So why is it that...
#91
Originally Posted by Dracoro
So people who commit suicide don't go to heaven/have an afterlife etc?? What happens to them?
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Originally Posted by RedFive
In all respect: that is not an argument.
Try proving flat screen television in the 17th century.
Try proving flat screen television in the 17th century.
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Originally Posted by Karl 227
Don't get me started
Shortly before Christmas a good mate of mine died unexpectedly at the age of 46. At the funeral 6 days later, the priest told his 82 year old mum who was sitting at the front sobbing, his brother and the rest of the church that we should all be thankful and rest assured that it was god's will and that he chose to take him for a purpose I could have bloody hit the insensitive ba5tard
Shortly before Christmas a good mate of mine died unexpectedly at the age of 46. At the funeral 6 days later, the priest told his 82 year old mum who was sitting at the front sobbing, his brother and the rest of the church that we should all be thankful and rest assured that it was god's will and that he chose to take him for a purpose I could have bloody hit the insensitive ba5tard
I was lying paralyzed in the intensive care ward of a spinal injuries hospital, unable to move anything whatsoever and a priest appeared from behind the curtains.
I was unable to see who it was due to lying flat on my back but I heard this guy introduce himself and ask if I'd like to talk to him.
I said no I'd rather not. The cheeky ****** continued to tell me that I was paralyzed because god had chosen me knowing full well I'd cope with it for the rest of my life.
Next words from me were "why don't you just **** off". The sister of the ward overheard me and come inside the curtains to see what was up.
I asked her what right he had spouting cr4p to me and what right he had just walking in my curtains when my own family are vetted like terrorists when visiting?
Father Jackass never stopped at my bed again for the months I was there
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I personally feel that we are not here simply by coincidence. If you look at this world and the number of variables that had to be exactly correct for life to flourish on this planet it is mind boggling. It is as if the planet has been perfectly 'designed'. You see similar evidence of this perfect design in the creatures that inhabit the planet. This is why many top scientists believe in a higher power – the probability of all this happening by coincidence is just too small.
Sure maybe we ask the questions simply because we are here to ask them, but to say that this higher power doesn't and cannot exist because you or even 'we' have no evidence is like saying that just because we can’t understand something means it isn't there. How many times have people made that mistake in the past? Has anyone been able to confirm what caused the 'Big Bang' as per the theory or explain in full the Universe? Would you expect ants to understand a Sky Scraper?
I do think organised religion is very unproductive though and is undoubtedly the root of a great many problems in the world – ignorant people blindly following the ramblings of a few power hungry 'leaders'.
I personally believe in a higher power or a God if you like and that there is a point to living a good life. I do feel accountable for the way I treat people and the things I do. It is called having faith because that is exactly what it is – a belief without proof.
Sure maybe we ask the questions simply because we are here to ask them, but to say that this higher power doesn't and cannot exist because you or even 'we' have no evidence is like saying that just because we can’t understand something means it isn't there. How many times have people made that mistake in the past? Has anyone been able to confirm what caused the 'Big Bang' as per the theory or explain in full the Universe? Would you expect ants to understand a Sky Scraper?
I do think organised religion is very unproductive though and is undoubtedly the root of a great many problems in the world – ignorant people blindly following the ramblings of a few power hungry 'leaders'.
I personally believe in a higher power or a God if you like and that there is a point to living a good life. I do feel accountable for the way I treat people and the things I do. It is called having faith because that is exactly what it is – a belief without proof.
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Originally Posted by Ben v7
I personally feel that we are not here simply by coincidence. If you look at this world and the number of variables that had to be exactly correct for life to flourish on this planet it is mind boggling. It is as if the planet has been perfectly 'designed'. You see similar evidence of this perfect design in the creatures that inhabit the planet.
This is why many top scientists believe in a higher power – the probability of all this happening by coincidence is just too small.
Sure maybe we ask the questions simply because we are here to ask them, but to say that this higher power doesn't and cannot exist because you or even 'we' have no evidence is like saying that just because we can’t understand something means it isn't there.
How many times have people made that mistake in the past?
Has anyone been able to confirm what caused the 'Big Bang' as per the theory or explain in full the Universe?
Would you expect ants to understand a Sky Scraper?
I do think organised religion is very unproductive though and is undoubtedly the root of a great many problems in the world – ignorant people blindly following the ramblings of a few power hungry 'leaders'.
I personally believe in a higher power or a God if you like and that there is a point to living a good life. I do feel accountable for the way I treat people and the things I do. It is called having faith because that is exactly what it is – a belief without proof.
I personally believe in a higher power or a God if you like and that there is a point to living a good life. I do feel accountable for the way I treat people and the things I do. It is called having faith because that is exactly what it is – a belief without proof.
