furrydice79

what came through my letterbox this morning,, top gear magazine.. evo v golf v sti....hhhmmmm..good reading,,,

Paul3446

I guess put another way, if you watched an Impreza take a corner at 70mph and then an MX5 taking the same corner at the same speed, the Impreza would look on rails and the MX5 would look pretty out of shape. You would immediately think the Impreza was the better handling car, but the MX5 driver might be having more fun.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Before he runs out of talent and puts it in a ditch! It's all very well these magazines harping on about oversteer, but it's not what you really want for the road where, more often than not, oversteer means an emergency!!

If the rally drivers make a pigs ear out of getting a car around a bend sideways occassionally, in cars specifically designed for it, then can your average driver be counted on to get it right on a wet night, with traffic coming the over way?

Thought not.

That's why, for practical reasons, I'd argue that the Impreza's understeer is a good thing and that its handling is generally well set up for the road.

Ns04

Dracoro

Lets not go in to over vs understeer arguments. Once you've gone too fast into corner and lost it, all it means is that you either go head first or back first into the oncoming car.

Paul3446

"Slow in, fast out", best piece of advice I ever had when I was younger!

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

True, but there is only so much a car maker can do to protect the person behind the wheel from themselves. They have to assume that people will bother to learn the limits of the car slowly and progressively apply the power to find the limit; it's understeer that is then the far safer way of telling someone to ease off a bit.

Of course, if you just throw the car into a 90 degree turn at 70 on your first go, then -as you say- under or oversteer simply determines what end enters the ditch first

Ns04

Gutmann pug

Reading the artical it appears that the VXR would quite happily sit behind both the scoob and the EVO unless either were driven to 11 tenths and in danger of ending up in a ditch. Interesting reading considering its front wheel drive and the roads in question are the ones the scoob and EVO have always excelled on......

On-track both were quicker than the VXR but thats hardly relevant as its not real word, its also the arguement always used on here when the EVO is quicker

I wonder what the VXR would have been like on sticky tyres like the scoob wore ...... hmmmmmm

I wouldnt buy one but it should put paid to any arguements on here about the scoob being much quicker in the twisties

DazW

iTrader: (1)

& on those same roads i seem to remember a P1 giving a 550 a hard time ...& a Clio Cup doing the same to an M6 ...& a Gti 6 keeping an R34 GTR honest

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Exactly, but oddly you're ok to suggest that a hot hatch can keep a scooby/Evo honest in the real world, but suggest that a scooby/Evo could keep a supercar honest in the same conditions and you're talking out your asrse

Ns04

GrollySTI

Yes - but I'm not impressed with Top Gears knowledge.

WRX STI SL - really?

mikepaul

Mate, compared to most fleet cars the Subaru WRX/STi very good residuals.

I had a Mondeo ST220, cost £21000, sold one year later (privately for 10K, dealer offered £8500 on a trade-in). Even with 20k miles that's over 50% depreciation in one year, forget the quoted figured in what car, which are totally inacurate.

I don't think any of the other mainstream euro rivals are any better (with the exception of the BMW 330i which like most german cars have a very high resell value).

I would never sell a car within two years, no matter what make. if you sell a car within 2 months you will loose a ton of money, however you need to phase your statements more carefully as they mislead people into think a Subarus hves crap residuals like a Mondeo/Vectra; which is not the case.

I owned a Honda Accord Type R (very rare), when I sold it I had a queue of people wanting to buy it (even with 75,000 miles on the clock, depreciation was £2K per year, so I lost 6K in 3 years), it was the opposite of my experience with the Ford. I don't expect the Subaru to be much different and I'm intend to keep the scooby atleast 3 years to spread the depreciation.

Regards,
MP

Gutmann pug

I thought it was a good write up in EVO. Talking about real world roads, fast sweeping bends / slower more technical areas and bumpy stuff too. I was impressed how well the VXR did. Infact the write up had it keeping up without too much issue.
We are talking about the roads which subaru and Evo's have prided themselves on being the benchmark on for a good few years......

mikepaul

And ALOT slower than an standard WRX, Mr Poor man's M3.

Gutmann pug

Pretty scarey when you work out depreciation alone ...... £25K car, keep it 3 years, worth £15K if your lucky = £277 per month in depreciation alone.

No point having it sat in the garage doing 90 miles per week ...... 90 miles per week = nearly £1 per mile in depreciation, let alone fuel, insurance etc.

Hence me cutting my looses and driving a £350 banger for a while

Sport160

Sometime though there is more to it than just the numbers.

