Some "expert" advice on oil (long post)
30 January 2006, 11:56 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by pslewis
They don't recommend KY or Vavolene or silkolene or vaseline or motul or Anusoil either ................................ 
Pete
Pete
Subaru recommend Shell Helix not Comma, fact.
"Pete, I think unless someone posts on here asking for an oil relevant to purely driving where the engine speed barely exceeds idle then your input is close to worthless."
His posts are worse than useless, unless you enjoy a good larf at his expense
30 January 2006, 11:58 PM
#32
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Is it just the price you object to pete ? ...or do you fundamentally believe, regardless of all scientific and historical evidence, that synthetic oil offers no addition protection to stock mineral oil ?
...because the thing is - you use a semi-synthetic oil - therefore a % of the protection afforded to your car is given by the synthetic elements of your chosen oil brand...
are they 'good synthetics' when mixed with a bit of mineral oil but 'bad' synthetics when purely in fully synthetic oils ?
Not being provocative here -I'm just fully trying to understand your stance on the matter...
...because the thing is - you use a semi-synthetic oil - therefore a % of the protection afforded to your car is given by the synthetic elements of your chosen oil brand...
are they 'good synthetics' when mixed with a bit of mineral oil but 'bad' synthetics when purely in fully synthetic oils ?
Not being provocative here -I'm just fully trying to understand your stance on the matter...
31 January 2006, 12:02 AM
#33
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Subaru recommend Semi
Comma recommend Semi
Wherever I look they recommend Semi
Why waste money on FULLY???
Makes no sense whatsoever .........
Anyway, bedtime .............. goodnight all ..... carry on spitting your dummies out!
Pete
Comma recommend Semi
Wherever I look they recommend Semi
Why waste money on FULLY???
Makes no sense whatsoever .........
Anyway, bedtime .............. goodnight all ..... carry on spitting your dummies out!
Pete
@oilman
31 January 2006, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
Subaru recommend Semi
Comma recommend Semi
Wherever I look they recommend Semi
Why waste money on FULLY???
Makes no sense whatsoever .........
Anyway, bedtime .............. goodnight all ..... carry on spitting your dummies out!
Pete
Comma recommend Semi
Wherever I look they recommend Semi
Why waste money on FULLY???
Makes no sense whatsoever .........
Anyway, bedtime .............. goodnight all ..... carry on spitting your dummies out!
Pete
I see you tactfully but plainly avoided answering my question...which is in it's way it's own answer...
Goodnight Pete...
31 January 2006, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 16vmarc
Shell Helix 5w 40 fully synthetic for me, which incidently is the same consistancy as your 10w 40 once up to temperature
31 January 2006, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_S
Never said they did but YOU said that you use what Subaru recommend.
Subaru recommend Shell Helix not Comma, fact.
"Pete, I think unless someone posts on here asking for an oil relevant to purely driving where the engine speed barely exceeds idle then your input is close to worthless."
His posts are worse than useless, unless you enjoy a good larf at his expense
Subaru recommend Shell Helix not Comma, fact.
"Pete, I think unless someone posts on here asking for an oil relevant to purely driving where the engine speed barely exceeds idle then your input is close to worthless."
His posts are worse than useless, unless you enjoy a good larf at his expense
31 January 2006, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by flynnstudio
If you use a semi-synthetic oil - therefore a % of the protection afforded to your car is given by the synthetic elements of your chosen oil brand...
are they 'good synthetics' when mixed with a bit of mineral oil but 'bad' synthetics when purely in fully synthetic oils ?
are they 'good synthetics' when mixed with a bit of mineral oil but 'bad' synthetics when purely in fully synthetic oils ?
31 January 2006, 12:23 AM
#39
All oils are comprised of basestocks and additives. Basestocks make up the majority of the finished product and represent between 75-95%.
Not all basestocks are derived from petroleum, in fact the better quality ones are synthetics made in laboratories by chemists specifically designed for the application for which they are intended.
Basestocks are classified in 5 Groups as follows:
Group I
These are derived from petroleum and are the least refined. These are used in a small amount of automotive oils where the applications are not demanding.
Group II
These are derived from petroleum and are mainly used in mineral automotive oils. Their performance is acceptable with regards to wear, thermal stability and oxidation stability but not so good at lower temperatures.