Wow - the last 4 words I agree with, now understand what that really means and how many other things you are prepared to accept on the same basis.
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Actually most of the "designs" are very poor, but they work sufficiently well in the environment. Your massive variables argument was tried recently by the ID crew in the US. The worked out how many variables would be needed in terms of numbers of organisms, generations etc to show evolution to be viable. It was shown that those variables existed in about 1 cubic meter of soil over 20 years with bacteria. Scale it up to 13 billion years and it's a wonder the universe isn't teaming with life.
The top end physicysts know the universe pretty well, far better than I do, and so for we nothing requires the invention of a super natural being.
What mistake? Science is self correcting. Things may not be possible in a current context, it doesn't deny anything that can be well argued and it always accept the possibility that new data will come along that will change things. How many people with religious faith can even admit they would change their mind if they could be shown they were wrong?
Why would they want to? Termites however...
So without the threat of god hanging over you, you'd be imoral and criminal?
Wow - the last 4 words I agree with, now understand what that really means and how many other things you are prepared to accept on the same basis
Edit: Corrected quote error.
Last edited by Ben v7; 04 January 2006 at 08:53 PM.
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Physicists have theories on the Universe. I’ve read much of Stephen Hawking's and others work and while they explain a great deal, the basic questions, those a child would ask, remain unanswered.
You've missed my point. Depends how you want to view it - I see it as keeping an open mind and again making a personal choice.
Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change you mind an accept that there is no god? It wouldn't take much for me to change my mind, or any other atheist, and it would easily be within the power of a god to provide what I need.
It was an illustration of how silly it is for us to presume we have the mental capacity to understand everything.
No I wouldn't, but some do appear to take the view that no God means no accountability.
I can't honestly think of anything else off hand!
Again it's personal feeling on the matter and is something I have considered over and over.
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Originally Posted by Ben v7
Yes it is isn't it...
The big question is where did the universe come from (assuming it did, there are some theories that it has always been)? Saying god did it doesn't answer the question, it just moves the problem up a level to "So who created god then?" Whatever answer you choose to accept for god's creator is equally applicable directly to the universe without the need for a god.
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Originally Posted by OllyK
The big question is where did the universe come from (assuming it did, there are some theories that it has always been)? Saying god did it doesn't answer the question, it just moves the problem up a level to "So who created god then?" Whatever answer you choose to accept for god's creator is equally applicable directly to the universe without the need for a god.
Regarding the above objection to 'the everything must have a cause and that cause must be God' argument. Basically you either choose to believe that there is a self existent God or a self existent universe at the end of the day. However the universe is not behaving as if it is self existent is it?
The more we learn about thermodynamics the more apparent it is that the universe is cooling down etc and is not constant. Therefore we cannot apply to the Universe what applies to 'God' – whatever that higher power may be.
Asking if God created the Universe then who created God is a bit like asking 'Who made the unmakable'… beyond our comprehension… back to the ants or whatever…
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Originally Posted by Ben v7
The illustration… okay... it's like an ape trying to understand astrophysics.
Regarding the above objection to 'the everything must have a cause and that cause must be God' argument. Basically you either choose to believe that there is a self existent God or a self existent universe at the end of the day. However the universe is not behaving as if it is self existent is it?
The more we learn about thermodynamics the more apparent it is that the universe is cooling down etc and is not constant. Therefore we cannot apply to the Universe what applies to 'God' – whatever that higher power may be.
Asking if God created the Universe then who created God is a bit like asking 'Who made the unmakable'… beyond our comprehension… back to the ants or whatever…
Regarding the above objection to 'the everything must have a cause and that cause must be God' argument. Basically you either choose to believe that there is a self existent God or a self existent universe at the end of the day. However the universe is not behaving as if it is self existent is it?
The more we learn about thermodynamics the more apparent it is that the universe is cooling down etc and is not constant. Therefore we cannot apply to the Universe what applies to 'God' – whatever that higher power may be.
Asking if God created the Universe then who created God is a bit like asking 'Who made the unmakable'… beyond our comprehension… back to the ants or whatever…
give me the answers, and i can imagine them if not understand them...but ill still need proof
#103
Originally Posted by Karl 227
Don't get me started
Shortly before Christmas a good mate of mine died unexpectedly at the age of 46. At the funeral 6 days later, the priest told his 82 year old mum who was sitting at the front sobbing, his brother and the rest of the church that we should all be thankful and rest assured that it was god's will and that he chose to take him for a purpose I could have bloody hit the insensitive ba5tard
Shortly before Christmas a good mate of mine died unexpectedly at the age of 46. At the funeral 6 days later, the priest told his 82 year old mum who was sitting at the front sobbing, his brother and the rest of the church that we should all be thankful and rest assured that it was god's will and that he chose to take him for a purpose I could have bloody hit the insensitive ba5tard
Why have a Christian ceremony if you're not religious?
