cannot be lateral movement) - as surely that is also the friction between a body and the surface on which it moves?
Therefore, if all 4 wheels are receiving power around a corner, they will have more traction and hence grip?
If the wheels are not being powered, then there is very little (if any) difference between any drivetrain
#36
Originally Posted by sgcooby
You may be gramatcally correct but it is widely accepted in motoring that 'grip' relates to cornering and 'traction' relates to putting the power down.
Last edited by TonyFlow; 10 November 2005 at 03:41 PM.
#37
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Originally Posted by TonyFlow
OK - thanks for your explanation, I genuinely never realised that was the case (and will still continue to use my "grammatically correct" descriptions )
So feel free to continue to use your 'grammatically correct' terms but you will be on your own mate.
#38
Originally Posted by sgcooby
So feel free to continue to use your 'grammatically correct' terms but you will be on your own mate.
Wasnt this the reason that traction control was to be renamed ASR (as traction control does not specify anything wrt acceleration)?
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I think we are loosing the point of the original thread.
It is 'fact' however that a 2wd car has no less grip in a corner than a 4wd car. It is down purely to tyres, weight, centre of gravity and no doubt countless other things but has nowt to do with drivetrain.
Therefore an M3 could have more grip in a corner than a scooby and for the same reason a front wheel drive car can also have more grip than either of them.
Exiting the corner is a different story as its all about putting the power down and almost certainly a 4wd car would be better here.
Not saying an M3 is better like but i wouldnt mind one but if i was going to spend twice the amount i spent on my scoob id buy an S4.
It is 'fact' however that a 2wd car has no less grip in a corner than a 4wd car. It is down purely to tyres, weight, centre of gravity and no doubt countless other things but has nowt to do with drivetrain.
Therefore an M3 could have more grip in a corner than a scooby and for the same reason a front wheel drive car can also have more grip than either of them.
Exiting the corner is a different story as its all about putting the power down and almost certainly a 4wd car would be better here.
Not saying an M3 is better like but i wouldnt mind one but if i was going to spend twice the amount i spent on my scoob id buy an S4.
#41
Originally Posted by sgcooby
Therefore an M3 could have more grip in a corner than a scooby and for the same reason a front wheel drive car can also have more grip than either of them.
Getting back to the original thread, I would rather keep my Type R than swap for a M3 - even though I have no doubt the M3 is a better "drivers car" - I cannot see it being a better drivers car for me!
Saying all that, I only have 2 legs (ok, three ), and can obviously Corner quite well!
Last edited by TonyFlow; 10 November 2005 at 04:18 PM.
#42
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i love my subaru and if i could afford to spend the amount an m3 costs, i would buy a type 25 impreza and pocket the change,, does it really matter about this vs this and that vs that,,,m3 owners love ther m3 and scooby owner love their scooby..
however, if ther comes a time in my life that i need a less fuel thirsty car then ill be straight dwn the dealer to buy a 330d...
however, if ther comes a time in my life that i need a less fuel thirsty car then ill be straight dwn the dealer to buy a 330d...
#43
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You are probably right about powering round a corner but then again a rwd car might also be better as if dry it straightens the car up faster. Wet...forget it.
Rwd not an option for me though what with all the snow in our tropical climate.
Rwd not an option for me though what with all the snow in our tropical climate.
#44
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Originally Posted by KiwiGTI
It's sad but I couldn't buy a Scooby anymore, not because of insurance or carjackings, it's just the image has become so bad.
An M3 for me but at least the current/outgoing shape.
An M3 for me but at least the current/outgoing shape.
BMWs have a far worse image than Subarus!
Why do you think that BMW drivers are universally reffered to as t*ssers!
People buy BMWs for all the wrong reasons, ie. for the false hope that buying one will push them up a few more notches on the Status ladder.
Hence every middle class street in the UK is full of them.
M3's are common as muck as well. A hell of alot more so than Scoobys!
They also depreciate faster than Scoobs!
I've beaten many an M3 in my old standard My99 Turbo 2000!
Last edited by CyprusScooby; 10 November 2005 at 06:29 PM.
#45
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It's the snow I'm not looking forward to, with winter wheels/tyres costing more than a decent supermini.
There was an interesting article in Autocar about M3 vs S4 in the wet. http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s41.jpg and http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s42.jpg
There was an interesting article in Autocar about M3 vs S4 in the wet. http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s41.jpg and http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s42.jpg
#46
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Originally Posted by john banks
It's the snow I'm not looking forward to, with winter wheels/tyres costing more than a decent supermini.
There was an interesting article in Autocar about M3 vs S4 in the wet. http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s41.jpg and http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s42.jpg
There was an interesting article in Autocar about M3 vs S4 in the wet. http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s41.jpg and http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s42.jpg
#51
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Originally Posted by CyprusScooby
What planet are you on??????
BMWs have a far worse image than Subarus!
Why do you think that BMW drivers are universally reffered to as t*ssers!
People buy BMWs for all the wrong reasons, ie. for the false hope that buying one will push them up a few more notches on the Status ladder.
Hence every middle class street in the UK is full of them.
M3's are common as muck as well. A hell of alot more so than Scoobys!
They also depreciate faster than Scoobs!
I've beaten many an M3 in my old standard My99 Turbo 2000!
BMWs have a far worse image than Subarus!
Why do you think that BMW drivers are universally reffered to as t*ssers!
People buy BMWs for all the wrong reasons, ie. for the false hope that buying one will push them up a few more notches on the Status ladder.
