Cranial osteopathy
#31
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I have to say for once that IMO OllyK has made some good points. Babies bones when they are only days/weeks old are constantly changing,moving around etc. How do you know Osteopathy in this instance was the cure?
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I'm trying to find studies of the efficacy of Cranial Osteopathy and they are somewhat lacking. What I did find was a study to see if there was anything to support the mechanism that isclaimed to be behind it working. This study is here (pdf)
The abstract is as follows:
Bolding by me, which suggests that my seach for any scientific evidence that cranial osteopathy works is not likely to be forthcoming.
I'll re-itterate that visiting a "quack" is down to personal choice, but if you do go, go with your eyes open.
The abstract is as follows:
We assess the mechanism purported to underlie the health treatment regime labeled "cranial osteopathy" or "craniosacral therapy." We then summarize all published reports on interexaminer reliability associated with this modality, reanalyze some previously published data, and critique Upiedger'si often-cited study.
Our own and previously published findings suggest that the proposed mechanism for cranial osteopathy is invalid and that interexaminer
(and, therefore, diagnostic) reliability is approximately zero. Since no properly randomized, blinded, and placebo-controlled outcome studies have been published, we conclude that cranial osteopathy should be removed
from curricula of colleges of osteopathic medicine and from osteopathic licensing examinations.
Our own and previously published findings suggest that the proposed mechanism for cranial osteopathy is invalid and that interexaminer
(and, therefore, diagnostic) reliability is approximately zero. Since no properly randomized, blinded, and placebo-controlled outcome studies have been published, we conclude that cranial osteopathy should be removed
from curricula of colleges of osteopathic medicine and from osteopathic licensing examinations.
I'll re-itterate that visiting a "quack" is down to personal choice, but if you do go, go with your eyes open.
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Originally Posted by weapon69
I have to say for once that IMO OllyK has made some good points.
Babies bones when they are only days/weeks old are constantly changing,moving around etc. How do you know Osteopathy in this instance was the cure?
#34
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The doctor/midwife at the time didn't recomend anything and had it been down to them would have left him how he was. See my above post, this is now not the case and I believe many parents are now advised to see a cranial osteopath after they have had a baby delivered by ventouse.
As for my comment on the 3 bones, that was the simplistic explanation put to us at the time so as not to have to give us a lesson on biology - the 3 bones relating to the 3 largest plates that form the skull, excluding all the much smaller bones. It was these 3 large plates that are of concern as these when jarred cause pressure and pain.
The number of sessions is lengthy because the changes take time to make permanent. The changes show on the first session but initially those changes will only last maybe a couple of hours or maybe a day or two depending on what it is thats being worked on. For my son the bones were being massaged apart in simplistic terms but where they were used to being in that positon they would return gradually to that postion. Just like any type of physio, it takes time to heal muscle/bone damage.
No read my posts again, both appearance changes and mentality changes were visible immediately (within a couple of hours of the session ending).
It may well be that science has shown that cranial osteopathy for other conditions hasn't been that effective but I am talking about particular physical condition that it worked very well for, and by the looks of it I am not the only one on here to have seen such a positive result from the treatment.
As for my comment on the 3 bones, that was the simplistic explanation put to us at the time so as not to have to give us a lesson on biology - the 3 bones relating to the 3 largest plates that form the skull, excluding all the much smaller bones. It was these 3 large plates that are of concern as these when jarred cause pressure and pain.
The number of sessions is lengthy because the changes take time to make permanent. The changes show on the first session but initially those changes will only last maybe a couple of hours or maybe a day or two depending on what it is thats being worked on. For my son the bones were being massaged apart in simplistic terms but where they were used to being in that positon they would return gradually to that postion. Just like any type of physio, it takes time to heal muscle/bone damage.
No read my posts again, both appearance changes and mentality changes were visible immediately (within a couple of hours of the session ending).
It may well be that science has shown that cranial osteopathy for other conditions hasn't been that effective but I am talking about particular physical condition that it worked very well for, and by the looks of it I am not the only one on here to have seen such a positive result from the treatment.
#35
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At the end of the day I don't have to justify my beliefs to anyone as I saw the benefits of my money that I chose to spend. It just angers me that other parents might be being put off such treatment by people who have never seen it at work and who are rubbishing it.
As the saying goes, don't knock it until you have tried it. If after the first session you think its a waste of money then thats your decision, at least you will have given it a chance. Also not all cranial osteopaths are going to be as good as the one I took my son too. He is very well known for his expertise and I may not have got such good results from a lesser practised cranial osteopath.
As the saying goes, don't knock it until you have tried it. If after the first session you think its a waste of money then thats your decision, at least you will have given it a chance. Also not all cranial osteopaths are going to be as good as the one I took my son too. He is very well known for his expertise and I may not have got such good results from a lesser practised cranial osteopath.
Last edited by Bravo2zero_sps; 22 February 2006 at 04:01 PM.
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The number of sessions is lengthy because the changes take time to make permanent. The changes show on the first session but initially those changes will only last maybe a couple of hours or maybe a day or two depending on what it is thats being worked on. For my son the bones were being massaged apart in simplistic terms but where they were used to being in that positon they would return gradually to that postion. Just like any type of physio, it takes time to heal muscle/bone damage.