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Originally Posted by Ben v7
The illustration… okay... it's like an ape trying to understand astrophysics.
Regarding the above objection to 'the everything must have a cause and that cause must be God' argument. Basically you either choose to believe that there is a self existent God or a self existent universe at the end of the day. However the universe is not behaving as if it is self existent is it?
The more we learn about thermodynamics the more apparent it is that the universe is cooling down etc and is not constant. Therefore we cannot apply to the Universe what applies to 'God' – whatever that higher power may be.
The more we learn about thermodynamics the more apparent it is that the universe is cooling down etc and is not constant. Therefore we cannot apply to the Universe what applies to 'God' – whatever that higher power may be.
You seem to be putting forward a lot of arguments used by the YEC / ID groups. By self existent I assume you are trying to claim the universe is in violation of the first law of thermodynamics? Have you looked on the web for the scientific refutation of that argument? - it's a one liner.
Asking if God created the Universe then who created God is a bit like asking 'Who made the unmakable'… beyond our comprehension… back to the ants or whatever…
So instead of trying to find the origins of something we know exists, the universe, we claim it was created by something we have no evidence for then wrap it up in a whole load of caveats an bunkum to avoid people asking questions about it or testing it and instead insist it is taken on "faith".
Thankfully many people don't just accept or believe and so keep trying to find the true origins of the universe. Maybe they will finally find evidence of a god and maybe it did create the universe, but at least then it will be founded on research, thought and proof and not some cleric's say-so.
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Just for a moment to return to the original title of this thread...
Personally I don't have any patience or respect for people who take their own prejudices and hangups, dress them up with a veneer of compassion and faith, call it religion and shove it down other people's throats. The Swedish idiot is a fine example.
Why do people thank God but blame other people? I guess it's down to human nature and long term established reactions. "Thank God for..." is a very common phrase among believers and non-believers alike. Right or wrong, I don't think it's actually an issue of faith, just a turn of phrase.
Now I've been challenged to define God.
I can't.
I can say how I see God, but that's not a definition, even in the loosest sense. merely a personal viewpoint.
Before I do so, though, a couple of caveats and background statements. I'm a scientist by nature, I have an open and enquiring mind and I spent some time in HM Forces in various crappy locations. I'm not a born-again Christian, I don't believe that my faith is really anyone's business but my own and I am not seeking justification or vindication. This exercise is, to me, an enjoyable bit of intellectual sparring with some intelligent people who see things differently to me. That's all.
Let's do it, then...
SB
Personally I don't have any patience or respect for people who take their own prejudices and hangups, dress them up with a veneer of compassion and faith, call it religion and shove it down other people's throats. The Swedish idiot is a fine example.
Why do people thank God but blame other people? I guess it's down to human nature and long term established reactions. "Thank God for..." is a very common phrase among believers and non-believers alike. Right or wrong, I don't think it's actually an issue of faith, just a turn of phrase.
Now I've been challenged to define God.
I can't.
I can say how I see God, but that's not a definition, even in the loosest sense. merely a personal viewpoint.
Before I do so, though, a couple of caveats and background statements. I'm a scientist by nature, I have an open and enquiring mind and I spent some time in HM Forces in various crappy locations. I'm not a born-again Christian, I don't believe that my faith is really anyone's business but my own and I am not seeking justification or vindication. This exercise is, to me, an enjoyable bit of intellectual sparring with some intelligent people who see things differently to me. That's all.
Let's do it, then...
SB
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God - a *personal* definition
What/who is God?
I don't know.
But I have some ideas that may make sense. They do to me, anyhow, and as this is just my own take on a very big question then I guess that's all that matters.
First of all, I do not believe that God is a chap with a long white beard sitting on a cloud. In fact, I don't believe God has a clearly defined physical form at all. Think of a vaguely shaped mass of, for want of a better word, energy, and you're in the right direction. And that works with both the bible and science, too. God made man in his own image, and we evolved from single celled creatures. So God made life as a single celled creature that looked like he does. Hey - Eve came from Adam. That'll be single celled creatures replicating by cell division, then. It still works.
Some people say that God is love. That may well be fairly close to the truth, if we accept love as a positive force. It's not necessarily something you can measure using methods we have available to us now, but it's certainly very strong.
