Cranial osteopathy
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Originally Posted by **************
And there speaks the World renowned expert on cranial osteopathy and how its all a con ![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
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Originally Posted by john banks
A noble effort by OllyK as ever, but using the scientific method to assess the efficacy of alternative medicine could be compared to using it to assess religious belief systems. The arguments on either side tend to appeal to those with a suitable world view to accept them.
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Originally Posted by **************
One difference there though John is that I didn't know anything about the alternative treatment before I went along.
I went with an open mind
I went with an open mind
to find out at the initial consultation, not brain washed because its popular so thought oh I'll have some of that like Olly K likes to assume or by comparing it to religious beliefs and followings.
I'm not brain washed, I just like to see evidence that something works, you haven't shown any. Who is the one that is claiming emphatically that it works and will accept there are no other possible explanations?
Osteopathy as a "medical discipline" hasn't shown any evidence that the cranial element does anything. Many osteopaths don't think it works (see my earlier links) and the only studies that have been done show that it doesn't do anything. I'm not asking for much, but you like so many other lovers of alt med refuse to supply any evidence and we all know why, it's hard to produce something that doesn't exist.
#64
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Originally Posted by OllyK
Give me the evidence, the unbiased clear as day evidence gathered under controlled conditions.
I don't have a control group as I was fortunate enough not to have two children with the same problems, and hence would not have the unethical dilemna of deciding which one to treat and which one to be my control guinea pig left in pain and unable to sleep outside of an upright position without screaming.
As for dismissing the possibility of my child sleeping through the night for the first time ever (this is as radical as moving from 4x2 hour sleeps in a 24 hour period to 1x10 hour and a couple of short daytime naps) as some normal run-of-the-mill coincidence that you can conveniently dismiss, well... words fail me.
The original question in Post #1 was this
"Anyone know anything about Cranial osteopathy. Someone has suggested it may help our youngest who has frequent ear infections."
Bravo and I both believe we know about how cranial osteopathy has made a tremendous difference in our lives and that of our children. You are adding what seems like an informed medical opinion blasting the entire science (or medicine or quackery or whatever else you want to call it). Down to the poster to form his own opinions, and make a decision, but that doesn't make our own ones wrong and deluded. As for the sanctimonious BS regarding "tea and sympathy" I can assure you I havn't been feeding my baby mugs of PG Tips.
Joolz
edited for grammar
Last edited by jbryant; 22 February 2006 at 09:32 PM.
#65
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Would you like to translate that in to English?
Lover of alt medicine? I don't think so somehow. This is the only form of alternative medicine I have ever tried. And it wasn't really an alternative, it was the only choice as our dear NHS although aware of the damage a ventouse delivery can cause actually do bu66er all to see if any treatment is needed after having one.
So are you saying all alternative medicine is a hoax/con? If you are that means you don't believe acupuncture works? Funny I thought acupuncture was widely accepted as being successful in treating various conditions?
#66
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I took my little boy and he was very calm after every appointment.
The osteopath was gentle and yet the shape of my sons head changed.
He didn't cry, he wasn't upset and my tense baby became so much happier. That what we needed... I would have paid any price to give him that.
I don't care if its mumbo jumbo.
My child was in disstress and made calmer by having a few simple treatments thats enough proof for me.
I don't care what you want to call it.... it was worth every penny for me and my little boy and thats what matters.
cath
The osteopath was gentle and yet the shape of my sons head changed.
He didn't cry, he wasn't upset and my tense baby became so much happier. That what we needed... I would have paid any price to give him that.
I don't care if its mumbo jumbo.
My child was in disstress and made calmer by having a few simple treatments thats enough proof for me.
I don't care what you want to call it.... it was worth every penny for me and my little boy and thats what matters.
cath
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So still nothing new being added then?
http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/inde...sacral_Therapy
http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/inde...sacral_Therapy
Originally Posted by http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#anecdotal
Anecdotal evidence
One of the simplest fallacies is to rely on anecdotal evidence. For example:
"There's abundant proof that God exists and is still performing miracles today. Just last week I read about a girl who was dying of cancer. Her whole family went to church and prayed for her, and she was cured."
It's quite valid to use personal experience to illustrate a point; but such anecdotes don't actually prove anything to anyone. Your friend may say he met Elvis in the supermarket, but those who haven't had the same experience will require more than your friend's anecdotal evidence to convince them.
Anecdotal evidence can seem very compelling, especially if the audience wants to believe it. This is part of the explanation for urban legends; stories which are verifiably false have been known to circulate as anecdotes for years.
One of the simplest fallacies is to rely on anecdotal evidence. For example:
"There's abundant proof that God exists and is still performing miracles today. Just last week I read about a girl who was dying of cancer. Her whole family went to church and prayed for her, and she was cured."
