Dream Weaver

A few of you have it in for the Scoob driver in this case, because he "allegedly" had hi kids in teh car, and then "allegedly" told them to keep quiet (we dont really know the truth).

The worrying thing is this. Your driving your Scoob along innocently, a couple of lads come by you racing and then one of them stacks it and dies. Witnesses see the whole thing, and somehow they include the innocent Scoob driver (you) within the "race".

Goes to court, and you end up in jail for simply being near someone elses mess.

There must be more to this story than we know.

HowiesPreza

There's no doubt there's more to it and the guy's a lunatic doing that with kids in the car but for the MG drivers family to try and avoid the issue that he was somewhat involved in a race and saying "he gets all he deserves, his driving was perfect" etc etc is unbelievable!

People only see what they want to see.

Diablo

IIRC there have been a few cases like this one.

Bottom line is, when did the media ever let the truth get in the way of a good story?

Having said that, if you are involved in "racing" on the public highway, and someone dies, you are gulity of causing death by reckless driving in the eyes of the law. For taking part in an event that ends up in someone's death.

It takes 2 to race, and it appears that if the Subaru driver in question hadn't been involved, the guy in the MG would not be dead.

That's not to say Mr 69 year old impeccable record wouldn't have stacked it on his own one day.

But at the end of the day, legally, subaru driver is guilty of an offence that carries a custodial sentence, even if the death was simply down to the MG driver being unable to control his car.

Two people shoot, only one hits the victim. Doesn't mean the one that missed isn't guilty.

Ultimately, it may not be "fair", but it is the law, and we should all be very wary of that.

flynnstudio

That analogy isn't correct...

how about...

Two men climb a mountain - one falls off - other man guilty ?

Diablo

It is correct.

There is nothing illegal about climbing a mountain.

flynnstudio

And shooting each other is legal ?

Analogies are not meant to be literal...hence yours...

Thus , according to your analogy the guy in the MG was attempting murder and the guy in the scooby committed murder...only the guy in the scooby 'dodged the bullet' and lived ????

Not correct...

If you must use bullets...how about

Two men play Russian Roulette.

One man blows his brains out - other man guilty ?

Diablo

LOL

whatever

You're looking at it backwards.

Leave the MG driver out of it, for a minute.

the driver of the scoob was either directly responsible for forcing the MG off the road (he shoots, he hits) or he was just racing (he shoots, he misses)

Either way, he was still involved in illegal racing (he shoots) and is either guilty of murder (he hits the victim) or death by reckless (he misses)

In your climbing example, there was no illegal activity, hence its wide of the mark.

flynnstudio

OK..I'll play for a while...

Unfortunately your analogy requires incredible speculation that is not known or apparent...

Fundamentally your suggesting deliberate INTENT to cause DEATH - AKA MURDER! - a pre-meditated and wilful determination to KILL the other driver.
Worse even - your suggesting that they both SET OUT to MURDER EACH OTHER in a 'pistols at dawn' shoot-out. Neither party would have seriously or knowingly entered into a game where they were ASSURED by the rules of engagement that one or both of the parties involved wourl end up DEAD!

Where as I'm suggesting that TWO consenting adults embarked on a perilous and dangerous adventure together - some viewing the climb by binoculars say reckless. One had better climbing gear and more experience on this particular piste, the other a novice climber ( unbeknown to the more experienced climber )tried to keep up, pursuing over icy ravines and across treachorous chasm's.
Tragically Morris Gardner fell to his death when his crampon slipped...Minty covered his eyes and kept on climbing...there may have been a chance Minty could have saved Morris by stopping and checking his condition, perhaps taking him back down the mountain - he didn't which was morally wrong.

(also Minty had two small children in his rucksack which is just utterly stupid)

Steve001

iTrader: (7)

as far as im concered the scooby driver was guilty of 2 things

1. racing at stupid speeds (130+ is well OTT)

2. and far more serious, leaving the scene!!! that alone would stay with me for the rest of my life, what if he had stopped and assited in SAVING the guys life, phoned an ambulance etc. what he did here is equal to a hit & run

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Exactly, that's basically the nightmare scenario that this mess raises. We all get baited by idiots in other cars -sometimes on numerous times in a day- I once had a clapped out Escort overtake me on a B road- a very dangerous and totally unecessary move on his part- I was at the national speed limit behind a lorry and the layout of the road did not afford overtaking opportunities. He nearly hit an oncomming car in the process.

What if he had of stacked it, and an observer had concluded that we must be racing owing to my choice of car and his attempt to get past me. Am I going to prison for someone else being a ****?

I wasn't there and am not privy to all the details, but I do know one thing: no-one forces you to do those kind of speeds on a B road. The deceased chose to do those speeds, even assuming that the Subaru driver was driving agressively behind him goading him -which is not claimed- there would have been other options open to him. Unless I see evidence of contact, I think the only likely conclusion is that both were driving like loons, one got away with it, the other crashed. But, at the day, HE chose to -at least perpetuate, I don't know who instigated it- a dangerous situation and HE crashed.

I do not see that is the Subaru driver's fault, as reprehensible as his behaviour was.