So if God is energy then we can have souls. How so? We run on electricity. Our nerve impulses, thoughts, dreams are all no more than electric currents pasisng through different areas. Where does that electric current go when we die? hey - perhaps it goes to the great capacitor in the sky. And if God is energy then he can be polarised and have an opposite. Which means that energy of the wrong type goes to the other terminal. Heaven and Hell, then.
But in truth I see God as a concept more than an entity. And I see God, or the hand of God, all around me in the everyday wonders that we take for granted.
For example. I understand why sunrises and sunsets are the glorious spectacles that they are. I know about refraction and the scattering effects of lower atmosphere particulates and I know the scientific reason why you get beautiful patterns in the sky. but why does refracted sunlight look so beautiful? Why does the atmosphere work exactly the right way to have that effect?
Why are some chemical bonds water soluble and some not? Ever farted in the bath? Course you have. But if the carbon-carbon and hydrogen-carbon bonds in your fart weren't insoluble, you'd get some pretty nasty acid burns every time you did it.
I'm not disputing that there is a scientific explanation for most, if not all, things we see. But that doesn't mean that the hand of God isn't involved in the grand design in the first place.
My belief is simple. I live right, I try to treat my fellow man with respect and courtesy and I have no doubt that when I die I will find out for sure whether there is an afterlife (and a God) or not. I believe, however, that there is. I hope I'm a decent person. I know I'm open minded. I'm sane as I reasonably can be, am fairly intelligent and I hope I'm rational.
Though some of you may question the last part...
SB
I don't know.
But I have some ideas that may make sense. They do to me, anyhow, and as this is just my own take on a very big question then I guess that's all that matters.
First of all, I do not believe that God is a chap with a long white beard sitting on a cloud. In fact, I don't believe God has a clearly defined physical form at all. Think of a vaguely shaped mass of, for want of a better word, energy, and you're in the right direction. And that works with both the bible and science, too. God made man in his own image, and we evolved from single celled creatures. So God made life as a single celled creature that looked like he does. Hey - Eve came from Adam. That'll be single celled creatures replicating by cell division, then. It still works.
Some people say that God is love. That may well be fairly close to the truth, if we accept love as a positive force. It's not necessarily something you can measure using methods we have available to us now, but it's certainly very strong.
So if God is energy then we can have souls. How so? We run on electricity. Our nerve impulses, thoughts, dreams are all no more than electric currents pasisng through different areas. Where does that electric current go when we die? hey - perhaps it goes to the great capacitor in the sky. And if God is energy then he can be polarised and have an opposite. Which means that energy of the wrong type goes to the other terminal. Heaven and Hell, then.
But in truth I see God as a concept more than an entity. And I see God, or the hand of God, all around me in the everyday wonders that we take for granted.
For example. I understand why sunrises and sunsets are the glorious spectacles that they are. I know about refraction and the scattering effects of lower atmosphere particulates and I know the scientific reason why you get beautiful patterns in the sky. but why does refracted sunlight look so beautiful? Why does the atmosphere work exactly the right way to have that effect?
Why are some chemical bonds water soluble and some not? Ever farted in the bath? Course you have. But if the carbon-carbon and hydrogen-carbon bonds in your fart weren't insoluble, you'd get some pretty nasty acid burns every time you did it.
I'm not disputing that there is a scientific explanation for most, if not all, things we see. But that doesn't mean that the hand of God isn't involved in the grand design in the first place.
My belief is simple. I live right, I try to treat my fellow man with respect and courtesy and I have no doubt that when I die I will find out for sure whether there is an afterlife (and a God) or not. I believe, however, that there is. I hope I'm a decent person. I know I'm open minded. I'm sane as I reasonably can be, am fairly intelligent and I hope I'm rational.
Though some of you may question the last part...
SB
Last edited by Sbradley; 05 January 2006 at 10:11 AM.
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Oh. Who created God? It had to come up at some point.
Here's a better one. Where did the matter come from that conglomerated to form the Big Bang?
Nowhere?
Somewhere?
Where, then?
SB
Here's a better one. Where did the matter come from that conglomerated to form the Big Bang?
Nowhere?
Somewhere?
Where, then?
SB
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
Why do people thank God but blame other people? I guess it's down to human nature and long term established reactions. "Thank God for..." is a very common phrase among believers and non-believers alike. Right or wrong, I don't think it's actually an issue of faith, just a turn of phrase.
Now I've been challenged to define God.
I can't.
I can't.
I can say how I see God, but that's not a definition, even in the loosest sense. merely a personal viewpoint.
Before I do so, though, a couple of caveats and background statements. I'm a scientist by nature, I have an open and enquiring mind and I spent some time in HM Forces in various crappy locations. I'm not a born-again Christian, I don't believe that my faith is really anyone's business but my own and I am not seeking justification or vindication. This exercise is, to me, an enjoyable bit of intellectual sparring with some intelligent people who see things differently to me. That's all.