Group III
These are derived from petroleum but are the most refined of the mineral oil basestocks. They are not chemically engineered like synthetics but offer the highest level of performance of all the petroleum basestocks. They are also known as “hydrocracked” or “molecularly modified” basestocks.
They are usually labelled/marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic oils and make up a very high percentage of the oils retailed today.
Group IV
These are polyalphaolefins known as PAO and are chemically manufactured rather than being dug out of the ground. These basestocks have excellent stability in both hot and cold temperatures and give superior protection due to their uniform molecules.
Group V
These special basestocks are also chemically engineered but are not PAO.
The main types used in automotive oils are diesters and polyolesters. Like the group IV basestocks they have uniform molecules and give superior performance and protection over petroleum basestocks. These special stocks are used in all aviation engines due to their stability and durability. Esters are also polar (electro statically attracted to metal surfaces) which has great benefits. They are usually blended with Group IV stocks rather than being used exclusively.
It is common practice for oil companies to blend different basestocks to achieve a certain specification, performance or cost. The blending of group IV and V produces lubricants with the best overall performance which cannot be matched by any of the petroleum basestock groups.
Cheers
Simon
Not all basestocks are derived from petroleum, in fact the better quality ones are synthetics made in laboratories by chemists specifically designed for the application for which they are intended.
Basestocks are classified in 5 Groups as follows:
Group I
These are derived from petroleum and are the least refined. These are used in a small amount of automotive oils where the applications are not demanding.
Group II
These are derived from petroleum and are mainly used in mineral automotive oils. Their performance is acceptable with regards to wear, thermal stability and oxidation stability but not so good at lower temperatures.
Group III
These are derived from petroleum but are the most refined of the mineral oil basestocks. They are not chemically engineered like synthetics but offer the highest level of performance of all the petroleum basestocks. They are also known as “hydrocracked” or “molecularly modified” basestocks.
They are usually labelled/marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic oils and make up a very high percentage of the oils retailed today.
Group IV
These are polyalphaolefins known as PAO and are chemically manufactured rather than being dug out of the ground. These basestocks have excellent stability in both hot and cold temperatures and give superior protection due to their uniform molecules.
Group V
These special basestocks are also chemically engineered but are not PAO.
The main types used in automotive oils are diesters and polyolesters. Like the group IV basestocks they have uniform molecules and give superior performance and protection over petroleum basestocks. These special stocks are used in all aviation engines due to their stability and durability. Esters are also polar (electro statically attracted to metal surfaces) which has great benefits. They are usually blended with Group IV stocks rather than being used exclusively.
It is common practice for oil companies to blend different basestocks to achieve a certain specification, performance or cost. The blending of group IV and V produces lubricants with the best overall performance which cannot be matched by any of the petroleum basestock groups.
Cheers
Simon
31 January 2006, 12:32 AM
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Thanks simon - a very speedy and knowledgable response - from one who knows his stuff!
From that I can derive that the weakest component in a semi-synthetic oil is the mineral oil....
Essentially it really does boil down to 'You get what you pay for'...
Cheers,
From that I can derive that the weakest component in a semi-synthetic oil is the mineral oil....
Essentially it really does boil down to 'You get what you pay for'...
Cheers,
31 January 2006, 12:35 AM
#41
The basic benefits are as follows:
Extended oil drain periods
Better wear protection and therefore extended engine life
Most synthetics give better MPG
They flow better when cold and are more thermally stable when hot
Esters are surface-active meaning a thin layer of oil on the surfaces at all times
Stable Basestocks
Synthetic oils are designed from pure, uniform synthetic basestocks, they contain no contaminants or unstable molecules which are prone to thermal and oxidative break down.
Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic lubricants operate with less internal and external friction than petroleum oils which have a non-uniform molecular structure.
The result is better heat control, and less heat means less stress to the lubricant.
Higher Percentage of Basestock
Synthetic oils contain a higher percentage of lubricant basestock than petroleum oils do. This is because multi-viscosity oils need a great deal of pour point depressant and viscosity improvers to operate as a multigrade.
The basestocks actually do most of the lubricating. More basestocks mean a longer oil life.
Additives Used Up More Slowly
Petroleum basestocks are much more prone to oxidation than synthetic oils. Oxidation inhibitors are needed in greater quantities in petroleum oils as they are used up more quickly.
Synthetic oils do oxidize, but at a much slower rate therefore, oxidation inhibiting additives are used up more slowly.