Sounds more like death by misadventure to me.

Ns04

flynnstudio

Dead right - this is why he's doing time - bang out of order leaving that guy without stopping and taking some responsibility for the OUTCOME of the event...

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

You would hope he's doing time primarily cause he was found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving. Although whether he deserved to be convicted of that particular offence is what is obliquely being debated i.e. Did he cause the crash, or was it just party to a dangerous state of affiars in which somone else crashed and is now carrying the can.

Ns04

Ben v7

Have to agree with NS04.

We are all responsible for our own actions. Subaru driver was responsible for racing (if indeed he was racing). MG driver was responsible for racing and his own death (assuming he didn't lose control of his car as a direct result of the Subaru drivers actions). The Subaru owner should be punished for racing only in my opinion.

Steve001

iTrader: (7)

AND leaving the scene

FGS if someone trips up in the street you would stop and ask if they were ok!

the guy (if he has a concience) must be asking himself 'was there anything i could have done'???

Ben v7

Agree with you - he should of stopped.

Crosstalk

And yet we have a poll right on this board where most people claim they race on public roads when "in their opinion" its safe to do so.

D'you think the scooby driver, or the other guy, in this case believed that it was unsafe to do what they were doing? I mean I can't imagine they were thinking "I'll race this other car, although I really think one us will crash in the attempt"!

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Yep, agreed, he knew he was bang out of order and acted like a coward and lied. He deserves to be punished for that too. In taking the above course of action, he's only directed more suspicion at himself; casting doubt over the credibility of his testimony and making himself look like he has something more to hide.

Here's the REALLY bad implication of this outcome though, and something THAT EVERYONE SHOULD REALISE.

Let's say "Nova Boi" is following you, perfectly legal speeds, but then -in trying to overtake you- stacks it.

What, given the above, is NOW the probability of someone stopping and not just taking to their heels? Of course you should stop morally and are obliged to do so via law. BUT, given the above, what if somone else concludes you must of been racing owing to the cars involved or Nova boi claims he was racing you-even if you had no idea and had just assumed he was driving poorly. You face having your licence taken away, and possibly your liberty owing to the actions of another person, who's dangerous game you may well have wanted nothing to do with!?!?!

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Ns04

Steve001

iTrader: (7)

too right, its very scary the claim companies could have a field day with this one!! not to mension the insurance co. putting your policy up

Guilty until proven Guilty (by just being in the general area)

Ben v7

What worries me is that some people may actually deliberately flee the scene of an accident now because they will fear prosecution of this type. Could well prove counter productive.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I just have a bad feeling that the Moron Press are gonna start with "Ban these killer cars"!

This case illustrates two things:

-People often don't want to take resonsibility for THEIR OWN actions when things go wrong, easier to scapegoat.

-It's not skill so much as restraint that is the most important quality you need to posses before being trusted with a performance car...


Oh, and

-Some people *really* shouldn't have kids!!!!

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

A good- if not exactly original point! (see above mate)

Ns04

Steve001

iTrader: (7)

at this rate Top Gear will have to be shown after the 9pm watershed!!!

MY93WRX

Surley in this example there is no proof of speed, so you would not be liable, in the incident at hand there was proof of speed.

Stephen Pope

IMHO, 69 year old men do not drive an MG sportscar unless they have had some interest in cars in their lives. None of us know what happened however here is a theory that should wory us all: Old guy in MG provokes Scooby - alot of us would 'smoke him.' He wraps his piece of **** and then we get banged up? Just a scenario but it does take two to tango. Terrible shame about the losses though........

mg driver

are all scooby owners that ugly,he even looks like a criminal.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

A witness saying that in their opinion you were racing may be sufficient mate. Speed per se only tells you so much. In the above examples the speeds were so excessive there could only really be one conclusion, but its not always as clear cut.

Ns04

MY93WRX

I know for a fact from a legal stance a witness saying your travelling fast is not acceptable, they can't prove speed. I Know this as i take insurance claims and the amount of people who say he was travelling too fast get the standard answer Legal answer - Prove it! The ony way it can be proved is usually by Police with a calibrated Speed gun or video footage with time markers, & now it appears by looking at the ECU

flynnstudio

So that would imply the ECU has some kind of bubble memory chip which stores masses of time/date/speed data - how long after the event was it before they impounded his car? must have been hours if not days...or are they just saying 'at some point this car has exceeded 138mph!'

so bloody vague!

Just a 10 mile run could generate a ton of speed data - where is it stored ?

Surely this must be verifable by mappers/tuners out there ?

Would the cops have the tech to extract this ?

Doesn't sound right to me...It's either been had from Trackstar ( which brings MASSIVE privacy implications for everyone and I mean everyone ) or he had some kind of after market engine management h/w

16vmarc

I dont know if this has already been said but I dont think he was to blame for the the other drivers death. They both knew what they were doing. Both were driving wrecklessly. He deserves every other charge though.

chief-long-shin

there is a q and a section on the tracker website.

www.tracker.co.uk

I'm sure i recollect that there was some data that they could analyse.

E.g if car is moving quick is it stolen kinda scenario. Dont quote me but take a look as there was something there.