Let's do it, then...
SB
Let's do it, then...
SB
#109
Red Five,
Your points which you made are about individuals in particular cases and their personal beliefs or excuses in Dubya's case. Nothing to do with a religion's basic teachings.
OllyK,
You have attempted the old trick of trying to take my points out of context.
Surely denial stems from disbelief, those two must go hand in hand. Perhap's you could explain the differences you mention.
Of course there are degrees of belief or disbelief. Basically you can accept God and religion, you can say you just do not know so remain an agnostic, or you just don't accept any possibility of an all powerful being. As I said, you are entitled to think what you like or more honestly to follow your own conscience. I personally would not castigate anyone for that whichever way they want to go. Why should I jump up and down and get frustrated because someone else wants to believe something different to me? As far as I am concerned it is their own business and good luck to them.
I do object however to people running down religiously minded people purely because they don't believe it is correct that they should do so. Live and let live I say. What harm are they doing to you? And all this tosh about blaming the world's troubles on religion is a non argument. It is people who cause the trouble and if they use the religion to their own selfish ends then that is not the fault of the religion or its true followers.
You say you have come to your conclusions through your own reasoning. Fine that is entirely down to you. I could not prove to you that there is a God and you cannot prove that there is not. And please don't waste time by trying to pull that one about it is down to prove His existence rather than His non existence. It does not hold water. Incidentally, your beliefs are based on scientific theories, not facts.
Finally let me point out a few things. Where have I said anywhere that there is a God? Let me remind you that I mentioned Natural Law in my previous post and that should answer your own final point in your post because I also did not say that you had to be religious to lead an honourable life.
Les
Your points which you made are about individuals in particular cases and their personal beliefs or excuses in Dubya's case. Nothing to do with a religion's basic teachings.
OllyK,
You have attempted the old trick of trying to take my points out of context.
Surely denial stems from disbelief, those two must go hand in hand. Perhap's you could explain the differences you mention.
Of course there are degrees of belief or disbelief. Basically you can accept God and religion, you can say you just do not know so remain an agnostic, or you just don't accept any possibility of an all powerful being. As I said, you are entitled to think what you like or more honestly to follow your own conscience. I personally would not castigate anyone for that whichever way they want to go. Why should I jump up and down and get frustrated because someone else wants to believe something different to me? As far as I am concerned it is their own business and good luck to them.
I do object however to people running down religiously minded people purely because they don't believe it is correct that they should do so. Live and let live I say. What harm are they doing to you? And all this tosh about blaming the world's troubles on religion is a non argument. It is people who cause the trouble and if they use the religion to their own selfish ends then that is not the fault of the religion or its true followers.
You say you have come to your conclusions through your own reasoning. Fine that is entirely down to you. I could not prove to you that there is a God and you cannot prove that there is not. And please don't waste time by trying to pull that one about it is down to prove His existence rather than His non existence. It does not hold water. Incidentally, your beliefs are based on scientific theories, not facts.
Finally let me point out a few things. Where have I said anywhere that there is a God? Let me remind you that I mentioned Natural Law in my previous post and that should answer your own final point in your post because I also did not say that you had to be religious to lead an honourable life.
Les
#110
Originally Posted by Leslie
And please don't waste time by trying to pull that one about it is down to prove His existence rather than His non existence. It does not hold water. Incidentally, your beliefs are based on scientific theories, not facts.
You can call me a Pillock like SBradley if you want - but given your stance on proof requirements he clearly does exist - along with the tooth fairy & God.
#113
richard dawkins said "without religion, good men do good and evil men do evil. in the name of religion, good men will also do evil." sums it up for me.
individual faith? fine. organised religion? rancid.
is there a god? nobody knows. what went bang? nobody knows. is evolution a reliable theory? looks like it. was there a virgin birth? unlikely. was there an historical figure called jesus crucified for heresy and subversion? looks like it. did he look on the bright side of life? probably not when he was on the cross. did he rise from the dead? unlikely, he probably rose from a coma if he rose at all.
all i know is that dinosaurs don't figure in the book of genesis and that makes literal creationists completely tonto in my book. however, the idea of a "garden of dudley" instead of a "garden of eden" does make me smile ...
one way or another, we'll all find out about paradise and the life everlasting when we kark it.
individual faith? fine. organised religion? rancid.
is there a god? nobody knows. what went bang? nobody knows. is evolution a reliable theory? looks like it. was there a virgin birth? unlikely. was there an historical figure called jesus crucified for heresy and subversion? looks like it. did he look on the bright side of life? probably not when he was on the cross. did he rise from the dead? unlikely, he probably rose from a coma if he rose at all.
all i know is that dinosaurs don't figure in the book of genesis and that makes literal creationists completely tonto in my book. however, the idea of a "garden of dudley" instead of a "garden of eden" does make me smile ...
one way or another, we'll all find out about paradise and the life everlasting when we kark it.