Synthetic oils provide for better ring seal than petroleum oils do. This minimizes blow-by and reduces contamination by combustion by-products. As a result, corrosion inhibiting additives have less work to do and will last much longer in a synthetic oil.
Excellent Heat Tolerance
Synthetics are simply more tolerant to extreme heat than petroleum oils are. When heat builds up within an engine, petroleum oils quickly begin to burn off. They are more volatile. The lighter molecules within petroleum oils turn to gas and what's left are the large molecules that are harder to pump.
Synthetics have far more resistance as they are more thermally stable to begin with and can take higher temperatures for longer periods without losing viscosity.
Heat Reduction
One of the major factors affecting engine life is component wear and/or failure, which is often the result of high temperature operation. The uniformly smooth molecular structure of synthetic oils gives them a much lower coefficient friction (they slip more easily over one another causing less friction) than petroleum oils.
Less friction means less heat and heat is a major contributor to engine component wear and failure, synthetic oils significantly reduce these two detrimental effects.
Since each molecule in a synthetic oil is of uniform size, each is equally likely to touch a component surface at any given time, thus moving a certain amount of heat into the oil stream and away from the component. This makes synthetic oils far superior heat transfer agents than conventional petroleum oils.
Greater Film Strength
Petroleum motor oils have very low film strength in comparison to synthetics. The film strength of a lubricant refers to it's ability to maintain a film of lubricant between two objects when extreme pressure and heat are applied.
Synthetic oils will typically have a film strength of 5 to 10 times higher than petroleum oils of comparable viscosity.
Even though heavier weight oils typically have higher film strength than lighter weight oils, an sae 30 or 40 synthetic will typically have a higher film strength than an sae 50 or sae 60 petroleum oil.
A lighter grade synthetic can still maintain proper lubricity and reduce the chance of metal to metal contact. This means that you can use oils that provide far better fuel efficiency and cold weather protection without sacrificing engine protection under high temperature, high load conditions. Obviously, this is a big plus, because you can greatly reduce both cold temperature start-up wear and high temperature/high load engine wear using a low viscosity oil.
Engine Deposit Reduction
Petroleum oils tend to leave sludge, varnish and deposits behind after thermal and oxidative break down. They're better than they used to be, but it still occurs.
Deposit build-up leads to a significant reduction in engine performance and engine life as well as increasing the chance of costly repairs.
Synthetic oils have far superior thermal and oxidative stability and they leave engines virtually varnish, deposit and sludge-free.
Better Cold Temperature Fluidity
Synthetic oils do not contain the paraffins or other waxes which dramatically thicken petroleum oils during cold weather. As a result, they tend to flow much better during cold temperature starts and begin lubricating an engine almost immediately. This leads to significant engine wear reduction, and, therefore, longer engine life.
Improved Fuel Economy
Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic oils are tremendous friction reducers. Less friction leads to increased fuel economy and improved engine performance.
This means that more energy released from the combustion process can be transferred directly to the wheels due to the lower friction. Acceleration is more responsive and more powerful, using less fuel in the process.
In a petroleum oil, lighter molecules tend to boil off easily, leaving behind much heavier molecules which are difficult to pump. The engine loses more energy pumping these heavy molecules than if it were pumping lighter ones.
Since synthetic oils have more uniform molecules, fewer of these molecules tend to boil off and when they do, the molecules which are left are of the same size and pumpability is not affected.
Synthetics are better and in many ways, they are basically better by design as they are created by chemists in laboratories for a specific purpose.
Cheers
Simon
Extended oil drain periods
Better wear protection and therefore extended engine life
Most synthetics give better MPG
They flow better when cold and are more thermally stable when hot
Esters are surface-active meaning a thin layer of oil on the surfaces at all times
Stable Basestocks
Synthetic oils are designed from pure, uniform synthetic basestocks, they contain no contaminants or unstable molecules which are prone to thermal and oxidative break down.
Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic lubricants operate with less internal and external friction than petroleum oils which have a non-uniform molecular structure.
The result is better heat control, and less heat means less stress to the lubricant.
Higher Percentage of Basestock
Synthetic oils contain a higher percentage of lubricant basestock than petroleum oils do. This is because multi-viscosity oils need a great deal of pour point depressant and viscosity improvers to operate as a multigrade.
