simo

so would the Vectra be quicker if the extra dosh was spent on mods

evonorth

The scooby's are definatley catching the evo's around the track, but as a package the evo is as far in front as ever

gazbrook

"Cough" poor mans M3 ;-)

john banks

MattOz has a nice E46 M3

Rabid

Surely the news here isn't that the Impreza is crap but that Vauxhall are making some good cars?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

You'd think so, wouldn't you.

Ns04

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Can you explain this? The Impreza has always been the better all- round package than the more track focused Evo IMO.

Ns04

MattOz

Gaz,

You're aboslutely right mate. However, you still need to find about £35k for a decently spec'd 330i M Sport, so there not cheap! It's a fantastic car, and certainly a better day to day proposition than the others.

Cheers
Matt

Paul3446

Originally Posted by MattOz
When Subaru make an Impreza that actually handles, then they'll beat the Evo. Until then, not a hope in hell. I'll take the 330i thanks.

Funny that, I thought the Impreza's handling made it one of the quickest cars from A to B on a country road. I must have imagined that then.

Rabid

Paul, I'd argue that it's the cars grip that makes it nippy on a country road, particularly in marginal situations. Most Imprezas don't have good handling IMHO.

In any case it's perfectly possible to think of numerous cars that will keep an Impreza honest on those type of road.

Another case of someone confusing handling with grip I think.

Paul3446

Surely you can't seperate grip from handling? If one car grips better than another, it will go round corners quicker. Where you could argue they differ is that if that grip let go suddenly and spat you into the ditch as in a rear wheel drive car. I don't think that's the case with the Impreza though, as the 4WD makes it one of the safest cars also. So if it's the grippiest and the safest, how can it handle badly?

Steve vRS

Handling is subjective. Grip does not always equate to handling. An MX-5 does not grip well but has entertaining handling.

Steve

Dracoro

Impreza's handle ok (nothing special), however they do have great grip, great traction and great roadholding. These are what makes it fast.

Handling on the other hand is about feel and how it behaves. As stated above, the MX5 is a much better handling car than the Impreza, however it doesn't have the best grip/traction or roadholding so won't be as fast.

TonyFlow

My 5 Type R has "entertaining" handling, my old UK MY98 scoob understeered like an oil tanker

Paul3446

But what you are talking about are handling characteristics, if an Impreza goes round a corner quicker than MX5 then it handles better. Just because it understeers (not much fun) rather than (oversteers) lots of fun, doesn't mean it handles worse. I think you are mistaking handling for enjoyment.

I had more fun in my old Nissan 200SX than my Impreza, but it didn't handle better.

MattOz

Paul,

Handling is far removed from grip. I've had a couple of Imprezas, and whilst they are undoubtedly quick across country and on give and take roads, they don't handle particularly well. Try getting from any Impreza and into an Elise/MX-5/M3/Noble etc. Those cars handle. Sure they may not have as much grip as an Impreza, but they handle.

Tony,

My STI5 TypeR was very entertaining! Way better than my previous UK turbo. It still didn't handle that well though, and was too snappy on the limit. And, like all Imprezas, it understeered too much (initially) to be proper fun.

Matt

Steve vRS

You are mistaking handling ability for grip and traction.

To complicate things further, on a dry road, I bet my Clio Cup grips better than an Impreza however the Impreza has better traction as it will not spin it's wheels if you give it too much power out of the apex.

Steve

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Hi paul,

If you define handling in objective terms, i.e. traction, lateral grip etc.. then a Scooby handles brilliantly. However, most people define handling in subjective terms i.e the way a car "feels" and communicates what it is doing to you, it's tendancy to certain corner attitudes etc... In this respect, the scooby (and Evo) are generally regarded as inferior to some other cars with significantly lower objective limits. The lack of throttle adjustability is often highlighted as a fault with Scoobies, and that they understeer dramatically at the limit....even though those limits are likely to be higher than some cars you can steer on the throttle.

At the end of the day, it's mostly pub talk and more relevant for track antics. You may be able to steer an MX5 on the throttle, but you wouldn't want to on the road as a matter of course , trust me!! Its the car that is the most stable and forgiving that usually comes out trumps on the road and that's where the rice rockets shine!!

That make sense?

Ns04

Paul3446

I understand what you are both saying, but I still say you are talking about handling characteristics, yes an Elise has nice balanced handling, it may be more responsive and provide better feedback, but the quickest car through a corner is the one that handles best. If your Clio spins its wheels through lack of grip, that mean's it is not handling as well as a car that doesn't spin it's wheels.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

All other things being equal (drivers, tyres etc), your clio should have more entry speed, but will then be left wanting just when the scooby is firing out of the apex. Little Go karts those Clios.....

Ns04

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Let me put it like this.

Take an Elise on a track and you'll be slower, but you'll have more fun.

Grip, traction etc... set the time
Handling determines the smiles

Of course if you're the kind of person where the buck stops with the figures, and the laptimes are what put the bigest smile on your face then it's gotta be the quickest that handles the best.

Ns04

Paul3446

Put another way, if you were an F1 driver and had the choice of two cars, one had lovely handling but tyres that didn't grip, and the other understeered but had sticky tyres which meant it could corner quicker, which one would you go for. The answer has to be the one with most grip, and if you are a good driver you want the fastest car through the corner.

Dracoro

So I put great big fat tyres on and old ford cortina so that it carries greater cornering speed than an impreza, that makes it better handling? NO.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

But you're illustrating my point: if you define handling by which is fastest, then the one with the higher grip traction power etc... wins, but that is competition, only a fool would choose something slower! That doesn't mean he might not be wishing that he could have a bit more oversteer or a bit less roll or dive on braking! F1 is also a poor example of competition as car contol is much less of a factor than outright grip from the tyres and power. Handling would be much more relevant in rallying where the cars attitude is constantly being battled over...there, issues of communication and feel become much more important.

However, we're talking road use here, or maybe casual track use. You don't always drive a car to its objective limits, you drive a car to your perception of its limits. The degree of correspondence between the two tells you how well a car handles IMHO. Most people will never get anywhere near the limits of a Scooby or Evo on the road, even though they think they are; your perception of its limits falls short of its actual limits. Drive an MX5 and it tells you when you're overstepping the mark and why; you're perception of its limits correspond with its limits- thats why it's regarded as a better handling car, if a slower one.

A good driver will not always want the fastest car, they will relish getting the most out of whatever they've got.

NS04

Paul3446

Quote:
So I put great big fat tyres on and old ford cortina so that it carries greater cornering speed than an impreza, that makes it better handling? NO.

If you think that putting big fat tyres on a Cortina would make it corner quicker than an Impreza then give it a go.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

According to some on here, a std Cortina would beat a scooby comfortably!!

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what a mag -or anyone else- says about a car; it's whether it suits you that counts.

Ns04

Paul3446

Time to agree to disagree me thinks. But I stand by my comment that whoever said "when Subaru make a decent handling car" was talking out of his ****!

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

So you should. I agree on that: it's nonsense to say that the Impreza doesn't handle. I think my MY99 is very well set up for UK roads. It's the same kind of tosh we get on here -mostly from people that have never driven one- that say that scoobies aren't fast etc...

Ns04

Paul3446

I've got no complaints about my MY00 either!

I love it.

Andy M3

I am currently piloting a MY04 Range Rover 4.4. It grips better than any car I have ever driven. However, it does not handle, maybe better than the old range rover, but no where near as good as my old 300lb/ft skoda fabia that had no grip this side of any speed limit.

I think everyone has managed to illustrate the differences and of course there is opinions mixed up in that lot too.