It's quite valid to use personal experience to illustrate a point; but such anecdotes don't actually prove anything to anyone. Your friend may say he met Elvis in the supermarket, but those who haven't had the same experience will require more than your friend's anecdotal evidence to convince them.
Anecdotal evidence can seem very compelling, especially if the audience wants to believe it. This is part of the explanation for urban legends; stories which are verifiably false have been known to circulate as anecdotes for years.
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Originally Posted by **************
So are you saying all alternative medicine is a hoax/con? If you are that means you don't believe acupuncture works? Funny I thought acupuncture was widely accepted as being successful in treating various conditions?
Again you belief that acupuncture is widely accepted by mainstream (Western) medicine is not reflected by previous research, but feel free to list the UK hospitals that use it as a first line treatment.
Acupuncture claims all sorts of abilities and the mechanisms (like cranial osteopathy) claimed for how they work (if they do) are nothing short of absurd. Feel free to quote the recent BBC2 Horizon program, but please first do some digging and read up on the numerous rebuttals of the poor experimental design and poor observational skill that were in place.
Again, I accept acupuncture may have an effect - if I stick a needle in you and cause pain, it's going to have that effect if nothing else and the brain responds to pain and releases endorphins. So acupuncture may be of some small use in minor pain relief, but I'm not sure that inflicting pain for short term pain relief is exactly ethical and I doubt that the actual physiological improvements caused directly by the treatment are any better than "tea and sympathy".
You don't seem inclined to do much reading around the subjects you raise, but there are a number of articles here that may shed some light on the subject. You should also be aware that if you are a Blood Donor, you cannot donate for 6 months after receiving acupuncture (or a tattoo or piercing etc).
#70
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OllyK - were you dropped on your head at birth or something? Maybe if your mum had had you treated by a Cranial Osteopath you wouldn't have turned out to be such an annoying and argumentative individual! ![Lol1](images/smilies/lol1.gif)
P.S. Treatment was covered in full by our medial insurance. So that proves it's NOT quackery then.
![Lol1](images/smilies/lol1.gif)
P.S. Treatment was covered in full by our medial insurance. So that proves it's NOT quackery then.
![Luxhello](images/smilies/luxhello.gif)
Last edited by Suresh; 23 February 2006 at 08:36 AM.
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http://www.medicdirect.co.uk/clinics...tep=4&pid=1347 - Point 20
Cranial osteopathy, the massage of the small bones of the skull, is a technique more particular to those who have suffered brain injury. You are advised to discuss such interventions fully with your doctor and with people who have experienced the treatment under question before engaging a therapist; these techniques are often expensive and their effects may be disappointing.
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Originally Posted by Suresh
OllyK - were you dropped on your head at birth or something? Maybe if your mum had had you treated by a Cranial Osteopath you wouldn't have turned out to be such an annoying and argumentative individual! ![Lol1](images/smilies/lol1.gif)
![Lol1](images/smilies/lol1.gif)
P.S. Treatment was covered in full by our medial insurance. So that proves it's NOT quackery then.
![Luxhello](images/smilies/luxhello.gif)
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but feel free to list the UK hospitals that use it as a first line treatment.
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
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Originally Posted by **************
Ah I see, medicine/treatment only works if administered in an NHS hospital! Wow you have an incredible faith in our wonderful NHS. I sure as hell don't for very good personal reasons. I must remember that when I get treatment done privately that's not availbale on the NHS (normally for cost reasons) that its all rubbish and a con as its not being provided by the NHS! ![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Straw Man fallacy - there are only 40 or so common logical fallacies and you seem to be working your way through them all rather than provide any evidence.
#75
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Originally Posted by **************
Ah I see, medicine/treatment only works if administered in an NHS hospital! Wow you have an incredible faith in our wonderful NHS. I sure as hell don't for very good personal reasons. I must remember that when I get treatment done privately that's not availbale on the NHS (normally for cost reasons) that its all rubbish and a con as its not being provided by the NHS! ![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Just because something doesn't have conclusive medical evidence does not mean that it does not have any positive effect on the well-being of those who undergo treatment. Yes there are quacks out there who claim that C.O. will cure AIDS and other such baloney, but there are idiots in mainstream as well.
Belief can be a powerful thing (just look at the mania induced by multiple religions). Proof to me is based my findings on the results I've seen thorough my own experiences with my boy that were a direct result of cranial osteopathy. I don't know what DBPC testing is, but it hasn't helped my son, whereas cranial osteopathy has. Yes I know. "Prove it" will be your response.
More people in this thread are lending their weight to the fact that this branch of medicine has improved the quality of life for their children. I suppose that's just down to popularity, hysteria and sheep mentality again in your opinion?
Joolz
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Originally Posted by jbryant
No I don't have faith in our wonderful NHS system either, as it failed my son (see post 64, which you have chosen to ignore or skip). Hence the reason why many people, including myself, turned to 'alternative medicine'.