You say you went to several sessions, in which case as OllyK said (in as many words), he may have grown out of his problem.
I went to a cranial osteopath at the clinic you mention B2Z and it turned out to be the biggest waste of money! My condition wasn't helped but it was relaxing for about an hour afterwards. There are a lot cheaper ways of relaxation than the osteopath!!!!
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I am talking about a specific condition that is now recognised as being helped by seeing a cranial osteopath. You went to see one in the hope that it may work on something that has no remedy. It didn't work therefore there was no point going back.
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Originally Posted by **************
And what part of "I saw the physical shape of his head change" do you not understand? I think seeing the ridge in his head be got rid of is a little more than giving him a nice head rub
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B2Z-i suggest you do you research a little more in depth. A babies head, when newborn is incredibly soft and when manipulated it will change shape and then go back to as it was again soon after.
You seem to believe Cranial Osteopathy is some sort of miracle cure for babies. I disagree.
You seem to believe Cranial Osteopathy is some sort of miracle cure for babies. I disagree.
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Originally Posted by **************
The doctor/midwife at the time didn't recomend anything and had it been down to them would have left him how he was.
See my above post, this is now not the case and I believe many parents are now advised to see a cranial osteopath after they have had a baby delivered by ventouse.
As for my comment on the 3 bones, that was the simplistic explanation put to us at the time so as not to have to give us a lesson on biology - the 3 bones relating to the 3 largest plates that form the skull, excluding all the much smaller bones. It was these 3 large plates that are of concern as these when jarred cause pressure and pain.
2 frontal bones, 2 parietal bones and 1 occipital bone.
Seeing as the occipital is at the back of the skull and the other 4 all come together to form a cross shape meeting at anterior fontanelle, it is rather difficult to see how only 3 bones were involved, the ridge you describe suggests all 4 were involved along the coronal suture and hence why I asked for the clarification. The mention of 3 bones suggested the meeting of the parietal bones with occipital at the Lambdoid suture.
The number of sessions is lengthy because the changes take time to make permanent.
No read my posts again, both appearance changes and mentality changes were visible immediately (within a couple of hours of the session ending).
And the visual signs apart from the change in the shape of his head with the ridge going were the immediate
It may well be that science has shown that cranial osteopathy for other conditions hasn't been that effective but I am talking about particular physical condition that it worked very well for, and by the looks of it I am not the only one on here to have seen such a positive result from the treatment.
Your appeal to poularity does not mean you, or the others are right. You have seen an effect and you are assuming the cause. You "may" be right, you may not, but you don't seem to keen to acknowledge there are other possibilities.
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Originally Posted by **************
At the end of the day I don't have to justify my beliefs to anyone as I saw the benefits of my money that I chose to spend. It just angers me that other parents might be being put off such treatment by people who have never seen it at work and who are rubbishing it.
As the saying goes, don't knock it until you have tried it. If after the first session you think its a waste of money then thats your decision, at least you will have given it a chance.
Also not all cranial osteopaths are going to be as good as the one I took my son too. He is very well known for his expertise and I may not have got such good results from a lesser practiced cranial osteopath.
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Originally Posted by **************
I am talking about a specific condition that is now recognised as being helped by seeing a cranial osteopath. You went to see one in the hope that it may work on something that has no remedy. It didn't work therefore there was no point going back.
#45
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Correct I am not going to admit other possibilities because I was there and saw the changes for myself that were immediate and not down to growing up or healing of its own accord. Not unless you are now saying all this was just coincidence and all of a sudden completely unrelated to the treatment my son just got miraculously better just after having the treatment
The whole point was so that it didn't heal on its own, ie the bones didn't fuse while they were jarred. They couldn't have unjarred on their own due to the pressure that had been put on them by ventouse delivery. They needed to be massaged apart (massages as in how it looked when they do the head feeling).
And please explain my appeal to popularity? I went to try this treatment for my son as I was concerned for his health. Had it not been suggested to me I would not have known about it. It did exactly what I was told it would do and thats why I now recomend it to other parents if they have had a child born by ventouse.
The whole point was so that it didn't heal on its own, ie the bones didn't fuse while they were jarred. They couldn't have unjarred on their own due to the pressure that had been put on them by ventouse delivery. They needed to be massaged apart (massages as in how it looked when they do the head feeling).
And please explain my appeal to popularity? I went to try this treatment for my son as I was concerned for his health. Had it not been suggested to me I would not have known about it. It did exactly what I was told it would do and thats why I now recomend it to other parents if they have had a child born by ventouse.
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B2Z- i've been looking on some websites concerning cranial osteopathy and the damage as well as the good it has done in babies is frightening. Put it this way, i wouldn't take my baby to one.
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Originally Posted by **************
Correct I am not going to admit other possibilities because I was there and saw the changes for myself that were immediate and not down to growing up or healing of its own accord.