Hence every middle class street in the UK is full of them.
M3's are common as muck as well. A hell of alot more so than Scoobys!
They also depreciate faster than Scoobs!
I've beaten many an M3 in my old standard My99 Turbo 2000!
Hmm...So i am a Subaru owner and a M3 owner..does that make me a t*sser?? PLUM!
Sandard Scooby beating an M3....WHATEVA.... maybe it was a 316 badged as an M3...
Anyhow...I own a M3 EVO, 316BHP Scooby UK Spec and my brother owns an S4 all three are freking quick... The S4 is more a refined car with no LAG...
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Originally Posted by Bubba po
Remap, decat, special pleading. Tune its **** off for a result. A special driver in a 1.6 focus would whip a scooby driven by an average driver in their beloved *twisties*.
But we hate BMW drivers, right?
Ns04
#53
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Cornering speed is surely a combination of grip and traction.
Hence a 911 can have phenomenal corner speeds - and by this I mean the overall time take to travel a corner - not necessarily the maximum speed achieved in a corner.
A Scooby has a lot of grip and some traction - a classic STi V loses traction in tight corners - even with 300bhp I could get the front inside wheel to light up in the hairpin at Bedford - even with hot slicks on.
A 911 driven well has a lot of grip because of huge wheels and then has huge traction with the weight of the engine over the driven wheels. You can't brake into the corner like a Scoob but you sure can get the power down very early with little loss of tractive effort and so leave the corner like the proverbial rabbit...
An M3 has the big wheels and it sure has a lot of mass - however the engine is at the front and so the driven wheels are not going to achieve the same tractive effort as early and it the relies on electronics to acheive the power down. Having said that my BMW 330Ci did not struggle in a Scooby thrash cross country in the pissing rain - indeed it was a bit more lairy in the corners - however it was not embarrassed. An M3 would have been very competitive. Again an example of grip over traction as I suspect few of us are competent enough drivers to the exploit the traction. We like Scoobs so we can rely on the grip.
My experience on Castle Combe and Bedford was that an Sti V with 320bhp was whooping the *** of all the E46 M3s I was on track with.
I am not a particularly brilliant driver - and I am not suggest the M3 drivers were either - but they were not hard to pass.
Evos, especially with the same power were a LOT harder!!
Rannoch
Hence a 911 can have phenomenal corner speeds - and by this I mean the overall time take to travel a corner - not necessarily the maximum speed achieved in a corner.
A Scooby has a lot of grip and some traction - a classic STi V loses traction in tight corners - even with 300bhp I could get the front inside wheel to light up in the hairpin at Bedford - even with hot slicks on.
A 911 driven well has a lot of grip because of huge wheels and then has huge traction with the weight of the engine over the driven wheels. You can't brake into the corner like a Scoob but you sure can get the power down very early with little loss of tractive effort and so leave the corner like the proverbial rabbit...
An M3 has the big wheels and it sure has a lot of mass - however the engine is at the front and so the driven wheels are not going to achieve the same tractive effort as early and it the relies on electronics to acheive the power down. Having said that my BMW 330Ci did not struggle in a Scooby thrash cross country in the pissing rain - indeed it was a bit more lairy in the corners - however it was not embarrassed. An M3 would have been very competitive. Again an example of grip over traction as I suspect few of us are competent enough drivers to the exploit the traction. We like Scoobs so we can rely on the grip.
My experience on Castle Combe and Bedford was that an Sti V with 320bhp was whooping the *** of all the E46 M3s I was on track with.
I am not a particularly brilliant driver - and I am not suggest the M3 drivers were either - but they were not hard to pass.
Evos, especially with the same power were a LOT harder!!
Rannoch
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I say ask a female about the car you are going to buy and they will tell you straight. Scooby they say "boy racer" and BMW "Flash, poser"!! However when you get a female to drive both (and I have had quite a few drive my Scooby of course only about 1-200 metres on an industrial estate so it doesn't get thrashed!!!) it's a different story! responses - "Wow!!!..", "what a car" "", "I really like that car", "that's a nice fast car....", etc never negative
My car is like prozac and I come into work very happy and yes the females now ask hey how's the car (mine's the 53 sti, , blue, ppp, springs and 18" gold wheels)
My car is like prozac and I come into work very happy and yes the females now ask hey how's the car (mine's the 53 sti, , blue, ppp, springs and 18" gold wheels)
#59
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No contest for me really......
I had a blast with 2 new M3's and made then look like a right pair of w@ankers....they even pulled up next to me (when I let them catch up) and they couldn't believe how they had just paid major ££££'s for something that was beaten so solidly (made my own word up there, like it??)
Had a Z3M before and my scoob now would destroy it......
I had a blast with 2 new M3's and made then look like a right pair of w@ankers....they even pulled up next to me (when I let them catch up) and they couldn't believe how they had just paid major ££££'s for something that was beaten so solidly (made my own word up there, like it??)
Had a Z3M before and my scoob now would destroy it......
#60
The other week i put my my95 import with full de-cat, heatshielded induction against a 51 reg bmw m3, we raced over 250 yards and i beat him by 3 car lengths. Needless to say he had his traction control off and who's to say what would have happened over a longer distance but i still smile about it now. i know it isn't the m3 you are talking about but hope it gives you some idea. Forgot to mention my car is obviously quick coz it's the faster colour (silver) (flame suit on) this was a planned race on the industrial estate i work on ( the geezer had been bragging for weeks how he would thrash me, after we parked up he looked a broken man.
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