Just because something doesn't have conclusive medical evidence does not mean that it does not have any positive effect on the well-being of those who undergo treatment.
Yes there are quacks out there who claim that C.O. will cure AIDS and other such baloney, but there are idiots in mainstream as well.
Belief can be a powerful thing (just look at the mania induced by multiple religions).
Proof to me is based my findings on the results I've seen thorough my own experiences with my boy that were a direct result of cranial osteopathy. I don't know what DBPC testing is, but it hasn't helped my son, whereas cranial osteopathy has. Yes I know. "Prove it" will be your response.
And proof is not obtained from anecdotes, however valuable those experiences may be to you personally.
More people in this thread are lending their weight to the fact that this branch of medicine has improved the quality of life for their children.
I suppose that's just down to popularity, hysteria and sheep mentality again in your opinion?
Joolz
Joolz
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Originally Posted by DazW
& Another vote for it here
OllyK ...Im guessing you dont have any kids?
OllyK ...Im guessing you dont have any kids?
#80
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Originally Posted by OllyK
Red herring fallacy - wow you lot really are coming out with them. How does my having children or not, effect how effective CO is??
![Brickwall](images/smilies/brickwall.gif)
Suresh
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I still haven't found any peer reviewed scientific papers confirming the effiacy of CO. You can't say I'm not open minded at least. However, yet more papers found on how it is bogus
http://faculty.une.edu/com/jnorton/P...rticle2005.pdf - general paper about how the mechanism claimed are unsupportable.
http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/...x/v6n1/s11.pdf - document by a midwife.
http://faculty.une.edu/com/shartman/sram.pdf - article about the mechanism for CO being unsupportable
http://faculty.une.edu/com/jnorton/letterPT.pdf - article by Professor S. Hartman (Osteopath) explaining that CO has no place in osteopathy and is as comparable to osteopathy as astrology is to astronomey.
And various other articles:
http://www.ncahf.org/articles/c-d/cranial.html
http://www.cda-adc.ca/jcda/vol-66/issue-10/564.pdf
http://www.ebm-first.com/link.php?link=299
http://www.ebm-first.com/link.php?link=99
http://faculty.une.edu/com/jnorton/LinksCranial.html
http://www.chirobase.org/05RB/BCC/11d.html
http://faculty.une.edu/com/jnorton/P...rticle2005.pdf - general paper about how the mechanism claimed are unsupportable.
http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/...x/v6n1/s11.pdf - document by a midwife.
Is there any basis to CST?
A basic knowledge of anatomy — including knowing that the bones of the skull
(cranium) fuse during infancy — should be enough to refute CS therapy. But, as is often the case with complementary and alternative medicines, well-established scientific facts are disputed or even refuted, and there is little compulsion to provide scientific evidence to support the alternative theory. So
flying in the face of scientific fact, CS therapists believe that the cranium does not fuse or ossify its sutures until well into later life, suggesting that through the manual manipulation of individual cranial bones they can influence health or disease.
It is of course true that a baby’s head is compressed during the birth process. The skull, however, is designed to adapt to the pressure exerted on it during birth and remoulds into its normal shape in a child’s early months and years. It is also true that some babies suffer brain injuries while still in the womb or while being born, but this is rare.While we can know these things for
sure, evidence that CST can positively influence the outcome of any trauma caused before, during or after birth simply doesn’t exist.
...
There has been little scientific research into CST, and no valid scientific trials
demonstrating its effectiveness have been held. A systematic review of the available evidence was undertaken in 1999, where the reviewers reported that the quality of the literature available was of poor methodological quality, was highly variable, lacked consistency and did not allow any logical ‘positive’ conclusions regarding craniosacral therapy. They concluded that ‘there is insufficient scientific evidence to recommend craniosacral therapy to patients, practitioners or third party payers for any clinical condition’
(Kazanjian et al, 1999).
...
A report published in autumn 2001 on the effectiveness of chiropractic spinal manipulation found that spinal manipulation had no appreciable effect on babies suffering from colic in comparison with babies who receive a placebo (tender loving care) under controlled conditions (Olafsdottir et al, 2001).
A basic knowledge of anatomy — including knowing that the bones of the skull
(cranium) fuse during infancy — should be enough to refute CS therapy. But, as is often the case with complementary and alternative medicines, well-established scientific facts are disputed or even refuted, and there is little compulsion to provide scientific evidence to support the alternative theory. So
flying in the face of scientific fact, CS therapists believe that the cranium does not fuse or ossify its sutures until well into later life, suggesting that through the manual manipulation of individual cranial bones they can influence health or disease.
It is of course true that a baby’s head is compressed during the birth process. The skull, however, is designed to adapt to the pressure exerted on it during birth and remoulds into its normal shape in a child’s early months and years. It is also true that some babies suffer brain injuries while still in the womb or while being born, but this is rare.While we can know these things for
sure, evidence that CST can positively influence the outcome of any trauma caused before, during or after birth simply doesn’t exist.