The basestocks actually do most of the lubricating. More basestocks mean a longer oil life.
Additives Used Up More Slowly
Petroleum basestocks are much more prone to oxidation than synthetic oils. Oxidation inhibitors are needed in greater quantities in petroleum oils as they are used up more quickly.
Synthetic oils do oxidize, but at a much slower rate therefore, oxidation inhibiting additives are used up more slowly.
Synthetic oils provide for better ring seal than petroleum oils do. This minimizes blow-by and reduces contamination by combustion by-products. As a result, corrosion inhibiting additives have less work to do and will last much longer in a synthetic oil.
Excellent Heat Tolerance
Synthetics are simply more tolerant to extreme heat than petroleum oils are. When heat builds up within an engine, petroleum oils quickly begin to burn off. They are more volatile. The lighter molecules within petroleum oils turn to gas and what's left are the large molecules that are harder to pump.
Synthetics have far more resistance as they are more thermally stable to begin with and can take higher temperatures for longer periods without losing viscosity.
Heat Reduction
One of the major factors affecting engine life is component wear and/or failure, which is often the result of high temperature operation. The uniformly smooth molecular structure of synthetic oils gives them a much lower coefficient friction (they slip more easily over one another causing less friction) than petroleum oils.
Less friction means less heat and heat is a major contributor to engine component wear and failure, synthetic oils significantly reduce these two detrimental effects.
Since each molecule in a synthetic oil is of uniform size, each is equally likely to touch a component surface at any given time, thus moving a certain amount of heat into the oil stream and away from the component. This makes synthetic oils far superior heat transfer agents than conventional petroleum oils.
Greater Film Strength
Petroleum motor oils have very low film strength in comparison to synthetics. The film strength of a lubricant refers to it's ability to maintain a film of lubricant between two objects when extreme pressure and heat are applied.
Synthetic oils will typically have a film strength of 5 to 10 times higher than petroleum oils of comparable viscosity.
Even though heavier weight oils typically have higher film strength than lighter weight oils, an sae 30 or 40 synthetic will typically have a higher film strength than an sae 50 or sae 60 petroleum oil.
A lighter grade synthetic can still maintain proper lubricity and reduce the chance of metal to metal contact. This means that you can use oils that provide far better fuel efficiency and cold weather protection without sacrificing engine protection under high temperature, high load conditions. Obviously, this is a big plus, because you can greatly reduce both cold temperature start-up wear and high temperature/high load engine wear using a low viscosity oil.
Engine Deposit Reduction
Petroleum oils tend to leave sludge, varnish and deposits behind after thermal and oxidative break down. They're better than they used to be, but it still occurs.
Deposit build-up leads to a significant reduction in engine performance and engine life as well as increasing the chance of costly repairs.
Synthetic oils have far superior thermal and oxidative stability and they leave engines virtually varnish, deposit and sludge-free.
Better Cold Temperature Fluidity
Synthetic oils do not contain the paraffins or other waxes which dramatically thicken petroleum oils during cold weather. As a result, they tend to flow much better during cold temperature starts and begin lubricating an engine almost immediately. This leads to significant engine wear reduction, and, therefore, longer engine life.
Improved Fuel Economy
Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic oils are tremendous friction reducers. Less friction leads to increased fuel economy and improved engine performance.
This means that more energy released from the combustion process can be transferred directly to the wheels due to the lower friction. Acceleration is more responsive and more powerful, using less fuel in the process.
In a petroleum oil, lighter molecules tend to boil off easily, leaving behind much heavier molecules which are difficult to pump. The engine loses more energy pumping these heavy molecules than if it were pumping lighter ones.
Since synthetic oils have more uniform molecules, fewer of these molecules tend to boil off and when they do, the molecules which are left are of the same size and pumpability is not affected.
Synthetics are better and in many ways, they are basically better by design as they are created by chemists in laboratories for a specific purpose.
Cheers
Simon
31 January 2006, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by flynnstudio
I'd REALLY like someone to answer this question for me...because I think it NAILS this debate for once and for all..
Steve.
31 January 2006, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by oilman
The basic benefits are as follows:
I enjoy a technical read, but without attributing an article to an author it cannot be taken as truely meaningful. Anyone authoring such an important technical article must surely be peer reviewed.....
Kind regards,
Steve
31 January 2006, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by M1BJR
It was not concerning whether Synth was 'better' than Semi, merely whether the cost difference is justified in a regular car.
