Leslie

Having had three major operations in the last nine years, I think I am qualified to comment here.

The care and attention I received from the doctors and nurses and all staff at the sharp end has been outstanding and there is no way that I can complain in any way. They are run off their feet but they just keep going and do all they can for the sake of the patients.

It is very obvious that they are short staffed and also that there is a lack of money for basic equipment etc. in the wards etc.

The impression is that if there is so much money being thrown at the NHS, then it is coming to a screeching halt in the hands of the Trusts and its administrators. Only a small proportion appears to be going to the sharp end where the real work is being done.

We know that the managers are reluctant to tell us how larger their pay rises were and also how many more of them have been recruited in true "Parkinson's Law" fashion.

I wonder why it is necessary to have almost one administrator to every member of actual hospital staff!

Perhap's Oldfella who says he works in NHS administration could explain it all to us.

Les

OllyK

clue

scooby_matt

Obliged

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

I have to say, Pete, you hit a new low with this one

Alcazar

Chip

He most certainly has though I very much doubt that he believes in what he is saying.

Chip

Deep Singh

The NHS has got no better under NL, take my word for it. It is a grim place, and people die everyday because of below standard care. We are all to blame. We are obsessed with this dinosaur that is a tax based NHS.

People complain that private treatment can only be afforded by the rich, but they spend the amount it costs on sky tv/****/booze etc.

Stupid govts won't give you some benefit for having private insurance, this would encourage more to have private insurance and therefore leave the NHS as a safety net for the really poor. Australia works like this.They also do a similar pot of money system for schooling, hence most go to private schools


For anyone here who thinks they can't afford private healthcare just think how much you spend on cars/fuel/insurance/****/booze etc. MOST can afford it, but have been brainwashed otherwise. There should be tax breaks though so you don't pay twice.

dpb

Quite right ..
also people are of course increasingly living longer presenting more demand - but money spent on adminstrators is labours bugbear.

AudiLover

Actually I take back the comments I made earlier. When I had a job interview with skanska they were saying how bad a state hospitals are untill they decide to become a trustee and they maintain the buildings.

Oldfella

iTrader: (3)

Nail squarely hit there, well said.

Leslie, I realy do not have the time or inclination to respond to your invitation to explain the shortcomings of the NHS. And I do not consider myself an "Administrator" thank you.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

There are obviously good hospitals and bad hospitals but I think that someone who has worked in the NHS for some time will be well placed to have a worthwhile opinion of the true situation in their own hospital and within the NHS generally.

ChrisB

A good spot by the The Devil's Advocate blog.

£68 an hour?

Oldfella

iTrader: (3)

Harvey, I agree but quite frankly the thread so far has been far too general for me to take part in. The topic is absolutely massive and suspect I could spend the rest of my life posting on it.

My general view supports Deep Singh's post, that fundamentally the financing and political influence is crippling the current system.
What people appear to loose sight of is the fact that the health system does not benefit from unlimited resources, consequently heath care is by definition, rationed.

If anyone posts with specific points, I will attempt to respond.

If I do it must be remembered that it will often be in my opinion only!

Here's food for thought, are people willing to pay an extra 10 pence in the pound tax?

oik

Before your thought fodder, and quick smart agreement to health care to those that can afford it, what do you do in the NHS that qualifies you to be it's spokesperson?

warrenm2

First of all, we've paid a lot more than that (NI and indirect taxation increases coupled with slippage of allowances) and been promised a better service and have not got it.

Secondly if you compare death rates with other developed countries (eg heart disease and cancer from Eurocare 3) the UK does very poorly.

Thirdly if you separate out the amount of tax that pays for the NHS and give me a voucher instead, I would be able to buy private health insurance that would offer better value. (similar principle applies to education)

The Government is a poor service provider full stop. It has no corrective forces acting on it. It is over staffed and over controlled. Wastage doesnt matter. It is not the way to provide healthcare in the 21st century.

Oldfella

iTrader: (3)

Firstly, I have not offered nor wish to be their spokesperson. I can merely offer my opinion which is based on working within the NHS for many years.

Oldfella

iTrader: (3)

Agree entirely, no argument with anything you say. One question though, when you say "over stafffed" what do you mean?

warrenm2

As many administration/management types as doctors and nurses in the NHS and too many civil servants for Gvmt generally - all those diversity officers, gay promotion officers etc

Paul3446

The government were warned when they came to power to reform the NHS before ploughing money into it, but they didn't listen and so it's just money pouring down the drain.

I wouldn't mind paying more tax if I thought it would help, but the health service is as bad, if not worse than ever and my disposable income is going down year on year thanks to extra taxes.

It's not just the health service, schools have got a funding crisis as well, where has all our hard earned money gone exactly?

My council tax has doubled, but my rubbish collections have halved.

Petrol prices are just ludicrous.

Stamp duty and Inheritance tax have not moved with inflation.

NI has not only gone up 1% but had the ceiling removed. I think my NI contributions are about £2,800 a year. Fortunately I get free private health care at work, but guess what, I'm taxed £1,400 for the priviledge!

Oh and in 1997 I had an endowment worth a small fortune and the prospect of a generous pension!

Good old new labour, they really have got us in great shape.

Deep Singh

Paul and Warren are spot on! If I could I'd tell you of the millions wasted in my hospital alone, but I'd probably be sacked

Paul3446

You could just PM PSLewis to shut him up!

Paul3446

Actually a fair chunk of my tax probably goes to people claiming long term incapacity benefit, 60,000 in 1997, up to 1,500,000 under New Labour.

Don't know about Bird flu, there must be a bad-back pandemic in this country.