Last edited by Holy Ghost; 05 January 2006 at 01:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
What/who is God?
I don't know.
But I have some ideas that may make sense. They do to me, anyhow, and as this is just my own take on a very big question then I guess that's all that matters.
I don't know.
But I have some ideas that may make sense. They do to me, anyhow, and as this is just my own take on a very big question then I guess that's all that matters.
First of all, I do not believe that God is a chap with a long white beard sitting on a cloud.
In fact, I don't believe God has a clearly defined physical form at all. Think of a vaguely shaped mass of, for want of a better word, energy, and you're in the right direction.
And that works with both the bible and science, too. God made man in his own image, and we evolved from single celled creatures. So God made life as a single celled creature that looked like he does. Hey - Eve came from Adam. That'll be single celled creatures replicating by cell division, then. It still works.
Some people say that God is love. That may well be fairly close to the truth, if we accept love as a positive force. It's not necessarily something you can measure using methods we have available to us now, but it's certainly very strong.
So if God is energy then we can have souls. How so? We run on electricity. Our nerve impulses, thoughts, dreams are all no more than electric currents pasisng through different areas.
Where does that electric current go when we die?
hey - perhaps it goes to the great capacitor in the sky. And if God is energy then he can be polarised and have an opposite. Which means that energy of the wrong type goes to the other terminal. Heaven and Hell, then.
But in truth I see God as a concept more than an entity. And I see God, or the hand of God, all around me in the everyday wonders that we take for granted.
For example. I understand why sunrises and sunsets are the glorious spectacles that they are. I know about refraction and the scattering effects of lower atmosphere particulates and I know the scientific reason why you get beautiful patterns in the sky. but why does refracted sunlight look so beautiful? Why does the atmosphere work exactly the right way to have that effect?
Why are some chemical bonds water soluble and some not?
Ever farted in the bath? Course you have. But if the carbon-carbon and hydrogen-carbon bonds in your fart weren't insoluble, you'd get some pretty nasty acid burns every time you did it.
I'm not disputing that there is a scientific explanation for most, if not all, things we see. But that doesn't mean that the hand of God isn't involved in the grand design in the first place.
I'm not disputing that there is a scientific explanation for most, if not all, things we see. But that doesn't mean that the hand of God isn't involved in the grand design in the first place.
My belief is simple. I live right, I try to treat my fellow man with respect and courtesy and I have no doubt that when I die I will find out for sure whether there is an afterlife (and a God) or not. I believe, however, that there is. I hope I'm a decent person. I know I'm open minded. I'm sane as I reasonably can be, am fairly intelligent and I hope I'm rational.
Though some of you may question the last part...
SB
Though some of you may question the last part...
SB
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
Oh. Who created God? It had to come up at some point.
Here's a better one. Where did the matter come from that conglomerated to form the Big Bang?
Nowhere?
Somewhere?
Where, then?
SB
Here's a better one. Where did the matter come from that conglomerated to form the Big Bang?
Nowhere?
Somewhere?
Where, then?
SB
Some believe that the universe has always been, and in some context that is true as before "the big bang" there was no time. It may also be true in a broader context as well. It kind of makes sense to me in some ways if that is true as it gets round the need for creation and indeed a creaotr, it does however cause some head scratching over the concept of it always having existed.
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Olly, I reckon we're not too far short of being in agreement.
We just use different terminology
The soul comment, by the way, was a bit of an aside...
Happy New Year and may you long continue to find wonder in all around you
SB
We just use different terminology
The soul comment, by the way, was a bit of an aside...
Happy New Year and may you long continue to find wonder in all around you
SB
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Originally Posted by Leslie
OllyK,
You have attempted the old trick of trying to take my points out of context.
Surely denial stems from disbelief, those two must go hand in hand. Perhap's you could explain the differences you mention.
You have attempted the old trick of trying to take my points out of context.
Surely denial stems from disbelief, those two must go hand in hand. Perhap's you could explain the differences you mention.
denial - A refusal to accept the truth even when provided with evidence
disbelief - doubt about the truth of something due to lack of evidence.
Denial is saying something is wrong when given proof that it is right. As there is no proof currently of a god, then it is pretty hard to deny one. In reality some people deny there is even the possibility of a god which is the relams of hard atheism. Agnostics sit on the fence and say we don't know nor can we ever know. The soft atheists say there is nothing out there to suggest there is a god, however, if presented with some evidence I'll reconsider. The deniers / hard atheists are, in my experience few and far between and are no more likely, I would suggest, to commit attrocities and such than a religious fanatic.