(A 265BHP Turbo charged Impreza is not a regular car)
anyway, off to bed...goodnight...
31 January 2006, 08:13 AM
#45
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As I am a masochist I am going to ask oil expert Pete a direct question - not a quote from any experts - actual experience from and actual Subaru driver relflecting the experience of other drivers.
Pete,
I hope you address my question this time as last time you kindly ignored it.
This refers to the use of oil in mildly tuned Subaru engines that are used for fast road and track. Not a high state of tune - between 300-350bhp in an Sti engine and other cars with a similar state of tune.
Using mineral and lower order oils - Mobil 1 synthetic for example - in fast road/track conditions the oil vapourises. On a track day Mobil 1 can vapourise over a litre. If a catch can is not use this vapour will be reentering the engine.
So for the very many drivers who use their cars on fast road and on track without a catch can their cars are ingesting oil. Indeed if you could do a search, every so often on this BBS you will get someone posting that their intercooler and pipes are filling up with liquid oil after a hard drive and they do not know where it is coming from. It is not turbo bearings and they remain puzzled. It is the oil vapour from cheap oil condensing as it returns through the breather system.
All very well you may add - it was designed to do that with the breather system.
Except no they aren't. Even with Subarus millions, here is an engine that with less competent oil that will be ingesting significant amounts of oil vapour when the going gets tough.
And the result of this - measurable and increasing detonation. This can been recorded on track. I never realised it at the time, but changing oil and it went away. And why is detonation an issue - because it is one of THE most significant factors in engine failure on a Subaru. Blown pistons, ring lands and failed bearings are all a consequence of detonation.
The ONLY oil I have used that does not do this is MOTUL. Indeed THE OIL recommended by Prodrive and used by Prodrive in their rally cars. I wonder why. There can be no commercial spin off as they do not recommend it for the road cars as you rightly point out.
This issue has been noted by a number of drivers and it is an issue that is not restricted to Subaru engines - hot turbo engines seem to suffer generally. Of course if anyone has direct experience of other oils resisting this then I would love to hear of it - I believe AMSOil offers similar overall protection.
So to summarise - the capability of an oil is not just its basic specification viscosity index, it is a multidimensional capability that includes volatility, resistance to carbonisation, drain and many other factors.
I look forward to you sharing your expertise on this dimension of oil usage.
Rannoch
Pete,
I hope you address my question this time as last time you kindly ignored it.
This refers to the use of oil in mildly tuned Subaru engines that are used for fast road and track. Not a high state of tune - between 300-350bhp in an Sti engine and other cars with a similar state of tune.
Using mineral and lower order oils - Mobil 1 synthetic for example - in fast road/track conditions the oil vapourises. On a track day Mobil 1 can vapourise over a litre. If a catch can is not use this vapour will be reentering the engine.
So for the very many drivers who use their cars on fast road and on track without a catch can their cars are ingesting oil. Indeed if you could do a search, every so often on this BBS you will get someone posting that their intercooler and pipes are filling up with liquid oil after a hard drive and they do not know where it is coming from. It is not turbo bearings and they remain puzzled. It is the oil vapour from cheap oil condensing as it returns through the breather system.
All very well you may add - it was designed to do that with the breather system.
Except no they aren't. Even with Subarus millions, here is an engine that with less competent oil that will be ingesting significant amounts of oil vapour when the going gets tough.
And the result of this - measurable and increasing detonation. This can been recorded on track. I never realised it at the time, but changing oil and it went away. And why is detonation an issue - because it is one of THE most significant factors in engine failure on a Subaru. Blown pistons, ring lands and failed bearings are all a consequence of detonation.
The ONLY oil I have used that does not do this is MOTUL. Indeed THE OIL recommended by Prodrive and used by Prodrive in their rally cars. I wonder why. There can be no commercial spin off as they do not recommend it for the road cars as you rightly point out.
This issue has been noted by a number of drivers and it is an issue that is not restricted to Subaru engines - hot turbo engines seem to suffer generally. Of course if anyone has direct experience of other oils resisting this then I would love to hear of it - I believe AMSOil offers similar overall protection.
So to summarise - the capability of an oil is not just its basic specification viscosity index, it is a multidimensional capability that includes volatility, resistance to carbonisation, drain and many other factors.