Edcase

Can I make a point? It's easier to follow on country b-roads than it is to lead. If you put the VXR in front and have the sti and evo follow, I'm sure they have no problem keeping up.

Likewise if you put the Sti / Evo in front, the VXR will also keep up. I have previously 'kept up' with numerous exotica in my old modded WRX including a F355 (who from the black lines he was leaving and flames from the exhaust on gear change was undoubtedly 'trying' ) and a Carrera 4S, and have kept up with Scoobies in my Passat tdi 130.

My bet is that if you were able to time the Evo / Scooby / VXR over the same 5 mile stretch of B-road with no traffic, the times would be more pronounced than it appears when driving nose to tail on public roads.

Ed

Eckmcmann

has anyone else noticed that recently sn's been about arguing about every petty thing one person says black, so another says white its funny though

Gutmann pug

Pretty sure it says the VXR was leading for a fair chunk of the time? So that theory is out of the window.......

Edcase

Er...how do you work that one out? Just cos it was leading the pack doesn't disprove my theory. If it was pulling away from the pack measurably then yes. I am talking about timing the three cars completely seperately over the same stretch of (closed, obviously ) public b-road with the same driver.

KiwiGTI

60% retained value is pretty good

Gutmann pug

Not sure I follow what you are saying?

The point of the thread was that the VXR was a match for the other cars on the roads they tested them on. The only time the scoob and Evo could out perform was when the driver took risks which could easily have put the car off the road. Thats my interpretation on the artical. Is yours different to mine then?

Gary

Edcase

No, our interpretation is exactly the same, I am just giving a slightly different explanation / suggestion as to the results.

Re-read my post again. My point is we have seen in countless 'test' with groups of cars on the road that often comparatively underpowered cars can keep up with supposed exotica on the roads. My point is its easier to follow, and that over the space of a closed b-road (hill-climb style, if you will) the time difference would be more pronounced than driving bumper to bumper on public b-roads. I think it would be more reflective of the track time differences.

Gutmann pug

I understand where you are coming from other than the fact that all cars took their turn to lead and follow. Therefore if one was making an easier job of it then it would have pulled away when in front and found it easier when behind?

On-track is something different entirely. The risks the artical was talking about can be taken with relative low risk involved. If you get it wrong you go across the grass, on the road you kill a heffer in a field

Just thought it would be an interesting topic as generally the scoob is as quick on the road as the EVO but slower on-track. This time the tables are turned with a different contender.

Gary

Edcase

No but yeah but no but that's my point

With the VXR in front, it didn't pull away, but I wouldn't expect it to in the same way that I wouldn't necessarily expect the STi or Evo to exactly because the people behind have an easier job following. I have experienced exactly the same phenomenon many times in many cars on similar roads.

Agreed re: track.

Gutmann pug

I can feel a vxr v wrx thread coming on

Rabid

You mean along the lines of 'I managed to keep up with a VXR in my WRX, I thought they were supposed to be fast', sort of thing?

I'd imagine a well driven WRX would be just about be able to keep a VXR honest.......

Gutmann pug

I was joking...........

MBK

I have to agree with Edcase on this one - put the same cars down a clear country road and the difference would be clear. Though I will keep away from any comment on the VXR cos I know nothing about it other than what was written in evo!

I know for example that my T20'd STi is easily 20 seconds faster across a 7mile stretch of clear mountain road (the derestricted mountain on the Isle of Man before the anti-speed lobby pounce!) than the same car when it was a simple STi PPP but if I was behind a STI PPP I wouldn't be able to pass and nor would I leave much of a visual gap if the STi PPP was following me. Its strange on Scooby runs there is never really much difference betwen any of the cars from standard WRX's through to big BHP stuff, straight line yes, A and B roads its all pretty tight - I reckon they should put a 'standardisation' car in their tests - like a Passat TDi, I doubt it would be far behind. And my final thought is that its actually the road that is the limit rather than the ability of the car in these on road tests - hence the very different story on the track.

turbodan

Its mainly on the longer bends the VXR was keeping up, on the tighter bends the AWD vehicles were pulling away which makes sense. 4WD isnt of any great advantage at longer high speed sweeping bends. The VXR was also being outgunned power wise. The track times speak for themselves (real world or not).

Normal drivers will be quicker in the AWD vehicles.

jeremy

Theres something else missing in all of this. THE DRIVERS. Neither Barker nor Meaden- the experienced able drivers, were there. They have there new guys doing these tests now, each have much muh less experience and ability than the afoementioned. Barker and meaden know just how fast the best cars can go down those roads, they have references. The new folks do not.