The soft atheists on the whole are in their current position after many years of reading, digging and "soul" searching. Many even originally came from strong religious backgrounds.
It just struck me that your comment relating to "convenience" was more aptly fitting to the apathetic. I'm certainly not an atheist out of any kind of convenience.
Of course there are degrees of belief or disbelief.
Basically you can accept God and religion, you can say you just do not know so remain an agnostic, or you just don't accept any possibility of an all powerful being.
As I said, you are entitled to think what you like or more honestly to follow your own conscience. I personally would not castigate anyone for that whichever way they want to go. Why should I jump up and down and get frustrated because someone else wants to believe something different to me? As far as I am concerned it is their own business and good luck to them.
I do object however to people running down religiously minded people purely because they don't believe it is correct that they should do so. Live and let live I say.
Is the rest of this aimed at somebody else as it doesn't seem to have much bearing on what I have been saying?
What harm are they doing to you? And all this tosh about blaming the world's troubles on religion is a non argument. It is people who cause the trouble and if they use the religion to their own selfish ends then that is not the fault of the religion or its true followers.
You say you have come to your conclusions through your own reasoning. Fine that is entirely down to you. I could not prove to you that there is a God and you cannot prove that there is not. And please don't waste time by trying to pull that one about it is down to prove His existence rather than His non existence. It does not hold water. Incidentally, your beliefs are based on scientific theories, not facts.
Now who is trying to misrepresent? A scientific theory means so much more than a "hunch". Theory used in day to day English is the equivalent of a hypothesis. And what about the Laws??
Finally let me point out a few things. Where have I said anywhere that there is a God?
Let me remind you that I mentioned Natural Law in my previous post and that should answer your own final point in your post because I also did not say that you had to be religious to lead an honourable life.
Les
Les
Last edited by OllyK; 05 January 2006 at 01:54 PM.
#118
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
Olly, I reckon we're not too far short of being in agreement.
We just use different terminology
The soul comment, by the way, was a bit of an aside...
Happy New Year and may you long continue to find wonder in all around you
SB
We just use different terminology
The soul comment, by the way, was a bit of an aside...
Happy New Year and may you long continue to find wonder in all around you
SB
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Olly…
I don’t believe that there is 'very little' beyond human comprehension nowadays. If you really do think that, I would view it as perhaps naive. We have speculated a great deal about the Universe and what we see around us, but these are just theories or hypotheses based on our own comprehension and observations. This is why there is so much interest in black holes – those laws that physics is built on break down and what we know about the Universe no longer rings true - we have been forced to reconsider.
If you look into the most cutting edge research into the Universe you will find speculation about forces, dimensions and so on that in one form or another are undetectable to us – operating on a sub-space type level in you like. Again it’s all just mathematical theory, but it is an attempt to explain yet more of the Universe, for which unquestionable proof is probably not possible.
I don’t believe Science will ever be able to give us absolutely all the answers, firstly because we can't observe all these forces and energies that are now being discussed, and secondly because we do have finite mental capacity. This is not dumbing down mankind – just accepting that we do have limitations! You put words into my mouth there…
Something else that may be food for thought. We have already established that an incredible number of variables had to be exactly correct to make it possible for life to flourish on this planet. The same is true with the Universe – a similar number of variables had to be exactly right for planets and stars to form in the first place. It's like rolling a thousand six's that made it happen that we are here on this planet having this debate about the existence of a God or higher power. A fact that nobody can denying is not absolutely mind boggling. Maybe we are living in one of a trillion Universes...
It's personal choice. You choose not to believe in a God or a higher power because you see no evidence to suggest otherwise. Myself and many others think somewhat differently because from our view point it is very plausible. Yes mankind's knowledge will increase and we will be able to explain ever more. For me this takes us closer to, not further from 'God'.
I think we are both going through the same thought processes. You have just reached a different conclusion to me beyond the point at which proof one way or the other is possible.
Regarding my views on organised religion. I think in essence that anything, including religion, which encourages people to live a better life, is good. Given my views though, I don't personally understand why the higher power I believe in would care whether I went to Church on Sunday, ate Pork or not on Thursdays, or cut my hair short and didn't pray several times a day. Some of my friends are very religious though and think differently – I entirely respect their views!
I don’t believe that there is 'very little' beyond human comprehension nowadays. If you really do think that, I would view it as perhaps naive. We have speculated a great deal about the Universe and what we see around us, but these are just theories or hypotheses based on our own comprehension and observations. This is why there is so much interest in black holes – those laws that physics is built on break down and what we know about the Universe no longer rings true - we have been forced to reconsider.