Oldfella

iTrader: (3)

Couldn't quote you the exact numbers but they do appear disproportionate. What has to be remembered is that only a small number are employed as clinical managers. Large numbers are involved in "data collection" and processing as a means of feeding the beast (Government)

scoobynutta555

Makes for grim reading some of the replies on here. It seems it is not just the NHS that has had wads thrown at it in the hope of improvements. Another example of government largesse is the education system and the misguided policy of ploughing more students into universities.

Seems to me the state have taxed taxed and taxed again (and local govt, just look at your council tax bill too), thrown money at something failing or underperforming and hoped for some magical cure. Seems to me large "old labour" state funded behmoths are just some black hole where all the money disappears yet the only thing to emerge is spurious league tables telling all that listen what a good job everyone is doing.

Time the whole thing was seriously looked at again. I dare say when a free (point of entry) NHS was introduced we had a much younger population that had much lower life expectations. Now we have a very old society living a lot longer. Compare the financial control say of Tescos to the NHS and the amount of wasted money the NHS goes through comparitively must be eye popping. I dare say private companies would make a much better fist of healthcare than the stats quo.

Why havent politicians mulled over quite radical ideas like introducing mass reforms into the NHS and education, and while Im here you can throw in benefit payment too, to the extent that private companies are allowed much more of a free reign.

Why cant the state be unburdened by mass moneypits and give us our money so we can invest in private companies that would be forced to deliver decent services to one and all. Wait in a queue in Tescos for 10 hours to get to a checkout only to be told the tills are closed and I bet the company wouldnt be around for long. Time for heads to roll.

warrenm2

Just as an aside I understand from Tim Worstall (blogger) that the amount you pay into the NHS is £1700 pa and for education is £5000 (I have previously seen this figure as £5500, so believe it to be broadly correct). I phoned BUPA today and as a healthy non smoking 38 year old it would cost me £672pa to have cover (at their Level 2 - which covers all treatments except psychiatric). Now I appreciate I dont get emergency cover for that, but that is due to the structure of health provision in this country. Clearly before 1947 and in the US, private insurance covers emergency care also. So say I round it up to £1100 (or add on another 2/3rds in round numbers) to cover emergency and longer term care - THATS STILL 2/3rds OF THE MONEY IT COSTS FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO PROVIDE A ****TIER SERVICE!!! They are charging you another £600 pa for a service that is illustrated in my 1st post.

If you were faced with that choice in any other walk of life - would you use the NHS?

andyfish

In the UK, 5% of the health care bill is spent on 'administrators' or managers, call them what you will. Compare that to other Western health economies (USA or Australia) where the bill is 15%. You lot want a Rolls Royce service for Ford Fiesta money. You want total inclusion for everyone in health care and you want it for next to nothing. I believe that every patient should be presented with a printed copy of the cost of their health care for every intervention they have - you would then begin to understand the true cost of providing these services. You want the best people to provide the best care and are not willing to pay them properly (unless they are sacred doctors). You want to be seen quicker than ever before if you have illness and you want the latest drug or intervention and the best doctors/nurses/physio/occupational health/podiatry/dentist/chiropodist/radiographer/psychologist/optomotrist etc etc etc. No problem. In a market driven economy if you want to have the best you have to pay market salaries or people go elseswhere. Simple.

So - you will now all be phoning your MP to lobby to pay more tax............................................... ............................................MMM thought not.

Rolls Royce or Fiesta - your choice!

warrenm2

not saying it doesnt cost money to provide decent healthcare, what I am saying is that the NHS is poor value for money and poorly run

jasey

I'll take the £50,000,000,000 Fiesta.

I think that's the right representation of £50 Billion !

Oh - and that's the ******* annual running cost - not the capital cost

Leslie

Oldfella,

I must have got the wrong impression somehow but I was sure you said you were associated with the NHS administration in an earlier post of yours.

It was published a while ago that there were almost as many administrators as there are medical staff at the sharp end of the NHS. Since we have managed to squeeze some answers out of you so far despite your lack of time or inclination to provide them, it is at least revealing but not surprising that a large number of them are engaged in collecting information for this sorry bunch who call themselves a government!

Les

Brit_in_Japan

My sister works for a Health Trust. Although more money is undoubtedly pumped into the NHS now, the benefit is nowhere near proportionate to the extra being spent. In her experience management is poor. In her Trust, the managers didn't know who they had sub-let rooms/facilities to (e.g. opticians, pharmacists etc) yet they were paying all the council tax for those premises. They were even paying council tax for properties they had disposed of. Each year there is a rush to spend money by the end of the financial year because the view is that if they don't spend it all, they will get less money the next year. So come February/March they are committing to expenditure for which no competitive tendering has taken place (even though the rules say they must go through such a process) and is not directly related to quality of medical care.

They also spend money on "consultants" whose advice is often plain wrong, cutting spending in certain areas which causes a short term benefit in cashflow, followed by long term reduction in service and increases in costs as contractors need to be brought in to fix the problems created.

Somewhere around 70% of the NHS budget goes directly on salaries. As NHS salaries have gone up on average faster than inflation, it has taken a disproportionate % of the increased funding made available, 87% no less! In Scotland £225,000,000 extra has been spent on their 3500 consultants in 3 years, or approx £22k each extra per year but there appears to be little evidence that the service they have provided has gone up similarly. British GP's and consultants are the best paid in Europe, so much for the "poor" NHS.

Better management is required to make more efficient use of our money in providing primary care. Can they do that without spending yet more on wasteful bureacracy? Hmmmmmm

ChrisB

Great news