Unless somebody is qualified in a field, in this case paediatrics then they really don't know if what they saw was normal or not. The lack of ANY empirical evidence relating to cranial osteopathy suggests that any observed effect is more than likely natural, if it did work as effectively as claimed, then they would no doubt be queuing up to prove to the rest of the medical community how effective this treatment was. The lack of research, even by the oteopaths speaks volumes. Add the "supernatural" underpinnings to the explanations behind how it works and we really do have a cause for concern.
Not unless you are now saying all this was just coincidence and all of a sudden completely unrelated to the treatment my son just got miraculously better just after having the treatment
The whole point was so that it didn't heal on its own, ie the bones didn't fuse while they were jarred. They couldn't have unjarred on their own due to the pressure that had been put on them by ventouse delivery. They needed to be massaged apart (massages as in how it looked when they do the head feeling).
And please explain my appeal to popularity?
"by the looks of it I am not the only one on here to have seen such a positive result from the treatment"
"I am talking about a specific condition that is now recognised as being helped by seeing a cranial osteopath"
No proof just claims along the lines of "lots of people think this, so it must be right"
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Originally Posted by **************
Absolute rubbish, it is fact as I saw it happen, so to me it is fact, not belief.I physically saw change. That is not belief.
At the end of the day I don't have to justify my beliefs to anyone
For any given condition, if left untreated 1 of 3 things will happen:
1) It gets better
2) It stays the same
3) It gets worse
The alt med responses to these 3 occurences are
1) We cured it (see this case)
2) We arrested it
3) You need more treatment
Even in case 1 where the patient does get better, it peeves me that the quacks are taking money off people while they wave their hands around, dish out sugar pills and let the body get on with healing itself.
I'd like to point that in the case of muscle injuries or dislocated joints, an osetopath or chiropractor may be able to offer very real benefit, but then so can a physiotherapist or a masseur.
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I think Joolz replied to the fact that they had a child delivered by ventouse delivery, experienced similar symptoms to what my son had and also went to a cranial osteopath where they saw similar results to what I did. Thats not popular belief but another example of a specific condition being treated in the same manner and having the same results.
And no I wont change my mind because I know what happened, I was there and I saw it. You weren't and therefore can't comment.
And no I wont change my mind because I know what happened, I was there and I saw it. You weren't and therefore can't comment.
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You rubbish it all you want, i'll praise it all I want. The problem here is you are trying to put people off making a decision on it for themselves and instead just taking your word for it being a rip off. This from someone who has no first hand experience of it either being beneficial or not being beneficial.
At least both myself and Joolz on here are praising it from first hand experience and recomend parents who have had ventouse delivered babies check out the treatment and find a well recomended cranial osteopath, not just somone out of the yellow pages.
At least both myself and Joolz on here are praising it from first hand experience and recomend parents who have had ventouse delivered babies check out the treatment and find a well recomended cranial osteopath, not just somone out of the yellow pages.
#52
Interesting stuff, I must admit I would normally be very sceptical but it seems to have helped this other child I mentioned at the beginning of the thread.
However, please remember I asked about this with regard ear infections and not to do with a mis-shaped skull. My daughter was born by section and therefore didn't have the trauma of a "normal" birth.
edited spelling
However, please remember I asked about this with regard ear infections and not to do with a mis-shaped skull. My daughter was born by section and therefore didn't have the trauma of a "normal" birth.
edited spelling
Last edited by MattW; 22 February 2006 at 06:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by **************
I think Joolz replied to the fact that they had a child delivered by ventouse delivery, experienced similar symptoms to what my son had and also went to a cranial osteopath where they saw similar results to what I did. Thats not popular belief but another example of a specific condition being treated in the same manner and having the same results.
Just another uncontrolled incident that more than likely was just a natural recovery.
And no I wont change my mind because I know what happened, I was there and I saw it. You weren't and therefore can't comment.
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Originally Posted by **************
You rubbish it all you want, i'll praise it all I want. The problem here is you are trying to put people off making a decision on it for themselves and instead just taking your word for it being a rip off.
This from someone who has no first hand experience of it either being beneficial or not being beneficial.
At least both myself and Joolz on here are praising it from first hand experience and recomend parents who have had ventouse delivered babies check out the treatment and find a well recomended cranial osteopath, not just somone out of the yellow pages.
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Originally Posted by MattW
Interesting stuff, I must admit I would normally be very sceptical but it seems to have helped this other child I mentioned at the beginning of the thread.
However, please remember I asked about this with regard ear infections and not to do with a mis-shaped skull. My daughter was born by section and therefore didn't have the trauma of a "normal" birth.
edited spelling
However, please remember I asked about this with regard ear infections and not to do with a mis-shaped skull. My daughter was born by section and therefore didn't have the trauma of a "normal" birth.
edited spelling
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A noble effort by OllyK as ever, but using the scientific method to assess the efficacy of alternative medicine could be compared to using it to assess religious belief systems. The arguments on either side tend to appeal to those with a suitable world view to accept them.
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One difference there though John is that I didn't know anything about the alternative treatment before I went along. I went with an open mind to find out at the initial consultation, not brain washed because its popular so thought oh I'll have some of that like Olly K likes to assume or by comparing it to religious beliefs and followings.