I look forward to you sharing your expertise on this dimension of oil usage.
Rannoch
Last edited by Trout; 31 January 2006 at 08:16 AM.
31 January 2006, 08:18 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by M1BJR
Perhaps we have all lost the original train of thought amoungst all the squabbling. It was not concerning whether Synth was 'better' than Semi, merely whether the cost difference is justified in a regular car.
Steve.
Steve.
Even if the "quality" synthetics weren't demonstrably better than the likes of Shell Helix -which I don't think anyone is arguing- it's not a whole heap of money it has to be said.
I don't doubt for a minute that what Subaru recommend is good enough, but the fact is there is better out there and it is a performance car, so for the sake of £14 every six months I don't compromise.
NS04
31 January 2006, 08:38 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by New_scooby_04
I did wonder about the cost issue and looked into it recently: it transpired that I pay about £14 more -every 6 months- for Silkolene Pro S i.e. than for Shell Helix.
Even if the "quality" synthetics weren't demonstrably better than the likes of Shell Helix -which I don't think anyone is arguing- it's not a whole heap of money it has to be said.
I don't doubt for a minute that what Subaru recommend is good enough, but the fact is there is better out there and it is a performance car, so for the sake of £14 every six months I don't compromise.
NS04
Even if the "quality" synthetics weren't demonstrably better than the likes of Shell Helix -which I don't think anyone is arguing- it's not a whole heap of money it has to be said.
I don't doubt for a minute that what Subaru recommend is good enough, but the fact is there is better out there and it is a performance car, so for the sake of £14 every six months I don't compromise.
NS04
Oilman NEVER answered the question why the Expensive Oil comes in FOUR litres???
I suspect it is to rip-off the punter a 2nd time ................ (not by Oilman, he just sells it - but by the manufacturer of said expensive oil!)
Pete
31 January 2006, 08:43 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by Rannoch
All very well you may add - it was designed to do that with the breather system.
Except no they aren't. Even with Subarus millions, here is an engine that with less competent oil that will be ingesting significant amounts of oil vapour when the going gets tough.
Rannoch
Except no they aren't. Even with Subarus millions, here is an engine that with less competent oil that will be ingesting significant amounts of oil vapour when the going gets tough.
Rannoch
Please point me to where I said, "Use LESS than competent Oil????"
I DIDN'T and HAVEN'T!!!
I have said, "Use what SUBARU recommend" ...................
By the way, Oil Vapourisation ............... BRILLIANT!!!!! Another addition to my little book of ScoobyNet Bollox!!!
Alongside the **** Oil Change and the HeatSoak myths I have tears running down my face now ..... I'd better check my car - just in case all my oil has vapourised!!!!
Oh my god its GONE ....... into thin air
I very rarely say this, but, I am FPMSL ................
Pete
31 January 2006, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
I cannot get that oil as easy as the equally good Comma - Subaru Main Dealer used to charge me £25 for 5 Litres ...... the Comma comes in at £15.
I just get 35+ mpg without trying .........
I reckon it's the skill of the driver? 100% anticipation of the road ahead = no need to use brakes or accelerate = good service life from brakes = excellent mpg figures ...........
It's all sooooo simple really ......
Pete
I just get 35+ mpg without trying .........
I reckon it's the skill of the driver? 100% anticipation of the road ahead = no need to use brakes or accelerate = good service life from brakes = excellent mpg figures ...........
It's all sooooo simple really ......
Pete
G.
31 January 2006, 08:46 AM
#50
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Originally Posted by GrahamG
Pete. where you live? I will personally pay you to drive my car with a full tank until empty to see what figures you can get. the car is totally standard a the mo so will be very interesting! fancy the challenge!?!
G.
G.
A full tank?? Thats 350 miles of driving you know
.......How was your car run-in and what is the mileage on it?
Are the tyres sitting at 42psi and have you taken the roof-rack off??
Pete
31 January 2006, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
You KEEP getting the wrong end of the stick, my friend ........
Please point me to where I said, "Use LESS than competent Oil????"
I DIDN'T and HAVEN'T!!!
I have said, "Use what SUBARU recommend" ...................
By the way, Oil Vapourisation ............... BRILLIANT!!!!! Another addition to my little book of ScoobyNet Bollox!!! Alongside the **** Oil Change and the HeatSoak myths
I have tears running down my face now ..... I'd better check my car - just in case all my oil has vapourised!!!!