...
There has been little scientific research into CST, and no valid scientific trials
demonstrating its effectiveness have been held. A systematic review of the available evidence was undertaken in 1999, where the reviewers reported that the quality of the literature available was of poor methodological quality, was highly variable, lacked consistency and did not allow any logical ‘positive’ conclusions regarding craniosacral therapy. They concluded that ‘there is insufficient scientific evidence to recommend craniosacral therapy to patients, practitioners or third party payers for any clinical condition’
(Kazanjian et al, 1999).
...
A report published in autumn 2001 on the effectiveness of chiropractic spinal manipulation found that spinal manipulation had no appreciable effect on babies suffering from colic in comparison with babies who receive a placebo (tender loving care) under controlled conditions (Olafsdottir et al, 2001).
http://faculty.une.edu/com/jnorton/letterPT.pdf - article by Professor S. Hartman (Osteopath) explaining that CO has no place in osteopathy and is as comparable to osteopathy as astrology is to astronomey.
And various other articles:
http://www.ncahf.org/articles/c-d/cranial.html
http://www.cda-adc.ca/jcda/vol-66/issue-10/564.pdf
http://www.ebm-first.com/link.php?link=299
http://www.ebm-first.com/link.php?link=99
http://faculty.une.edu/com/jnorton/LinksCranial.html
http://www.chirobase.org/05RB/BCC/11d.html
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Originally Posted by Suresh
You have no personal experience - therefore your opinion is somewhat irrelevant. That you are acting like a pedantic twit is just the icing on the cake
. Now go away and let those who have some experience have their say!
Suresh
![Brickwall](images/smilies/brickwall.gif)
Suresh
Rather than trying to shut me up with insults - just show me the evidence, that'll work a treat.
If my car is broken I ask the opinion of a mechanic, not of somebody who had a car repaired once.
#83
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You seem to be confusing Cranial Osteopathy and Cranial Sacral Thearapy.
AFAIK they are not the same.
Like I say, if heathcare providers in both Holland and Switzerland to my knowledge *do* pay for CO / CS treatment, then what is it that they seem to know that you don't?
Suresh
AFAIK they are not the same.
Like I say, if heathcare providers in both Holland and Switzerland to my knowledge *do* pay for CO / CS treatment, then what is it that they seem to know that you don't?
Suresh
#84
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Originally Posted by OllyK
If my car is broken I ask the opinion of a mechanic, not of somebody who had a car repaired once.
![Luxhello](images/smilies/luxhello.gif)
#85
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There has been little scientific research into CST, and no valid scientific trials
demonstrating its effectiveness have been held.
demonstrating its effectiveness have been held.
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
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Originally Posted by Suresh
You seem to be confusing Cranial Osteopathy and Cranial Sacral Thearapy.
AFAIK they are not the same.
AFAIK they are not the same.
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranial_osteopathy
Cranio-sacral therapy is based on the same principles but the practitioners are not qualified osteopaths
Like I say, if heathcare providers in both Holland and Switzerland to my knowledge *do* pay for CO / CS treatment, then what is it that they seem to know that you don't?
Suresh
Suresh
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Originally Posted by Suresh
How about if you don't have a car then why do you think you need to see a car mechanic? ![Luxhello](images/smilies/luxhello.gif)
![Luxhello](images/smilies/luxhello.gif)
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Originally Posted by **************
Oh well because of this that means it must be bullsh!t then
I forgot scientists know everything there is to know and if they don't know about it/tested it then it can't possibly be true
That shows just how open minded scientists are then doesn't it? ![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Scientists are open minded, I'm open minded. My current opinion is based on the current empirical evidence available to me, which says CO does not work. If new evidence is provided that shows it does work, then I revise my view.
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Originally Posted by MattW
Interesting stuff, I must admit I would normally be very sceptical but it seems to have helped this other child I mentioned at the beginning of the thread.
However, please remember I asked about this with regard ear infections and not to do with a mis-shaped skull. My daughter was born by section and therefore didn't have the trauma of a "normal" birth.
edited spelling
However, please remember I asked about this with regard ear infections and not to do with a mis-shaped skull. My daughter was born by section and therefore didn't have the trauma of a "normal" birth.
edited spelling
It seems on this thread CO has been on infants 6 months in age, I assume the plates fuse together and cannot be moved at a certain age, what is that?
Since my daughter is 28 months is it worth investigating CO?
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3 rolleyes smilies and a whole bag full of sarcasm, but STILL no evidence
![Luxhello](images/smilies/luxhello.gif)
There has been little scientific research into CST, and no valid scientific trials
demonstrating its effectiveness have been held.
demonstrating its effectiveness have been held.