If you look into the most cutting edge research into the Universe you will find speculation about forces, dimensions and so on that in one form or another are undetectable to us – operating on a sub-space type level in you like. Again it’s all just mathematical theory, but it is an attempt to explain yet more of the Universe, for which unquestionable proof is probably not possible.
I don’t believe Science will ever be able to give us absolutely all the answers, firstly because we can't observe all these forces and energies that are now being discussed, and secondly because we do have finite mental capacity. This is not dumbing down mankind – just accepting that we do have limitations! You put words into my mouth there…
Something else that may be food for thought. We have already established that an incredible number of variables had to be exactly correct to make it possible for life to flourish on this planet. The same is true with the Universe – a similar number of variables had to be exactly right for planets and stars to form in the first place. It's like rolling a thousand six's that made it happen that we are here on this planet having this debate about the existence of a God or higher power. A fact that nobody can denying is not absolutely mind boggling. Maybe we are living in one of a trillion Universes...
It's personal choice. You choose not to believe in a God or a higher power because you see no evidence to suggest otherwise. Myself and many others think somewhat differently because from our view point it is very plausible. Yes mankind's knowledge will increase and we will be able to explain ever more. For me this takes us closer to, not further from 'God'.
I think we are both going through the same thought processes. You have just reached a different conclusion to me beyond the point at which proof one way or the other is possible.
Regarding my views on organised religion. I think in essence that anything, including religion, which encourages people to live a better life, is good. Given my views though, I don't personally understand why the higher power I believe in would care whether I went to Church on Sunday, ate Pork or not on Thursdays, or cut my hair short and didn't pray several times a day. Some of my friends are very religious though and think differently – I entirely respect their views!
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Originally Posted by Ben v7
Olly…
I don’t believe that there is 'very little' beyond human comprehension nowadays.
I don’t believe that there is 'very little' beyond human comprehension nowadays.
If you really do think that, I would view it as perhaps naive. We have speculated a great deal about the Universe and what we see around us, but these are just theories or hypotheses based on our own comprehension and observations.
This is why there is so much interest in black holes – those laws that physics is built on break down and what we know about the Universe no longer rings true - we have been forced to reconsider.
If you look into the most cutting edge research into the Universe you will find speculation about forces, dimensions and so on that in one form or another are undetectable to us – operating on a sub-space type level in you like. Again it’s all just mathematical theory, but it is an attempt to explain yet more of the Universe, for which unquestionable proof is probably not possible.
I don’t believe Science will ever be able to give us absolutely all the answers, firstly because we can't observe all these forces and energies that are now being discussed, and secondly because we do have finite mental capacity. This is not dumbing down mankind – just accepting that we do have limitations! You put words into my mouth there…
Something else that may be food for thought. We have already established that an incredible number of variables had to be exactly correct to make it possible for life to flourish on this planet.
The same is true with the Universe – a similar number of variables had to be exactly right for planets and stars to form in the first place. It's like rolling a thousand six's that made it happen that we are here on this planet having this debate about the existence of a God or higher power. A fact that nobody can denying is not absolutely mind boggling. Maybe we are living in one of a trillion Universes...
It's personal choice. You choose not to believe in a God or a higher power because you see no evidence to suggest otherwise. Myself and many others think somewhat differently because from our view point it is very plausible.
Yes mankind's knowledge will increase and we will be able to explain ever more. For me this takes us closer to, not further from 'God'.
I think we are both going through the same thought processes. You have just reached a different conclusion to me beyond the point at which proof one way or the other is possible.
Regarding my views on organised religion. I think in essence that anything, including religion, which encourages people to live a better life, is good.
If you are trying to promote living a "moral" life where you respect life as a whole then fine, but why do you need to believe in a supreme being to do this?
Given my views though, I don't personally understand why the higher power I believe in would care whether I went to Church on Sunday, ate Pork or not on Thursdays, or cut my hair short and didn't pray several times a day. Some of my friends are very religious though and think differently – I entirely respect their views!
If you want to try and "knock" science then fair play, indeed science is always trying to pick holes in its own theories. But you will lack credibility if your undestanding of the basics is shown to be seriously lacking. If you want to get in to understanding the scientific process and critically evaluating your own thoughts and ideas (assuming you are prepared to re-open your mind) then I'd be happy to point you in the direction of some good web based resources to get you started. Likewise, if you can provide links to sites that put a convincing case for a supreme being then I'd be happy to read them, but please note that it needs to be based on evidence and not "feelings" and anecdotes.
As a starter have a look at this this forum, you need to register but it's free.