Oh my god its GONE ....... into thin air
I very rarely say this, but, I am FPMSL ................
Pete
Please point me to where I said, "Use LESS than competent Oil????"
I DIDN'T and HAVEN'T!!!
I have said, "Use what SUBARU recommend" ...................
By the way, Oil Vapourisation ............... BRILLIANT!!!!! Another addition to my little book of ScoobyNet Bollox!!!
Alongside the **** Oil Change and the HeatSoak myths I have tears running down my face now ..... I'd better check my car - just in case all my oil has vapourised!!!!
Oh my god its GONE ....... into thin air
I very rarely say this, but, I am FPMSL ................
Pete
31 January 2006, 08:50 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by pslewis
OK, what is the cost difference if the Oil in question was £15 for FIVE litres??
Oilman NEVER answered the question why the Expensive Oil comes in FOUR litres???
I suspect it is to rip-off the punter a 2nd time ................ (not by Oilman, he just sells it - but by the manufacturer of said expensive oil!)
Pete
Oilman NEVER answered the question why the Expensive Oil comes in FOUR litres???
I suspect it is to rip-off the punter a 2nd time ................ (not by Oilman, he just sells it - but by the manufacturer of said expensive oil!)
Pete
It's so they can all drive *really* expensive cars that DO need to be run on the expensive stuff.
42 PSI?!?!?! Owwwww!
NS04
31 January 2006, 08:51 AM
#53
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Originally Posted by pslewis
You are VERY close to me .................
A full tank?? Thats 350 miles of driving you know .......
How was your car run-in and what is the mileage on it?
Are the tyres sitting at 42psi and have you taken the roof-rack off??
Pete
A full tank?? Thats 350 miles of driving you know
.......How was your car run-in and what is the mileage on it?
Are the tyres sitting at 42psi and have you taken the roof-rack off??
Pete
I can't tell you how the car was run in. It has 56000 miles on it. not sure what the tyres are sitting at. but if there flat it will only be at the bottom..
31 January 2006, 08:52 AM
#54
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Originally Posted by pslewis
OK, what is the cost difference if the Oil in question was £15 for FIVE litres??
Oilman NEVER answered the question why the Expensive Oil comes in FOUR litres???
I suspect it is to rip-off the punter a 2nd time ................ (not by Oilman, he just sells it - but by the manufacturer of said expensive oil!)
Pete
Oilman NEVER answered the question why the Expensive Oil comes in FOUR litres???
I suspect it is to rip-off the punter a 2nd time ................ (not by Oilman, he just sells it - but by the manufacturer of said expensive oil!)
Pete
PRO S comes in 5 ltrs.
G.
31 January 2006, 08:57 AM
#55
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Pete,
as I said I am a masochist so I must be posting this for some reason
I am not talking about theoretical issues here - and for my tuppence worth you really have shown your complete lack of expertise here in spite of your expert qualifications.
Vapourisation may well be more Scoobynet bollocks however it is easily measurable. Get yourself down to any track day - whether it is Scoobies, Cossies, Evos, indeed ANY turbo car.
And then seek out the cars utilising catch cans.
And then ask each driver with a catch can how much oil it is collecting during the day. Most of this oil is coming out the breathers as vapour.
Ask anyone involved in motorsport and ask why they do not use return systems on breathers - could it be oil vapour contaminating the inlet charge - I wonder.
So you still have not answered my question as you were laughing too much.
As you know about oil as you are a self-proclaimed expert with a certificate. Why is that so called expensive oils do not vapourise whilst so called competent cheaper oils do? Or is it that the viscosity index is only one dimension of an oils performance?
as I said I am a masochist so I must be posting this for some reason
I am not talking about theoretical issues here - and for my tuppence worth you really have shown your complete lack of expertise here in spite of your expert qualifications.
Vapourisation may well be more Scoobynet bollocks however it is easily measurable. Get yourself down to any track day - whether it is Scoobies, Cossies, Evos, indeed ANY turbo car.
And then seek out the cars utilising catch cans.
And then ask each driver with a catch can how much oil it is collecting during the day. Most of this oil is coming out the breathers as vapour.
Ask anyone involved in motorsport and ask why they do not use return systems on breathers - could it be oil vapour contaminating the inlet charge - I wonder.
So you still have not answered my question as you were laughing too much.
As you know about oil as you are a self-proclaimed expert with a certificate. Why is that so called expensive oils do not vapourise whilst so called competent cheaper oils do? Or is it that the viscosity index is only one dimension of an oils performance?
31 January 2006, 09:01 AM
#56
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by Rannoch
Pete,
as I said I am a masochist so I must be posting this for some reason
I am not talking about theoretical issues here - and for my tuppence worth you really have shown your complete lack of expertise here in spite of your expert qualifications.
Vapourisation may well be more Scoobynet bollocks however it is easily measurable. Get yourself down to any track day - whether it is Scoobies, Cossies, Evos, indeed ANY turbo car.
And then seek out the cars utilising catch cans.
And then ask each driver with a catch can how much oil it is collecting during the day. Most of this oil is coming out the breathers as vapour.
Ask anyone involved in motorsport and ask why they do not use return systems on breathers - could it be oil vapour contaminating the inlet charge - I wonder.
So you still have not answered my question as you were laughing too much.
As you know about oil as you are a self-proclaimed expert with a certificate. Why is that so called expensive oils do not vapourise whilst so called competent cheaper oils do? Or is it that the viscosity index is only one dimension of an oils performance?
as I said I am a masochist so I must be posting this for some reason
I am not talking about theoretical issues here - and for my tuppence worth you really have shown your complete lack of expertise here in spite of your expert qualifications.
Vapourisation may well be more Scoobynet bollocks however it is easily measurable. Get yourself down to any track day - whether it is Scoobies, Cossies, Evos, indeed ANY turbo car.
And then seek out the cars utilising catch cans.
And then ask each driver with a catch can how much oil it is collecting during the day. Most of this oil is coming out the breathers as vapour.
Ask anyone involved in motorsport and ask why they do not use return systems on breathers - could it be oil vapour contaminating the inlet charge - I wonder.
So you still have not answered my question as you were laughing too much.
As you know about oil as you are a self-proclaimed expert with a certificate. Why is that so called expensive oils do not vapourise whilst so called competent cheaper oils do? Or is it that the viscosity index is only one dimension of an oils performance?
If you are racing cars around a track, I expect you to KNOW which Oils to use ............
What we are talking here is misleading new posters who just use their cars as I do .....
Pete
31 January 2006, 09:01 AM
#57
Originally Posted by M1BJR
Where are you cut/pasting this from mate? Or is it your own words?
I enjoy a technical read, but without attributing an article to an author it cannot be taken as truely meaningful. Anyone authoring such an important technical article must surely be peer reviewed.....
Kind regards,
Steve
I enjoy a technical read, but without attributing an article to an author it cannot be taken as truely meaningful. Anyone authoring such an important technical article must surely be peer reviewed.....
Kind regards,
Steve
If it is someone else's article I will state that.
Cheers
Simon
31 January 2006, 09:05 AM
#58
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Originally Posted by pslewis
A full tank?? Thats 350 miles of driving you know .......
Pete
.......Pete
Only 350 miles on a full tank - most drivers on here could that - it is under 27 miles per gallon
I thought you got much better mileage than that!
31 January 2006, 09:08 AM
#59
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by GrahamG
Pete,
PRO S comes in 5 ltrs.
G.
PRO S comes in 5 ltrs.
G.
Any P&P costs involved??
Pete
31 January 2006, 09:09 AM
#60
Originally Posted by pslewis
OK, what is the cost difference if the Oil in question was £15 for FIVE litres??
Oilman NEVER answered the question why the Expensive Oil comes in FOUR litres???
I suspect it is to rip-off the punter a 2nd time ................ (not by Oilman, he just sells it - but by the manufacturer of said expensive oil!)
Pete
Oilman NEVER answered the question why the Expensive Oil comes in FOUR litres???
I suspect it is to rip-off the punter a 2nd time ................ (not by Oilman, he just sells it - but by the manufacturer of said expensive oil!)
Pete
Silkolene PRO, Motul 8100, Amsoil, Total Quartz come in 5 litres.
The main reason for the move to 4L is the number in a carton which is 4.
4x4L = 16kg, 4x5L = 20kg and I think you will find that it is now considered that 16kg is a safer lifting weight for H&S reasons than 20L but then again you may know more about H&S than I do.
Granted Mobil1 and Castrol are always in 4L.
Cheers
Simon